Two attached garages, new build, only a single 15a circuit??

[Doward]

This is apparently up to code (I'm told the permits are from 2019, so NEC2014 here in Florida).

I'm just shocked. I have nearly 1200sq ft of garage (2 car garage and RV garage) and just the 8' LEDs I'm installing are going to pull 11a off the only circuit.

I'm raising hell over it, but apparently this is all up to spec.

So, as it always goes, if you want something done right...

My main panel is in the RV garage, and I have 14 spaces left in it. 200amp coming in.

I'm thinking to remove all the outlets, leaving only lights and the garage door openers on the 15a circuit I have now.

Two new runs, 12/2 for 20a, the 2 car garage will have 4 outlets (mid way on each side, then 2 in the back wall, one in each bay).

The 2nd run will be 4 outlets, 2 on the side wall, 1 on the back, 1 on the other side.

Then 3x 220 runs, but have not decided on size there. Thinking 2x 30a (welder and lift) and a 50a for big things.

Maybe a 4th 220 later for vehicle charging...

Anyway, what gives with the barely any power in my garage? My general outline seem sound?

And yes, I'm insane, and plan to fish this all behind the drywall...

It's mine, I want it clean!

 

[NUTTSGT]

That one 15A circuit is probably all that is required by code as a minimum.

The guys, way smarter than me in the electric dept, will chime in.

 

[dcg9381]

1200 sqft garage on 15A sounds nuts to me. But so is the cost of wire these days.
Note, if that structure has a 15A and a separate 200A feed, that's probably not going to fly (though there many be a multi-feed exception in the latest NEC).

If you have an RV, you'll definitely want a 240V @ 50A drop. I like using Siemens Talon sub-panels (exterior) on the wall of an inside garage - they give you a 50A, 30A, and GFI 20A outlet (all breakers and outlets built in) for about $150.

 

[jeepxj]

this is why when someone brags their house was built to code it makes me laugh. built to code just means the absolute bare minimum.

 

[slow]

This is one area that 2017 NEC gets it better forcing at least 1 outlet per garage bay.

 

[engineer2]

One 15 amp is pretty standard for mass-built tract homes. The assumption is that you are just parking your cars in there, and that's all you need for the single bulb fixture and the door opener.

 

[teamextreme]

The needs of the average GJ devotee can't be used as a measure for garage capability as provided for the average Joe. We are nowhere near average. For 95% of the population that one 15A circuit is more than enough.

Your plan sounds fine. Are the walls insulated? You won't have any luck fishing things down insulated walls (or at least you will hate your life trying to do it).

 

[Dick in Wisconsin]

I also think that's probably code, but just the bare minimum. If your house had been built maybe 20 years ago, the 15amp garage circuit might have been shared with a GFCI in a bathroom! Like our house that was built in 1992.

If you post the layout of the house and garage, we can better give you some ideas on what to do. Are the walls in the garage closed up? Or open.

Don't forget a 50amp/240volt RV outlet for your RV and then a second one for your visiting RV friends!

Our 1,800sf house had a 200amp service. I built a 1,000sf detached race shop with a parking pad for our 45' motorhome. I knew I wanted LOTS of electricity. The local POCO wanted me to put in a separate 320amp service for the race shop in addition to the 200amp in the house plus pay for a new transformer ($3,700) and massive service line. They were told to pound sand by me, the GC, and the electrician. On their fourth proposal (you can't make this up) we settled on a single 320amp service to the race shop (which is about 20' from their pole), a new above ground service line from the existing transformer across the street, and we run the house as a 200amp subpanel off the main 320amp panel. I also installed a transfer switch so I can plug the 20Kw Kohler enerator into the house when the power goes out (after seven years I'm waiting for that to happen!).

You can do lots of stuff with 200amps, but you need to understand what draws what when. We have gas heat in the house and a gas boiler for the in-floor race shop heat, gas dryer, gas water heater, and gas stove. If you're all electric, then you have to plan.

Good luck!

 

[Dick in Wisconsin]

This is one area that 2017 NEC gets it better forcing at least 1 outlet per garage bay.

I wonder how the next revision of the NEC will address EV's.

 

[jeepxj]

you do not need to plan with 200a of service for essentially all home hobby guys. unless you're running multiple CNC's at the same time in your hobby shop. the generic home guy uses 1 or 2 large draw devices at at time.

assuming you're not heating a 20,000 sq ft shop with electric resistive heaters.

 

[Doward]

Ok, I wasn't clear lol.

The main 200a breaker is out on the side of the house, the main panel is in the RV garage, with the extra space.

No RV is going in the RV garage - that's where the 2 post lift is going!

Walls and ceiling are all fully finished and I believe they are insulated.

What if I use the existing 14/2 to fish the new 12/2?

I'm not mad about the placement of the outlets. Other than the 220v, I'm only intending for one additional in the 2 car garage.

 

[Doward]

Let's see if this works, here's the floor plan:

https://nhs-dynamic.secure.footprin...sive=true&maxwidth=1932&format=jpg&quality=90

I do have the extended RV garage. That's my automotive lift / metalworking area. The 2 car garage is the motorcycle workshop.

I'll be adding a loft area in the RV extension as well in the future, lol

 

[slow]

the existing 14/2 should be secured, so you will likely not be able to pull it out to run your 12/2

edit, just reviewed the code (well using google) and it actually looks like 2014 code calls for 1 outlet per garage bay and not 2017 as I said earlier, so you may have some discussion with the builder and not meeting code.

 

[AntonLargiader]

Car lift, metalworking, MC shop... you didn't expect the builder to plan for that, did you? So what exactly DID you expect him to plan for? I don't know either, but anything beyond what he did would have been overbuilding for his purposes and still underbuilding for yours.

I think with your usage, in a mass-produced house, it's reasonable to expect to essentially completely rewire the place. Or to have contacted to have the required electrical work added as part of the build.

Yes, one 15 in a 3-bay garage is incredibly lame. I'm surprised the garages weren't considered to be separate with one feed to each.

 

[P0234]

Most builders will add as many circuits as you like. You just have to pay for them. I just told mine where and how many.

 

[Norcal]

You buy spec or tract homes, you get cheap, exactly whatever the minimum they can get away with. Buyers do not normally care what is in the walls, they care what the cabinets look like, the countertops, the woodwork & so on, namely the superficial stuff.

 

[Dick in Wisconsin]

Walls and ceiling are all fully finished and I believe they are insulated.

What if I use the existing 14/2 to fish the new 12/2?

You can try it, but if there is one staple (which there is bound to be somewhere) you probably won't have much luck.

Conduit will be your friend. One advance of conduit is that its awfully easy to change and add an outlet along the way.

 

[Doward]

Car lift, metalworking, MC shop... you didn't expect the builder to plan for that, did you? So what exactly DID you expect him to plan for? I don't know either, but anything beyond what he did would have been overbuilding for his purposes and still underbuilding for yours.

I think with your usage, in a mass-produced house, it's reasonable to expect to essentially completely rewire the place. Or to have contacted to have the required electrical work added as part of the build.

Yes, one 15 in a 3-bay garage is incredibly lame. I'm surprised the garages weren't considered to be separate with one feed to each.

Agreed, that's where my argument started out. I'm still surprised it's considered up to code, but screw it. I'll tear out the drywall and make the right

You buy spec or tract homes, you get cheap, exactly whatever the minimum they can get away with. Buyers do not normally care what is in the walls, they care what the cabinets look like, the countertops, the woodwork & so on, namely the superficial stuff.

This is my first home buying experience. What I have learned, is that "contractor grade" means "cheapest **** possible".

 

[Doward]

You can try it, but if there is one staple (which there is bound to be somewhere) you probably won't have much luck.

Conduit will be your friend. One advance of conduit is that its awfully easy to change and add an outlet along the way.

I didn't consider the wiring might be stapled along the way - good point. So if I want it to stay within the wall, I need to trace the wire the whole way, and cut a section of drywall out along the wire run, it sounds like.

Then replace the wire, then patch that drywall.

Harder than external conduit on the wall? Yep. But like I said before, this is *my* house, so I'm happy to put the effort in!

I'll need to look into the codes around running conduit in wall. I'd like to be able to run all the wiring within conduit within the wall (so that if I ever had to replace a line, I can fish it through the conduit)

 

[whatuusay1]

We just build a house and discovered the same thing (we spec'd extra outlets) and ended up with 5 outlets, 2 garage openers and 6 x 100w led lights all sharing a single 15A circuit. Talk about a headache. It was immediately apparent the first time i used my power washer and tripped the breaker. 600W LED high bays use about 1/3 of the available wattage alone, and leaved very little left for anything else. I ended up running an extra 15A (split the lights and openers (non GFCI) to their own 15a circuit, and the remaining GFCI outlet on their own. I added a 20A circuit at my garage bench locations. Its not great but significantly better than it was. I can't believe the things builders do to save a buck.

 

[Dick in Wisconsin]

Then replace the wire, then patch that drywall.

I purposely didn't go with drywall. The stud walls sit on a 4" to 6" concrete curb, then from the bottom plate is a 1x6 piece of PVC, the 4' of OSB (one coat of oil based white primer, then two coats of semi-gloss latex, then 4' of slatwall, then 2' feet of OSB with oil/latex/latex again to the ceiling.

 

[crazybrit]

I didn't consider the wiring might be stapled along the way - good point. So if I want it to stay within the wall, I need to trace the wire the whole way, and cut a section of drywall out along the wire run, it sounds like.



Then replace the wire, then patch that drywall.



Harder than external conduit on the wall? Yep. But like I said before, this is *my* house, so I'm happy to put the effort in!



I'll need to look into the codes around running conduit in wall. I'd like to be able to run all the wiring within conduit within the wall (so that if I ever had to replace a line, I can fish it through the conduit)

You're going to run 12/2 and 14/2 romex, no? The only thing I'd use conduit for is datacom (or if you're running thhn or equivalent). Its unlikely you'll ever need to pull new 120v line and if you do, its likely in a new path not served by the existing conduit, so .......

You don't have many current outlets by sound of it. I'd abandon vertical runs (likely stapled) of the old 14/2 wiring in wall (tag it as abandoned). Horizontal runs (between outlets, though you don't have many) are usually easier to remove.

All your outlets should be at standard height above floor. Cut an 8" channel out of drywall, run new 12/2 drilling studs. Use some pieces of 1x2 to bridge the 8" channel, reinstall drywall.

If its a garage I doubt they bothered to finish the drywall, so probably easiest to then spray texture and prime


Sent from my MI PAD 4 using Tapatalk

 

[Doward]

So seems like this is up to code. I'll plan on tracing and marking the wiring locations, then cutting an 8" strip out and just rewiring the whole damn place, lol.

I'll sand out the knockdown on the drywall before cutting, so hopefully I can blend it in well.

Any problems running 50a 220v in wall?

 

[crazybrit]

I'll sand out the knockdown on the drywall before cutting, so hopefully I can blend it in well.

The existing drywall is going to be screwed to studs. If they did a good job they were consistent in where they screwed. If this is in the 8" section you want to remove, you may end up breaking pieces. So I'd sand off the knockdown after you've got it reinstalled. You'll also have to mask off the area above below when spraying new texture. Practice on a piece of cardboard to figure out what settings you need on the gun.

Good time to install nail plates if there are none.

Good luck!

Any problems running 50a 220v in wall?

Depends on the gauge and on the rating of the disconnect terminals. I ran 20ft of #8 NM in wall for my TIG welder but IIRC it's on a 40A breaker. I think NM requires the 60C rating so #8 maxes out at 40A. You may be able to use #8 THHN in conduit to get the 75C rating for 50A. I'm not an expert, but I'm sure someone else can chime in.

 

[Syberia]

Your garage is on its own separate circuit? What luxury you're living in! Beats the mess that was my garage when we moved in - tied in as an afterthought off of the 1940s ungrounded BS serving the kitchen via a sketchy open splice in the wall. Fridge comes on when my compressor is filling? I'm in the dark going to reset the breaker...

Any problems running 50a 220v in wall?

Nope, you'll need 6/2 or 6/3 NM, but that's available at Home Depot. Just don't look at the price tag.

 

[nadogail]

IMHO, those two garages were wired by a Cheapskate. What they did was technically in compliance, but CHEAP.

 

[Doward]

Your garage is on its own separate circuit? What luxury you're living in! Beats the mess that was my garage when we moved in - tied in as an afterthought off of the 1940s ungrounded BS serving the kitchen via a sketchy open splice in the wall. Fridge comes on when my compressor is filling? I'm in the dark going to reset the breaker...


Nope, you'll need 6/2 or 6/3 NM, but that's available at Home Depot. Just don't look at the price tag.

How's that go? Buy once, cry once?

IMHO, those two garages were wired by a Cheapskate. What they did was technically in compliance, but CHEAP.

That's been my impression of just about everything so far here

 

[andyvh1959]

Aren't there somewhat decorative conduit styles (thinking like what is used in an office or school) that can be surface mounted?. Leave the few current outlets as is and route the circuits you desire with conduit from the main panel. At least then you can alter/modify circuits as needed and only have to disturb the drywall where the conduit gets to the main panel. I agree too that one 15A circuit in a garage, especially these days, is just stupid. Its all about cost.