Electrician or home DIY guy results

[andyvh1959]

I got the power out to the sub panel in my detached garage. Added a 100 amp duplex breaker off the 200 amp main to feed the new garage, #2AWG copper in conduit from the main panel to the sub panel.

In the process, and after many posts on this forum and excellent info and direction from many here far smarter than I electrical wise, I plunged into the mess that was my early 70's CH Load Center and rerouted everything. See the before and after pictures attached. The before was done by an electrician back in 1973, the after was done by me today.

I had to remove all the blacks, whites and grounds, added a separate ground bus bar, rerouted all the neutrals to what was the neutral/ground bus. Untangled many wires crossed over each other for no reason. Grouped the grounds together to the new ground bus. Rerouted all the whites to the old neutral bus bar and so doing put each into its own lug hole versus the many doubled up whites in the old mess. I even found a neutral in the mess, not attached to anything and not capped either. But all the blacks were accounted for, and two breakers had blacks doubled up into them. So I added two breakers to segregate all the circuits. Thanks all to everyone who got me going enough to clean up the mess.

 

[PCustoms]

Is that a white PVC plumbing elbow painted grey?

 

[Bert_]

Glad you are learning but I wouldn't toot your horn to loud. I read the other threads, don't act like you're better than the guy that was in there before.

Definitely DIY with what looks like a plumbing 90* below the panel.

 

[Norcal]

That 90° elbow is not code compliant.

 

[Stuff]

Looks like your red marked wire to the sub got gouged as showing aluminum. You need to fix that before it kills someone.

 

[klassenl]

Nothing like coming to the forums and getting pooped on.


It looks like you took your time and did a good job of making things pretty. For a non electrician this is a brave task.

 

[andyvh1959]

Ok, tooting horn is quieted. I'm not claiming to be any level of an electrician. However, based on what I've found around this house (live, unended wires under both decks, unconnected neutral in the main panel, loose black connections on many breakers, sloppy workmanship in the main panel and in the sub panei in the basement) I can say for certain if I paid an electrician to do the work I have found in this house I'd be pissed, and would let others know about the marginal work done.

I'll check that red coded wire. I do know it is not gouged into the copper itself. That THHN cable has a double layer cover, the outermost which is easy to gouge, but the main layer is very tough and hard to cut/split/gouge. But I will double check that.

Yes, it is a smooth bend PVC elbow 90, not a sharp bend. It has no sharp edges inside, it is the exact same material, same wall thickness as a long bend, large radius 90 PVC elbow, which would not fit the installation at all. The #2 copper wire easily bends through the 90, and it provides conduit coverage of the cable. The cable inside the conduit is fully cased as well.

 

[ddawg16]

Tough audience tonight.

It's ok Andy, we were all there at one time.

Considering what you started with, it looks a whole lot better.....

But the top of the panel? In CA, not top entry allowed. In fact, my load center had a blocking plate to prevent any top wires going to breakers.

 

[alfredeneuman]

But the top of the panel? In CA, not top entry allowed.

Please elaborate further.

 

[jayrush13]

Blaming all the issues in the panel on the electrician from 1973 is like all the problems with your car is from the mechanic that worked on it 40+ years ago. Granted the panel was messy but the neutral wire not landed and some of the other issues were probably caused from some idiot not knowing what he was doing and messing around in there. I have been back to jobs I have done and seen work that wasn't mine trying to get blamed on me nothing I hate worse than people messing with things they don't understand then trying to blame it on someone else when it goes south. You should of just left the 90° elbow white, Anyone who knows electrical will know it isn't legit

 

[Metal-Marc]

If I were to rewire a very old panel, I'd replace it with something current.

Gotta love those two exposed bus bars.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

why did you use #2 cu? you couldve saved some change with #3 CU or #1 AL...

 

[MrSurly]

I cannot find the data to provide the citation for this *at this moment* however; I read a very detailed explanation about grey PVC that had the information that is missing from the discussion... every time the white vs grey subject is beaten to death again and again.
The information explained that grey PVC is chemically different from the white due to additives that are in the recipe specifically to limit or alter the flame and smoke propagation characteristics of the material, these factors bring critical in electrical use and not in plumbing.
The idea being that if conductors are overheating, the grey conduit will produce LESS SMOKE and resist ignition at higher temperatures than plumbing pipe.
I am sorry I don’t have the link but the info made perfect sense and offered an explanation that we can get behind.
I’m fairly sure it was a pvc manufacturers website.

EDIT to add: I’m pretty sure the requirements for grey PVC performance and standardization are contained within NEMA TC-series standards... but you have to pay for copies.

 

[Norcal]

Blaming all the issues in the panel on the electrician from 1973 is like all the problems with your car is from the mechanic that worked on it 40+ years ago. Granted the panel was messy but the neutral wire not landed and some of the other issues were probably caused from some idiot not knowing what he was doing and messing around in there. I have been back to jobs I have done and seen work that wasn't mine trying to get blamed on me nothing I hate worse than people messing with things they don't understand then trying to blame it on someone else when it goes south. You should of just left the 90° elbow white, Anyone who knows electrical will know it isn't legit

That white landed on the breaker was code compliant when it was done, code changed decades later. A lot of things can change in a panel after almost 50 years. Just like plumbing parts being used for conduit. Think that has been referred to as the "plumbtrician" in the past.

 

[nieuport17]

I used to own a house that was build in the 40s.
Nothing was compliant. Everything looks like a diy job.

 

[andyvh1959]

I chose copper because, because well, its copper. The total run from main panel to sub panel is about 50', and for the 100 amp rating. Plus it was readily available at Menards.

Now I'm curious to understand why a local or state code would not allow wiring from the top of the panel to the breakers. Must be some logic for it.

 

[alfredeneuman]

Now I'm curious to understand why a local or state code would not allow wiring from the top of the panel to the breakers.

There is no such rule.
Whether the wiring comes in from the top, bottom, sides, or back makes no difference Code wise. If it were not allowed they wouldn't have knockouts in them. (Most indoor panels can be flipped end for end as well; the top becoming the bottom).

 

[b-boy]

I chose copper because, because well, its copper.

Uh Oh. Here comes the CU vs AL crowd.

I agree by the way. I did the same thing.

 

[earl84]

Glad you are learning but I wouldn't toot your horn to loud. I read the other threads, don't act like you're better than the guy that was in there before.

Definitely DIY with what looks like a plumbing 90* below the panel.

Total **** move. Guy said he wasn’t an electrician, and his cleanup looks 10x better than when he started.

 

[grounded-b]

There is no such rule.
Whether the wiring comes in from the top, bottom, sides, or back makes no difference Code wise. If it were not allowed they wouldn't have knockouts in them. (Most indoor panels can be flipped end for end as well; the top becoming the bottom).

The comment was regarding the Code in "CA" ( Canada) ??

 

[jlv03]

But the top of the panel? In CA, not top entry allowed. In fact, my load center had a blocking plate to prevent any top wires going to breakers.

Is your main breaker at the top? I'm wondering if you are running into something put into place to make the panelboard UL Service Entrance (ULSE) compliant, where you have separation from the incoming ungrounded conductors from anything downstream of the disconnect device(s).

 

[Norcal]

Is your main breaker at the top? I'm wondering if you are running into something put into place to make the panelboard UL Service Entrance (ULSE) compliant, where you have separation from the incoming ungrounded conductors from anything downstream of the disconnect device(s).

The panel is from 1973, there were new codes issued in 1975,1978,1981,1984,1987,1990,1993,1996,1999,and so on, it could have been installed under the 1968, or 1971, NEC you do not have to upgrade every new code issued, unless there is work that triggers a upgrade and what the OP is doing is not going require the panel to be swapped or other major changes.

Another note, some jurisdictions are slow to adopt new codes, it could have even been done under the 1965 NEC.

 

[andyvh1959]

My panel has a 200 amp main switch. Just below that is the 100 amp long frame main breaker that is clamped on both hot bus bars (if that is the right way to describe. So yes, the main switch is at the top, then the main breaker, then all the circuit breakers below. All CH series breakers, of which the new CH style do snap in on the clip and stud ends.

 

[alfredeneuman]

The comment was regarding the Code in "CA" ( Canada) ??

He's from S.CAlifornia

 

[Innovate1]

Tough audience tonight.

It's ok Andy, we were all there at one time.

Considering what you started with, it looks a whole lot better.....

But the top of the panel? In CA, not top entry allowed. In fact, my load center had a blocking plate to prevent any top wires going to breakers.

No top entry? That's really strange. On most of the panels I have seen most of the wires come out the top.

On the 90 elbow - Looks like you needed a tighter bend than normal conduit bend. For tight corners like that an LB is normally used. Something like this (size is wrong but it's what I found quickly)
https://www.homedepot.com/p/1-2-in-Type-LB-Conduit-Body-R5133663/202043487

 

[andyvh1959]

Yup, thought of that too. An LB is an option if the inspector gets a look at it and deems it to be changed.

One thing for certain. There is a LOT more to think of than just routing wires and screwing in connections on lugs and breakers than electrical work looks like. I apologize if my posts disrespect or marginalize all the highly trained and qualified electricians out there. It takes very little to really screw up an electrical installation.

 

[alfredeneuman]

An LB is an option if the inspector gets a look at it and deems it to be changed.

A standard LB might be too long, considering the bend.
An SLB is about 40% shorter than standard
https://www.bptfittings.com/store/rigid-imc-fittings/conduit-bodies/service-entrance-lb-type.html

 

[ddawg16]

Please elaborate further.

There is no such rule.
Whether the wiring comes in from the top, bottom, sides, or back makes no difference Code wise. If it were not allowed they wouldn't have knockouts in them. (Most indoor panels can be flipped end for end as well; the top becoming the bottom).

Then why did my load center have a plate installed to prevent load wires from being installed from the top? Along with a note stating no load wires could enter above the main breaker.

 

[nadogail]

I have seen a lot worse. Any improvement is better than doing nothing.

 

[Innovate1]

Then why did my load center have a plate installed to prevent load wires from being installed from the top? Along with a note stating no load wires could enter above the main breaker.

So you load center isn't reversible (flip top for bottom)? A lot of them are. If it is how do they know which end to block since either end could be the top. Not doubting CA may make some crazy rule but still seems pointless.

 

[Bert_]

Pretty sure in Canada they have a separated compartment for the main breaker. Can't run circuits through there apparently.

We don't have any rules like that here in the states.

 

[The Cobbler]

I am pretty sure my panel in my garage has a few circuits running through the main breaker area. the breaker is at the bottom of the panel and I am quite sure there are a few circuits coming out thru the bottom

 

[alfredeneuman]

Then why did my load center have a plate installed to prevent load wires from being installed from the top? Along with a note stating no load wires could enter above the main breaker.

That can't be answered because there is not enough info.
I'm curious as to the brand and model of the panel, because I've never seen that before.
I'm from SoCa too

 

[Norcal]

Then why did my load center have a plate installed to prevent load wires from being installed from the top? Along with a note stating no load wires could enter above the main breaker.

Is it a loadcenter, or a meter main? SQ D Homeline meter mains do have that limitation on certain models.


I do not know if the pictures will display, as may need to be logged in to view, but here is a example of it, there is more then 200 pages of **** posted by a inspector in Southern California.

https://www.thebuildingcodeforum.com/forum/threads/an-average-day.5233/page-224

 

[Stuff]

Yup, thought of that too. An LB is an option if the inspector gets a look at it and deems it to be changed.

Keep in mind that an LB needs to be accessible so can not be buried in a finished wall.

 

[walrus]

Total **** move. Guy said he wasn’t an electrician, and his cleanup looks 10x better than when he started.

Looks better?? but is it really better, you know like safer, code compliant etc. I don't know but putting 90 bends in wire does nothing to make it safer.

 

[Terry D]

Have we ever figured out here. Are we talking about Canada or California?

Check this out https://www.electriciantalk.com/threads/canadian-electrical-panel.76041/

 

[earl84]

Looks better?? but is it really better, you know like safer, code compliant etc. I don't know but putting 90 bends in wire does nothing to make it safer.

True enough, but there’s ways of saying things without being a jerk. And I’m not an overly sensitive, easily triggered millennial. I just listened when my mom told me if I didn’t have something nice to say, don’t say anything. At the very least, it can be presented like every other response in this forum; constructive criticism is acceptable and wanted, much like your response.

I also think that if someone wouldn’t walk down my driveway and say something to my face, they shouldn’t sit anonymously behind a keyboard and type **** to make themselves feel better or whatever their motivation is. But , to each his/her own.
I’m thinking of making a post about my DIY solar install that went operational 2 days ago, and just can’t wait to see what anonymous jerks behind keyboards who know nothing about me, my life, my experience/lack of, planning mistakes, timeline errors, order of operations errors, have to say about it. BTW, it passed electrical inspection.

 

[Norcal]

True enough, but there’s ways of saying things without being a jerk. And I’m not an overly sensitive, easily triggered millennial. I just listened when my mom told me if I didn’t have something nice to say, don’t say anything. At the very least, it can be presented like every other response in this forum; constructive criticism is acceptable and wanted, much like your response.

I also think that if someone wouldn’t walk down my driveway and say something to my face, they shouldn’t sit anonymously behind a keyboard and type **** to make themselves feel better or whatever their motivation is. But , to each his/her own.
I’m thinking of making a post about my DIY solar install that went operational 2 days ago, and just can’t wait to see what anonymous jerks behind keyboards who know nothing about me, my life, my experience/lack of, planning mistakes, timeline errors, order of operations errors, have to say about it. BTW, it passed electrical inspection.

Passing a inspection does not always mean much, some jurisdictions it does, where I live not so much, a inspector passing a code violation does not make it right. Some inspectors are just human, & missed it, some are incompetent, some go over things with a fine tooth comb and know the trade and the code.

 

[kinglake]

Passing a inspection does not always mean much, some jurisdictions it does, where I live not so much, a inspector passing a code violation does not make it right. Some inspectors are just human, & missed it, some are incompetent, some go over things with a fine tooth comb and know the trade and the code.

The code is not the end all be all. MANY states have exceptions to the NEC and I think we all agree that code is often impacted by outside influence that shouldn't be present.

Point is the inspector might actually be 100% competent, he/she just has a head on his shoulders and realizes that in certain situations the are ways to do things safely that don't match the code exactly.