Roof replacement issues (flashing vs. asbestos siding)

[Bone Stock]

Hey everybody, longtime lurker, first time poster. Recently had my roof replaced and I've been trying to chase down all the poor workmanship before paying for the job. Overall, the shingles look pretty well done (from what I can tell) but just about everything else looks like **** or seemingly had corners cut.

The main areas of concern are pretty much all flashing related. There are several dormers and one transition to a lower sloped roof that I have questions about. House has asbestos siding which I think has complicated things since they couldn't easily get step flashing behind it. Only the main dormer appears to have gotten step flashing and all the others look to just have had some existing galvanized strips left in place. They also left a gaping hole where one section of roof meets a wall. Every time I ask for a followup on an issue, I just seem to get one half-assed "fix" after another. I'm looking for some detailed feedback on possible solutions that I can either relay to them or to someone more capable.

I've included before, after, and after after shots to show the progression and where things currently stand. Shingles are Timberline HDZ and location is VA if that helps narrow down applicable code and install methods.

Thanks!

EDIT: More photos in posts #3 and 15

UPDATE: Response from roofer in post #40.

 

[readhead]

Pictures don't show up.

 

[Bone Stock]

Pictures don't show up.

Should be good to go now!

Here's some after their "fixes".

 

[readhead]

Wow. I would be calling some reputable roofing companies and get an idea of how much it will cost to fix that. The siding could be cut and a new Z flashing installed under the siding and over new step shingles. The asbestos complicates things but it is possible to do it right.

 

[Bone Stock]

Wow. I would be calling some reputable roofing companies and get an idea of how much it will cost to fix that. The siding could be cut and a new Z flashing installed under the siding and over new step shingles. The asbestos complicates things but it is possible to do it right.

I’m right there with you on the “wow”. To say I’m not impressed would be a colossal understatement.

Assuming it was possible to get step flashing under the siding, would that negate the need for the z flashing? Seems like that would be the more palatable / achievable route for the majority of contractors since the siding wouldn’t be disturbed.

 

[The Cobbler]

you have a mess on your hands .

 

[readhead]

It looks like the siding was installed right down on the roof so it would be difficult. Is there only one layer of shingles?

 

[Bone Stock]

It looks like the siding was installed right down on the roof so it would be difficult. Is there only one layer of shingles?

Yes, just this new layer of shingles. It was taken down to the sheathing.

 

[Bone Stock]

you have a mess on your hands .

Haha, I agree wholeheartedly. Lots of twists and turns with this house so far.

 

[rustyjames]

Wow. Workmanship type manner certainly doesn't apply here.

 

[Bone Stock]

Wow. Workmanship type manner certainly doesn't apply here.

Yeah, no gold stars for this group. It's rough. Every day on my way home from work I was wondering what surprise they had left me.

I'll post some overall roof pics tomorrow. Might as well get some eyes on the rest of it too.

 

[oldmxracer]

In My 68 years on gods green earth, I have done lots of residential roofing, supervised crews doing several houses a day.

Your job looks BAD and their fixes might have made it worse ?

Were They the cheapest bid ?

Good luck !

 

[Bone Stock]

In My 68 years on gods green earth, I have done lots of residential roofing, supervised crews doing several houses a day.

Your job looks BAD and their fixes might have made it worse ?

Were They the cheapest bid ?

Good luck !

They were not. Pretty middle of the road quote from a well reviewed company.

I agree on the fixes doing more damage than good. Not inclined to have them attempt any more work on it.

 

[nadogail]

Reviews are meaningless, unless you know and have confidence in the reviewer.

For a fee; you can buy a ton of good reviews for your company or bad ones for your competitor.

 

[Bone Stock]

As promised, here are some shots of the roof as a whole. Should be able to get a better idea of how the shingles were laid.

You can see the transition to the shallow slope where the chimney is located. Just below that is the area with the hole in the siding and the screwed and glued flashing.

Follow up question about drip edge as well. It is no longer a code requirement so they did not install it originally. They just left a ~1.5" overhang all around. I asked for them to install some afterwards and if you're sensing a theme here, it was poorly done. Drip edge was installed primarily on the rake edges and was nailed to directly to the fascia boards instead of to the sheathing / under the shingles. How much of an issue is this and does it need to be addressed? You can see some detail in the images in post #3.

 

[Bone Stock]

Reviews are meaningless, unless you know and have confidence in the reviewer.

For a fee; you can buy a ton of good reviews for your company or bad ones for your competitor.

I agree and it seems to have bitten me. Unfortunately, that's really all I had to go on at the time. They are also a "certified installer" with GAF but again, I assume that's just a case of paying some money and getting the plaque.

 

[captain14]

What did the signed contract state for the scope of the work?

Did it includes specific flashing requirements?

How long is the roof run before it hits the chimney?

What was there before their “work” on the chimney area?

 

[Bone Stock]

What did the signed contract state for the scope of the work?

Did it includes specific flashing requirements?

How long is the roof run before it hits the chimney?

What was there before their “work” on the chimney area?

Yes, flashing was included in the contract. Remove roof down to decking and inspect, replace any if needed. Install drip edge per manufacturer, install ice/water shield along gutter line, valleys, perforations per manufacturer, new chimney flashing and pipe collars, new counter flashing where needed.

I'd say probably 15-20 ft. of steeper pitch then the small section of flatter roof. Couple before shots of the chimney attached.

 

[Renegade1LI]

First rule of thumb, remove first two rows os siding so flashing can go up side wall, all the flashing appears to over the siding? Flashing around brick should terminate in a grout joint, not really sure what's going on around the dormers, but you have mess, the after fixes look worse. I wish you luck, maybe you can call the contractor back & nicely explain that you feel there are some problems that need to be addressed. Don't be confrontational try to show them that you really want to work with them to get everything repaired correctly, who knows maybe this was subbed out & the owner isn't aware of how bad it really is. Pays to try the nice approach first.

 

[readhead]

Renegade brings up a good point. A lot of roofing companies don't have their own crews anymore and sub to independent crews. The owner may not know what is happening.

 

[Bone Stock]

First rule of thumb, remove first two rows os siding so flashing can go up side wall, all the flashing appears to over the siding? Flashing around brick should terminate in a grout joint, not really sure what's going on around the dormers, but you have mess, the after fixes look worse. I wish you luck, maybe you can call the contractor back & nicely explain that you feel there are some problems that need to be addressed. Don't be confrontational try to show them that you really want to work with them to get everything repaired correctly, who knows maybe this was subbed out & the owner isn't aware of how bad it really is. Pays to try the nice approach first.

I have been wondering how to effectively get flashing behind the existing siding. Is removal the industry standard or more of a special case on replacement roofs?

What issues does the chimney flashing being sealed to the brick cause? Why the preference for the grout line? Not having to seal the large gaps between the bricks makes sense to me.

I'm working my way up the chain at the moment. I feel like I've been pretty understanding about this, all things considered. I think they next response from them will dictate the direction moving forward.

Renegade brings up a good point. A lot of roofing companies don't have their own crews anymore and sub to independent crews. The owner may not know what is happening.

I will definitely keep that in mind. I had the estimator/coordinator out to the house after the initial install to talk over some issues. He seemed surprised by some of what was there and didn't really push back on any of the requests so he may be seeing all this for the first time too.

 

[Renegade1LI]

If you Google flashing a chimney, you will see how the flashing should be tucked in to the grout joint, it makes a mechanical bond, you should never rely on sealants to waterproof. All flashing starts at the bottom up and should be overlapped, where it goes up a side wall it should be behind the vapor barrier, better job would be to cover the flashing with wheathershield, than cover with house wrap.

 

[captain14]

Here’s copy of YouTube videos so you have an idea what it’s supposed to look like.

Chimney

I’m not sure where the distance is for a cricket above you chimney to divert the water away. Search for ideas on YouTube


Step flashing a dormer example. Shannon is pretty good and not a lot of extra drama.

I agree lots Of contractors write the job up for a price and then hire crews do do the work

A neighbor had a contractor show up, added up everything she wanted and then printed up price in the spot. A crew showed up to do the work hired by the
Original contractor. She did not have any issues.

 

[Sumboodie]

I can't stand half assed **** work.

And when you fuss, then it "being too fussy". No, do the job right and stop doing **** work.

Strive for this... "Perfection is the minimum standard. Any less is not acceptable."

 

[joey1320]

That's a crackhead job.

 

[oldmxracer]

Here’s copy of YouTube videos so you have an idea what it’s supposed to look like.

Chimney

I’m not sure where the distance is for a cricket above you chimney to divert the water away. Search for ideas on YouTube


Step flashing a dormer example. Shannon is pretty good and not a lot of extra drama.

Do not believe every you tube video is the correct way.

 

[Bone Stock]

Thanks for the links, everybody. Been watching through them and we definitely have some work to do ...

I've reached out to the original contractor again and also have scheduled another guy to come out and look things over next week.

 

[WisJim]

The asbestos siding issue shouldn't have prevented the contractor from doing a proper job. One of my sons had his house reroofed and he has asbestos-cement siding, and pointed that out to the bidding roofers. The company that got the job said it was no problem, they had a stock of old-new-stock siding that matched so it there was any damage when they redid the flashing, they could replace damaged pieces. So there are companies out there that can deal with almost anything. The guys did an excellent job on his roof, especially notable on the various porches and single story rooms and dormers that tied into the siding.

 

[Bone Stock]

The asbestos siding issue shouldn't have prevented the contractor from doing a proper job. One of my sons had his house reroofed and he has asbestos-cement siding, and pointed that out to the bidding roofers. The company that got the job said it was no problem, they had a stock of old-new-stock siding that matched so it there was any damage when they redid the flashing, they could replace damaged pieces. So there are companies out there that can deal with almost anything. The guys did an excellent job on his roof, especially notable on the various porches and single story rooms and dormers that tied into the siding.

That’s good to hear it’s not terribly uncommon to do. Gives me some hope.

I do have some smaller pieces of siding that could probably go towards patching that big hole if nothing else. Doubt it’d be anywhere near enough to do all the dormers though.

 

[WisJim]

I should have mentioned that the roofing company that did my son's roof has been a family business for nearly 100 years and they seem to pay attention to what they learned in that time.

 

[AP514]

Wow , that Roof is a total HACK JOB....

 

[matt_i]

We have here the Battle of EverMore.

One can't simply pry on those asbestos siding/shingles to create clearance behind, they are very brittle and likely NLA=no longer available. One has to carefully get the nails out one at a time, I'd even venture that grinding the heads off with a dremel tool might be preferable. Then there could be gaps, there could be a repaint touchup required, etc, etc.

On the ending-edge of the downslope against the wall you need a kickout flashing...more work with extracting siding.

The basic problem is that if the roofer quoted R&R all of that siding above their quote would probably be $5k higher and you'd end up going with someone else who bid lower and would just do it the way they did it....

The chimney looks very sad, that's a "black jack job" (name brand of a roofing sealant poured on thick to avoid doing proper flashing). Proper in my mind is to step-flash under shingles going-up and then notch the mortar courses for a bent-edge counterflashing which is then sealed to the brick by filling same mortar courses back.

 

[Bone Stock]

We have here the Battle of EverMore.

One can't simply pry on those asbestos siding/shingles to create clearance behind, they are very brittle and likely NLA=no longer available. One has to carefully get the nails out one at a time, I'd even venture that grinding the heads off with a dremel tool might be preferable. Then there could be gaps, there could be a repaint touchup required, etc, etc.

On the ending-edge of the downslope against the wall you need a kickout flashing...more work with extracting siding.

The basic problem is that if the roofer quoted R&R all of that siding above their quote would probably be $5k higher and you'd end up going with someone else who bid lower and would just do it the way they did it....

The chimney looks very sad, that's a "black jack job" (name brand of a roofing sealant poured on thick to avoid doing proper flashing). Proper in my mind is to step-flash under shingles going-up and then notch the mortar courses for a bent-edge counterflashing which is then sealed to the brick by filling same mortar courses back.

The siding does seem very brittle so not too surprised that there would be issues around that.

Everybody talks about how there's little issue with just leaving the asbestos siding up but all the complications it brings to routine maintenance never seem to get mentioned. Definitely frustrating to have to deal with.

 

[Bert_]

This is why counter flashing ought to be used more often. It would eliminate this issue.

Right now the only fix is to pull several pieces of siding. If you pull the siding I would definitely insist on counter flashing versus just new step flashing.

 

[Bone Stock]

This is why counter flashing ought to be used more often. It would eliminate this issue.

Right now the only fix is to pull several pieces of siding. If you pull the siding I would definitely insist on counter flashing versus just new step flashing.

Would the siding that needs to be removed be limited to where the roofline meets the wall or everywhere that needs flashing (dormers, etc.)?

What would the stack up be? Siding, step, then counter or slip the step under the siding if feasible?

 

[Bert_]

Would the siding that needs to be removed be limited to where the roofline meets the wall or everywhere that needs flashing (dormers, etc.)?

What would the stack up be? Siding, step, then counter or slip the step under the siding if feasible?

If you can get new step flashing under it great, that's probably the simplest at this point.

If I had a wall without siding on yet I would insist on counter flashing. It makes it so that step and other flashing can be replaced without disturbing the siding.

From the roof up it would go step flashing, counter flashing, siding.

 

[rburke65]

Looks like a **** job to me. I’d have some build inspection before I wrote a check for that job!

 

[mark198]

Yes, flashing was included in the contract. Remove roof down to decking and inspect, replace any if needed. Install drip edge per manufacturer, install ice/water shield along gutter line, valleys, perforations per manufacturer, new chimney flashing and pipe collars, new counter flashing where needed.

I'd say probably 15-20 ft. of steeper pitch then the small section of flatter roof. Couple before shots of the chimney attached.

If you look up the GAF Pro Field Guide you will be able to see all of the manufacturer requirements. Depending on what warranty they sold you they have several requirements they must fulfiil.

Thanks,
Mark

 

[Bone Stock]

If you can get new step flashing under it great, that's probably the simplest at this point.

If I had a wall without siding on yet I would insist on counter flashing. It makes it so that step and other flashing can be replaced without disturbing the siding.

From the roof up it would go step flashing, counter flashing, siding.

Yeah, that makes sense. If I ever go the route of replacing or covering over the existing siding, that will be something to keep in mind.

Looks like a **** job to me. I’d have some build inspection before I wrote a check for that job!

I agree. I have another guy coming to look things over later this week so that should be a good viewpoint on just how bad things are.

If you look up the GAF Pro Field Guide you will be able to see all of the manufacturer requirements. Depending on what warranty they sold you they have several requirements they must fulfiil.

Thanks,
Mark

That's a good point about the warranty, especially knowing how stingy the shingle companies usually are. I have been looking through that guide since all of this started just to familiarize myself with the "correct" way to do things.

 

[Bone Stock]

So quick update, the roofer agrees that the main dormer and wall flashing is unacceptable and are sending a new sheet metal guy out to replace it. There was some pushback on the chimney step flashing and any additional flashing on the two front dormers. I've attached a mid-progress and after shot of one of those. Seems like these would still need to be addressed somehow. You can see the shingles aren't laying flat in the areas directly above the old flashing.

Per chimney: they state they install flashing the way they did mine and stepped. Said usually just band them on smaller chimneys like mine to cover the step flashing. I'm not 100% sure there even is step flashing on mine. Need to climb back up and double check.

Per dormer: they state there is counter flashing under the sill and a continuous flashing that runs along the wall from the top. They said if the flashing wasn't present water would be "pouring into the house". In the mid-progress pic, you can see what they're referencing i.e. it was already there and they added nothing to this aspect of the job. Seems like poor practice to me to simply rely on existing flashing there especially considering that it's most likely decades old. What would be the ideal solution for this area?