Worth picking up? Allen drill press

[rg171352]

I have been looking for a drill press for a while to replace my hf light weight bench top unit. I have been looking at a number of presses and started falling for king sealy Craftsman units.

The craftsman dp I have been chasing has not worked out and I stumbled upon an old Allen dp with auto feed but can’t find out much about it. I will be using it for wood and metal.

Attached are a few photos. Any guidance and thoughts on value are appreciated.

 

[RTM]

This looks looks the same Allen, but I don’t see your model

http://vintagemachinery.org/mfgIndex/detail.aspx?id=3369&tab=4

 

[TC16731]

Allen drill press compared to any Craftsman is night and day. Allen drills are serious industrial machines. Not sure the one in your pics is complete looks like to me its missing it motor.? Not sure what size but being an Allen its heavy. Looks like a neat drill I have a 6 spindle drill from the 1970's. If you have the ability and or desire it would be a great project. From the looks of it , its not a plug and play drill press.

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=7808&pictureid=111722

 

[jabberwoki]

So tell me you`ve grabbed this???????
Just don`t pay too much.

 

[rg171352]

Allen drill press compared to any Craftsman is night and day. Allen drills are serious industrial machines. Not sure the one in your pics is complete looks like to me its missing it motor.? Not sure what size but being an Allen its heavy. Looks like a neat drill I have a 6 spindle drill from the 1970's. If you have the ability and or desire it would be a great project. From the looks of it , its not a plug and play drill press.

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=7808&pictureid=111722

It is missing the motor. Would it be good for in fine use? It looks substantially smaller than the other Allens i have seen photos of.

Jabberwoki. Not yet. The seller wants $300 which seems high for something with no motor and unknown bearings etc.

Rtm. Thank you for the link.

 

[neophyte]

If it’s missing the motor, then you could fit it with a 3phase and VFD for better control.

 

[vssjim]

not to be mean but I'm only paying scrape value for anything not working and I don't see it being sold if you don't take it.

 

[rg171352]

Vssjim. You’re not being mean to me. I don’t want to get taken on a piece of equipment.

 

[rg171352]

If it’s missing the motor, then you could fit it with a 3phase and VFD for better control.

Sadly 3ph is not available as an option for me.

 

[subroc]

What it is can be seen. What they were when new is immaterial. What it could be is unknown.

I love the old stuff. I have and use 60-70 year old drill press, table saw, band saw and a metal lathe.

Obscure machines, while interesting, could be impossible to find replacement parts for. Maybe it just needs a motor, bearings, $100 worth of consumables and 80-120 hours of restoration labor. Then again, maybe something is broken and you will never find the part.

All of that said, in my view, if you don't already know, without asking, if that restoration is the right one for you, then it isn't.

The best of luck to you whatever you decide.

 

[dr_clyde]

Sadly 3ph is not available as an option for me.

The VFD allows you to run a 3 phase motor on single phase input. It also allows you to vary the speed by altering the frequency of the incoming power. Vey handy feature for drills.

3 phase motors are much more common and readily available for machines than single phase.

A VFD on ebay will cost you a couple hundred bucks, and you can probably pick up a motor on the cheap used.

 

[neophyte]

What it is can be seen. What they were when new is immaterial. What it could be is unknown.

I love the old stuff. I have and use 60-70 year old drill press, table saw, band saw and a metal lathe.

Obscure machines, while interesting, could be impossible to find replacement parts for. Maybe it just needs a motor, bearings, $100 worth of consumables and 80-120 hours of restoration labor. Then again, maybe something is broken and you will never find the part.

All of that said, in my view, if you don't already know, without asking, if that restoration is the right one for you, then it isn't.

The best of luck to you whatever you decide.

True, but there's plenty of new stuff that can be hard to find parts for, particularly optional parts that don’t come packaged with the item,
And dome machinery requires a bunch of cleanup and sometimes tweaking to get the item working properly as well.

 

[subroc]

Tweaking and hard to find is an entirely different thing than complete restoration and impossible to find.

Nothing more to say about it.

 

[TC16731]

Fine work that's more to do with you drill chuck and available spindle speeds. In you search for a drill press I would recommend one with a morse taper spindle rather then one with the chuck mounted directly to the end of the spindle. That just gives you more options and can quickly change to what you might need. $300 seems steep for that Allen if you think you up to getting it running offer him $50-100 if he declines walk away and find something else. I agree with subroc if you feel in over your head then maybe this isn't the drill press for you. Your going to easily spend $300 + just to get this thing drilling holes.

 

[TC16731]

If impossible to find stopped every one many of projects would never get done. If it exists someone made it. If someone made it someone can make it again.

 

[subroc]

If impossible to find stopped every one many of projects would never get done. If it exists someone made it. If someone made it someone can make it again.

Of course. Anything can be repaired or restored. We are on a forum called garage journal where the place is full of people who actually fix things.

My only caution to the OP was taking on a machine restoration of 100+ year old machine he should already know if the juice is worth the squeeze.

Asking those in the cheap seats about the merits of that effort on an extremely obscure machine gets him nowhere.

 

[TC16731]

Your right, I just don't want discourage, I don't know rg171352 's age or experience but you don't learn to swim unless your in the pool. A drill press could be his shallow end. I know I've learned a lot by squeezing rotten fruit. I think half my problem is " he should already know " they don't teach this in school.

 

[subroc]

Your right, I just don't want discourage, I don't know rg171352 's age or experience but you don't learn to swim unless your in the pool. A drill press could be his shallow end. I know I've learned a lot by squeezing rotten fruit. I think half my problem is " he should already know " they don't teach this in school.

Well, leaving $300 at a strangers house for the privileged of bringing home some scrap metal shaped like a machine might be a good idea for some. Whether it is his deep end or shallow end, only he can decide. Obscure machines aren't for the faint of heart. It isn't an encouraging or discoursing issue. It is a logic issue. Do I have the chops to repair this thing? In a worse case scenario If I can't fix it without expensive parts manufacture will I eat the cost gladly? The OP was originally looking at Craftsman presses.They are everywhere. So are the parts. A successful restoration is likely.

I am not encouraging or discouraging. Truth be told I don't really care what the OP spends his money on. When someone on the internet asks "if they should buy" anything. My answer is generally sure, why not. But, a restoration is something else. It comes with its own pitfalls. And, 100+ year old restoration is something else again. Far less standardization. Things we consider common today were less common then. He should be able to look at that thing and know if it is the project for him.

I wish the guy the best, whatever he decides.

 

[macgee]

It looks like a vintage small jig borer and not a DP although it can be used for that after a little add on.

My initial thought, is run and get it but then looking much closer at the photo's, the asking price, then asking myself the reason why I would want it and how much money, time and effort will be necessary to get it functioning well? This gives me huge pause and this type of project is something I do regularly full time.


That could be an awesome and accurate DP when running well but it appears its a long way from that in current condition. Not having a motor and more importantly not seeing a motor mount and not being able to see the chuck/collet area and spindle also gives me great pause. The middle pulley also gives me pause, EDIT see below, its a down feed.
I would love this as a DP but it appears that it would need substantial amount of work, effort and cost to return it to good working condition and that's if the important easily non-replaceable bits is not missing, too worn out or damaged.

Not knowing model is also an issue. It definitely say Allen on it. Do you know the Model #? I see another name plate on the left side on body.
Without this also makes it harder finding any photo's, other examples, documents or specs on it to help you get it back in working shape = time comsuming. The bearings is another issue that needs checking. Do you have access to a lathe and mill to make anything if needed?

You say VFD is not possible where you are, where are you located? A small three phase motor connected to a 120v single phase VFD connected to a 120v wall outlet would also be my suggestion and much easier to do than you think to do. BUT you still have other obstacles in front of you to deal with way before even considering a VFD, although it could shortcut/bypass some gear drive issues.
I say its way too expensive for what's needed to be done, maybe $50-$100 max but it also depends what your using it for and how badly your going to need it and how much money & time your willing to invest in it? When fully finished correctly, this machine will be worth substantially more than a typical vintage DP. A good working, vintage, pretty one typically sells for $600-$1K after restoration but time and money spent on it could be similar.

It looks like it could be a vintage fixed table, non-xy made by "Linley" or "jones and shipman" for Allen?

This will be a labor of love with quite a bit of custom fabricating needed but once done, it will be a beautiful and special DP and the darling of your shop. This is far from any K-S Craftsman DP, zero comparison. When working, this is a real machine.

EDIT: The middle pulley looks like it's for a motorized down feed (Very cool!)

 

[rg171352]

I appreciate all of your comments and concerns.

I have not restored or even rebuilt a piece of power equipment of this nature. So, this would be a first. Using an analogy, this would likely be my deep end.

The seller believes the unit is fully worth the asking price, so I don't believe there will be much room for negotiation. It seems as though I have to either buy it or walk away. He has not been able to supply me with a model number (which I believe is stamped into the casting someplace) so that gives me pause. He has said that since Allen is still operating I should be fine. That is a completely fallacious statement. They may be able to tell me where the equipment was originally developed, but they are unlikely to have the parts this could need.

How can I tell what the collet/chuck is? I don't really know what I'm looking at.

I do like the idea of the motorized down feed (maybe I'll burn out fewer bits) and the large number of pulleys and potential speeds.

I don't like the unknown of what I may need to replace and the potential high cost of getting it going.

In the end, I'd like a nice machine that I can reliably use to switch between drilling wood and varying metals including steel, cast bronze, cast iron, and aluminum. It would be nice to get a machine that will survive all I will throw at it, with minimal runnout and maximum reliability. Something that I can perhaps grow into and not out of.

Regarding VFD. I am in a residential neighborhood. I am under the assumption we do not have 3ph available but this is not something I have looked into. I would rather not need to do anything related to our power service.

Thank you all for your help.

 

[gorilla]

That drill press is designed to be used in a production environment where it does one task. It's not a good general purpose drill press. If the purchase price is set at $300.00 I could see close to $1.000.00 in it when your done. I think that you could buy a pretty good import for that money.

 

[metlmunchr]

Honestly, I wouldn't haul that thing home if it was free. Production machinery is run day in and day out until it's worn out or until something breaks that makes it not worth the cost to repair.

As macgee points out, the construction is more similar to a jig borer than to a drill press. Since it doesn't have an X-Y table, chances are there was a fixture on the table to hold a specific part for boring to a final dimension and an operator loaded a part and hit the go button repeatedly on his shift, or two or three shifts.

The biggest problem in actually rebuilding machines from this era (rebuilding to function as new versus rust removal and a paint and polish job that ends up with a pretty but still worn out machine) is that most every bearing is a sleeve bearing. When sleeve bearings wear, part of the wear is typically in the bearing and part is on the shaft. So, you need to replace the shafts as well as the bearings. Shafts are keyed or splined, so, at a minimum you need a milling machine to cut keyways or a mill and a dividing head to cut splines, and obviously a lathe to cut other features on the shafts.

The availability of parts from the original manufacturer is immaterial. Prices are insane. For example, I made a couple small spur gears and a shaft for a DoAll vertical bandsaw with a 3 speed gearbox that was a current model owned by a large production shop. Cost them about $700. DoAll wanted $1900 for the parts, and that's typical of the price levels for parts for true industrial machines.

There seems to be a bumper crop of dreamers around today who think anything old is automatically some valuable antique. The true value of that drill, or boring machine, or whatever the original manufacturer called it, is zero. It's an incomplete, non functioning chunk of cast iron that'll bring perhaps enough at a scrap yard to cover the cost of gas to haul it in. Ask any dozen people who have the necessary equipment and ability to actually rebuild it, and they'll all give you the same valuation.

 

[subroc]

Honestly, I wouldn't haul that thing home if it was free. Production machinery is run day in and day out until it's worn out or until something breaks that makes it not worth the cost to repair.

As macgee points out, the construction is more similar to a jig borer than to a drill press. Since it doesn't have an X-Y table, chances are there was a fixture on the table to hold a specific part for boring to a final dimension and an operator loaded a part and hit the go button repeatedly on his shift, or two or three shifts.

The biggest problem in actually rebuilding machines from this era (rebuilding to function as new versus rust removal and a paint and polish job that ends up with a pretty but still worn out machine) is that most every bearing is a sleeve bearing. When sleeve bearings wear, part of the wear is typically in the bearing and part is on the shaft. So, you need to replace the shafts as well as the bearings. Shafts are keyed or splined, so, at a minimum you need a milling machine to cut keyways or a mill and a dividing head to cut splines, and obviously a lathe to cut other features on the shafts.

The availability of parts from the original manufacturer is immaterial. Prices are insane. For example, I made a couple small spur gears and a shaft for a DoAll vertical bandsaw with a 3 speed gearbox that was a current model owned by a large production shop. Cost them about $700. DoAll wanted $1900 for the parts, and that's typical of the price levels for parts for true industrial machines.

There seems to be a bumper crop of dreamers around today who think anything old is automatically some valuable antique. The true value of that drill, or boring machine, or whatever the original manufacturer called it, is zero. It's an incomplete, non functioning chunk of cast iron that'll bring perhaps enough at a scrap yard to cover the cost of gas to haul it in. Ask any dozen people who have the necessary equipment and ability to actually rebuild it, and they'll all give you the same valuation.

Good post

 

[slowtwitch73]

The seller obviously searched 'Allen drill press' on ebay, saw the high prices for machines nothing like his, and concluded that 300 is what it's worth.

I could see how if you were totally clueless you could come to that conclusion. Feeling charitable today.

 

[macgee]

What others have said made good points and to be honest this is not the DP project for you. Plus the price is way too high. I suggest looking for another DP/project

There could possibly be a lot of fabrication needed to make it work again and if the Ways are worn badly from heavy repeated use then that would totally drain the excitement of restoring it and industrial machines are very guilty of having made many countless cycles while making parts for a company. I've restored multiple machines like this several times and have been surprised finding machines looking like this that were lightly used and returned to being an accurate performer but you wont know until you've look deep into it and know what to look for.

Here's an example of one in good working shape, being used daily as a DP but these would nt be used as your primary DP unless you're making a lot of small high speed accurate holes.

 

[macgee]

While looking for something totally different, look what miraculously came up in the search.

It's $50 cheaper, fully working and in pretty nice shape but no auto feed or front belt cover. A good one to see and compare to. Will now give you a better idea where he other one stands and the parts missing; massive difference between the two and value.

Thats actually a total steal when looking at DP prices in Midwest. I would be all over than one if it was local to me.

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/734704987225568/?ref=search&referral_code=marketplace_search&referral_story_type=post&tracking=browse_serp%3A3fb0e5f7-bdb8-4285-8a70-2448f88d67c7

 

[rg171352]

Thank you all very much for your thoughts and help. After pouring over your comments. You've convinced me that this drill press is not for me. The search will continue!

Thank you!

 

[rg171352]

After posting this, I think I found the winner. It's a Buffalo no. 15 floor model. It's an older one like this:

It has an Emerson electric motor and an atlas/craftsman style table lift. It is supposed to work. Does anyone have any thoughts of what I should check when I go to check it out this weekend?

Also, did you know "Buffalo" still makes DP's? https://www.bmt-usa.com/drills/

 

[rg171352]

http://vintagemachinery.org/photoindex/detail.aspx?id=6427

 

[tool_scrounge]

So a pre 1957 version

 

[rg171352]

Yes. Any thoughts on the pre 57 buffalo 15?

 

[subroc]

When it comes to classic or old or antique tools for restoration and then use, a bit more to it than any thoughts. Is it a good one? Spindle good and straight? Is the mating surface on the taper good and not spun? What did it come with for a chuck? 4 or 5 speed? What did it come with for a motor? Is it good? Planning to rebuild the motor or replace it? Condition of the motor mount? How is the drill table?

Anyway, I think they look great. I expect a good one would make a Jim dandy addition to any shop.

 

[macgee]

I agree with subroc,

Very difficult to say much of anything without much better pictures of that specific drill press, then which model and current condition of that particular drill press otherwise we can only say generally that a a Buffalo dp working well can be nice drill presses and can look great but....

 

[tool_scrounge]

Yes. Any thoughts on the pre 57 buffalo 15?

In general they are nice drill presses presuming it is in good condition. I had a post '57 years ago and thought it was well constructed. I think my mechanic still has it.

 

[rg171352]

Thank you for your insights. Its a bit rough around the edges, however, here is a photo of the buffalo 15.

 

[rg171352]

Photo

 

[subroc]

Looks good.

Good luck with the drill press.

 

[larry_g]

Photo

To me that picture represents a casting kit that is in the $50 to $75 dollar range.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[Cruzan80]

The table lift may be worth the price of admission alone...

Sent from my IN2015 using The Garage Journal mobile app

 

[rg171352]

The table lift may be worth the price of admission alone...

Sent from my IN2015 using The Garage Journal mobile app

That’s exactly why I went for it. If the drill turns out to be junk, the lift table will find its way to a better machine.