MerlinsBeard
Well-known member
Not in the trade, so don’t know how common this is, but never seen something fail like this before. Maybe house settling is the cause?
Didn’t see this coming...
- Thread starter MerlinsBeard
- Start date
wssix99
Well-known member
For sure, that's the cause.
+1. This makes having a sprinkler system pointless. BTW - If one is going to store stuff in such proximity to sprinkler heads (even with materials properly spaced away.) you should have some wedges on hand in case you ever knock one of these things and break the bulb inside. Better to have a proper rubber wedge you can tap in to stop the flow than to sit there and watch the house flood.
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Bill Wright
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2017
- Messages
- 45
Now the wedge thing is an excellent tip!!
nadogail
Well-known member
I think the water that has been standing in a "Wet Pipe" sprinkler system gets really nasty over time.
I have seen two situations where that water damage than a small fire; one in a hotel and the other in an office.
In the hotel the sprinkler head was struck by a guest with a tennis racquet; in the office someone thought the sprinkler head would be a nice place to hang a plant .
I have seen two situations where that water damage than a small fire; one in a hotel and the other in an office.
In the hotel the sprinkler head was struck by a guest with a tennis racquet; in the office someone thought the sprinkler head would be a nice place to hang a plant .
OP
MerlinsBeard
Well-known member
If one of the sprinkler ends up damaged, there is a sprinkler system shut off valve. Then I'd have to call to a plumber to fix the head. Not sure the wedge thing is that useful if you already have a sprinkler system shutoff valve, but it's nice to know it's out there. I also flush the system once a month with a relief valve for a minute or two, though I don't really know how much of the stale water it drains from the system.
engineer2
Well-known member
Creep failure of the plastic J-box due to overtightened screws. Sometime it can take years to fail. Add a little hot weather, and it comes apart.
Simply replace it and snug the screws without deforming the plastic.
Simply replace it and snug the screws without deforming the plastic.
wssix99
Well-known member
They are perfect places to hang plants. That's the problem with them! lol
How many GPM does that head flow?
How long for you or your wife to get to the valve?
I've seen 3 break (2 froze and 1 hit), talk about a mess.
You also might want to look into clearances required.
htmdude57
Well-known member
From what I remember (I had a Facilities Director for a boss who was an expert on NFPA rules), nothing in the area should be within 18 inches of the ceiling, in a building that has a sprinkler system.
wssix99
Well-known member
In a shared building, those valves are in locked rooms. In the City, plumbers don't do sprinklers, either. Special pipefitters are required.
rburke65
Well-known member
Well!.....this topic sure took a turn!
wssix99
Well-known member
Please disregard my earlier comment. I missed that you are the OP.
It's great that you have access to a shutoff. I would expect if you are flushing the system that frequently, you may never see any dirty water.
Good luck with your new box. I expect you should be able to just bolt a new one in.
OP
MerlinsBeard
Well-known member
No problem.
I did finally find an exact replacement, after searching online in multiple box stores and making a 2 hour round trip, those blue round electrical boxes are hard to find now, sheesh!
I did finally find an exact replacement, after searching online in multiple box stores and making a 2 hour round trip, those blue round electrical boxes are hard to find now, sheesh!
OP
MerlinsBeard
Well-known member
So trying to replace the electric box in the ceiling behind drywall. Is there any trick to getting the box mounted to the bracket without cutting out drywall?
Seems like I need to cut a patch square so that I can get a hand up there to apply pressure to the bracket when I try to screw in the box.
Seems like I need to cut a patch square so that I can get a hand up there to apply pressure to the bracket when I try to screw in the box.
welder4956
Well-known member
With that metal bracket that is visible through the hole in the ceiling, I would suspect that someone used it to install a ceiling fan and attached a plastic box that was not rated for a ceiling fan. The box has probably been cracked for awhile and the ceiling fan was removed and replaced with a light fixture. Just my guess.
Wrench97
Well-known member
Automatic plant watering system
Wrench97
Well-known member
Ceiling fan in a closet?
driftpin
Well-known member
These are where you can find answers:
www.nfpa.org
For a low-rise apt. building:
www.nfpa.org
What year of the code has been adopted and under what year's code the structure was built, or re-modeled are part of knowing what are the requirements.
The brass wedges, spring-loaded and having a small rubber sphere to seal to the sprinkler head orifice are a quick way to stop the flow, if it's a distance to the shut-off.
Yes, storage in proximity to the head is prohibited.
One of these will pay for itself, if you ever need it.
www.firehosedirect.com
Most residential fires activate three or less heads.
NFPA 13D Standard Development
Stay informed and participate in the standards development process for NFPA 13D
Standard for the Installation of Sprinkler Systems in One- and Two-Family Dwellings and Manufactured Homes
For a low-rise apt. building:
NFPA 13R Standard Development
Stay informed and participate in the standards development process for NFPA 13R
Standard for the Installation of Sprinkler Systems in Low-Rise Residential Occupancies
What year of the code has been adopted and under what year's code the structure was built, or re-modeled are part of knowing what are the requirements.
The brass wedges, spring-loaded and having a small rubber sphere to seal to the sprinkler head orifice are a quick way to stop the flow, if it's a distance to the shut-off.
Yes, storage in proximity to the head is prohibited.
One of these will pay for itself, if you ever need it.
Fire Sprinkler Head Emergency Shut Off Tool
Universal fire sprinkler head stopper device, stops water damage caused by an open sprinkler head without shutting down the entire system. Simply push rubber stop into opening of sprinkler head and turn handle until water flow stops.
www.firehosedirect.com
Most residential fires activate three or less heads.
driftpin
Well-known member
These are where you can find answers:
NFPA 13D Standard Development
Stay informed and participate in the standards development process for NFPA 13D
Standard for the Installation of Sprinkler Systems in One- and Two-Family Dwellings and Manufactured Homes
For a low-rise apt. building:
NFPA 13R Standard Development
Stay informed and participate in the standards development process for NFPA 13R
Standard for the Installation of Sprinkler Systems in Low-Rise Residential Occupancies
What year of the code has been adopted and under what year's code the structure was built, or re-modeled are part of knowing what are the requirements.
The brass wedges, spring-loaded and having a small rubber sphere to seal to the sprinkler head orifice are a quick way to stop the flow, if it's a distance to the shut-off.
Yes, storage in proximity to the head is prohibited.
If you have questions, contacting the Bureau of Fire Prevention in your jurisdiction will usually get an immediate response. Replacement heads are kept by the controls in an installation. Any activation of a head should send an alarm to the central monitoring station, to initiate a fire suppression response, courtesy of your friendly local fire service.
One of these will pay for itself, if you ever need it.
Fire Sprinkler Head Emergency Shut Off Tool
Universal fire sprinkler head stopper device, stops water damage caused by an open sprinkler head without shutting down the entire system. Simply push rubber stop into opening of sprinkler head and turn handle until water flow stops.
Most residential fires activate three or less heads.
OP
MerlinsBeard
Well-known member
There’s no ceiling fan, the electrician used a fan bracket to mount a light fixture.
I’ve been giving it some thought, going to try to tape a piece of long twine to the top of the bracket and have the string hanging down on both sides so that I can have someone pull down on both strings to provide downward bracing for me to screw the screws in to the bracket. Probably going to be awkward to line it up, but if I can get the box and bracket aligned, I can screw it in and then pull the twine from one side to get it out. Should be pretty simple from there. I’ll see how it goes.
I’ve been giving it some thought, going to try to tape a piece of long twine to the top of the bracket and have the string hanging down on both sides so that I can have someone pull down on both strings to provide downward bracing for me to screw the screws in to the bracket. Probably going to be awkward to line it up, but if I can get the box and bracket aligned, I can screw it in and then pull the twine from one side to get it out. Should be pretty simple from there. I’ll see how it goes.
OP
MerlinsBeard
Well-known member
Update, I was able to install a round electrical box as a replacement without cutting drywall, but not without another person's help. I could not figure out a way to do it by myself, as I always needed three hands.
The main difficulty was that there needs to be downward force holding the plate that sits across the fan bracket where you mount the box to. This downward force has to be maintained while using one hand to align the box and the other hand installs the screw into the box.
The plate that sits on the fan bracket has six holes in a pattern like this
The round electric box is mounted using screws that go through the corners of the plate.
X = mounting screw holes
If you buy a new box with a fan bracket, the supplied screws may not go into the holes in the plate very smoothly and require extra pressure to thread them through the holes. To mitigate this issue, I simply threaded the screws through the holes multiple times in and out and eventually the additional force needs to torq the screws through the plate lessened to a point where they threaded easily. I did it about 10 times for each hole.
Next I cut a long piece of twine about 8 feet long and threaded it through the two middle holes.
T = twine
You can pull on both sides of the twine hanging from the ceiling to provide downward force to keep the plate in place on the fan bracket. The twine is thin enough to squeeze between the edge of the electric box and the drywall. After the box is screwed in, the twine can be simply removed by pulling on one side.
The last thing I did was magnetize one of my phillips screwdriver so I could keep the mounting screw balanced on the screwdriver head since I needed to use one hand to constantly maintain alignment of the holes of the electric box against the holes in the plate.
It still took some time to adjust the plate's location on the fan bracket, rotate and align the electric box holes with the screws, and then have my brother-in-law feed me a screwdriver with the screw and while he then pulls down on the twine. It took about five to six attempts to get everything lined up perfectly and for the screws to take. I did end up throwing all my wife's shoes out of the closet when I dropped a screw a couple times and couldn't find it.
Not sure if you'll ever be in that situation, but it worked for me, and the bonus is that I won't have an ugly drywall patch to deal with (my drywall patching skills aren't great to begin with either, as far as making patches unnoticeable).
The main difficulty was that there needs to be downward force holding the plate that sits across the fan bracket where you mount the box to. This downward force has to be maintained while using one hand to align the box and the other hand installs the screw into the box.
The plate that sits on the fan bracket has six holes in a pattern like this
Code:
| |
| O O O |
| |
| |
| |
| O O O |
| |The round electric box is mounted using screws that go through the corners of the plate.
Code:
| |
| X O O |
| |
| |
| |
| O O X |
| |X = mounting screw holes
If you buy a new box with a fan bracket, the supplied screws may not go into the holes in the plate very smoothly and require extra pressure to thread them through the holes. To mitigate this issue, I simply threaded the screws through the holes multiple times in and out and eventually the additional force needs to torq the screws through the plate lessened to a point where they threaded easily. I did it about 10 times for each hole.
Next I cut a long piece of twine about 8 feet long and threaded it through the two middle holes.
Code:
| |
| X T O |
| | | --------------------------------
| | | bracket
| | | --------------------------------
| O T X |
| |T = twine
You can pull on both sides of the twine hanging from the ceiling to provide downward force to keep the plate in place on the fan bracket. The twine is thin enough to squeeze between the edge of the electric box and the drywall. After the box is screwed in, the twine can be simply removed by pulling on one side.
The last thing I did was magnetize one of my phillips screwdriver so I could keep the mounting screw balanced on the screwdriver head since I needed to use one hand to constantly maintain alignment of the holes of the electric box against the holes in the plate.
It still took some time to adjust the plate's location on the fan bracket, rotate and align the electric box holes with the screws, and then have my brother-in-law feed me a screwdriver with the screw and while he then pulls down on the twine. It took about five to six attempts to get everything lined up perfectly and for the screws to take. I did end up throwing all my wife's shoes out of the closet when I dropped a screw a couple times and couldn't find it.
Not sure if you'll ever be in that situation, but it worked for me, and the bonus is that I won't have an ugly drywall patch to deal with (my drywall patching skills aren't great to begin with either, as far as making patches unnoticeable).
Jim greengo
Well-known member
Looks like a closet to me.
nadogail
Well-known member
I have fixed badly cut holes in ceilings with a "Rosette" also known as a decorative trim plate.
OP
MerlinsBeard
Well-known member
Was able to put back the fixture back together over the weekend. Nice to get this one done without hacking up the drywall.