Vertical Mill

[bfr57]

Have a chance to buy an older vertical mill, think it’s an Enco. I’ve never used one before but love fabricating. I have a drill press, TIG, MIG, etc. What kind of things do you make with yours? Can letters be cut? Without CNC is it limited? Any insight to vertical mills?

 

[GeoBruin]

A mill is certainly a powerful tool, even without cnc. Making metal parts of specified size with pefectly parallel faces, slots, grooves, keyways, angles etc. is all doable. Much of it is in the tooling/clamping. I dont know if your mill comes with tooling or clamping accessories but you'll find pretty quick you need end mills of different varieties, flycutters, facing mills, boring bars, reamers, the list goes on. And for holding work a vice is really nice to have but at a minimum a clamping kit is necessary and then you realize you need a rotary table etc.

And to set up the machine, calibrate, check parts etc. you'll want a dial indicator, calipers, micrometers, and so on.

Anyway, the mill is a big step but it only gets you part way there. Just make sure you've considered that in your figuring.

Good luck.

 

[Indexmill]

If the machine does not come with any "tooling", you will have to spend a minimum of $500 just on clamping and cutters. If it does not come with a vise, that's another $500. That's just so you can actually use the machine.

So, yes, buy it. You will not regret it if the price is right. Those old Enco machines were plenty good if it's not clapped out.

 

[zze86]

Maybe stupid question but what's the difference between a DP and vertical Mill? Besides the fancier table, can't you technically use the mill to drill and vice versa?

 

[IndyGarage]

You can use a mill to drill, but you cannot use a drill press to mill anything more than wood or plastic. Maybe a really light cut on soft aluminum. Mills have big bearings made for the side loads as well as much more rigid columns and arms. They also have much more overhang.

 

[MushCreek]

There's all sorts of stuff you can do with a mill. There's a lot to learn if you've never run one before, though. I use mine to square up cut pieces of metal, precision drilling, tapping and reaming, cutting slots, machining parts to size and shape, etc. You could technically mill letters, but it would take various attachments, and be very slow and tedious. CNC makes that kind of stuff (and much more) readily available.

 

[Jason280]

If it does not come with a vise, that's another $500. That's just so you can actually use the machine.

Mill vises can be found considerably cheaper than $500. Hell, even used Kurts can be found in the sub $300 range...sometimes cheaper.

 

[matt_i]

Its a step on the way, and a valuable one imo.

Letters would not be easy and CNC is another step forward cost-wise.

When you need to knock out a quick bolt pattern or cut a step then the manual mill is much, much faster than a CNC. The tradeoff is the CNC machine can make more exotic parts.

 

[liliysdad]

If you can get a decent mill for a decent price, do it. I have a Clausing 8530, and its easily the favorite tool in the shop. Be warned, you will soon want a lathe....and like others said, tooling will eat you alive, but its worth it.

For tooling, nothing beats eBay. You can pick up end mils by the pound, used collets, etc...

 

[jmarkwolf]

A manual mill is a nice addition to the shop. You'll want a DRO (digital readout) for moving the table to precise locations for such work as bolt hole patterns. Craigslist is a good place to look for tooling.

A CNC mill requires that you write a program for each and every project, which is a nuisance for one-offs, but very handy for multiples or production work.

 

[lbhsbz]

I use mine for lots of repairs. Resurfacing, repairing of damaged threaded holes, installing threaded inserts, drilling holes in exact locations and patterns, removal of broken fasteners, etc…and occasionally making new things. It’s much more rigid than any drill press, and with a DRO, a very useful machine for a wide range of products…even accurately measuring things.

 

[Neggy]

great for machining 80% lowers....

 

[slowtwitch73]

Letter cutting *could* be done but it would we a total pita without cnc. Pretty low down on the list of things that a vert mill would be good for.... if on list at all.

 

[MushCreek]

I knew an engineer that took a machining unit, and part of the final was to mill your last name into a chunk of brass on a manual mill, using a rotary table. He had a long Italian last name, so felt he got ripped off. He had that piece of brass on his desk.

 

[vanapplebomb]

Mill vises can be found considerably cheaper than $500. Hell, even used Kurts can be found in the sub $300 range...sometimes cheaper.

Yes, but I would bet 1,000 bucks that perpendicularity, parallelism, etc, are out at least 0.001” over the height of the vice, and 0.0015 over the width for a 6” vice. They are not great. I have used some of those cheaper vices, and they are not great. Used Kurt vices can be a bit of a gamble. Sometimes they are in good shape, other times not. If you plan on holding any tolerances in the 0.002” or above range for parallelism and want a square part, get a good new vice. It is worth it. Things like dowel pins where you need to hold 0.0005” tolerances, a good nice is mandatory, and anything less than the best will be impossible to work with.

 

[liliysdad]

Yes, but I would bet 1,000 bucks that perpendicularity, parallelism, etc, are out at least 0.001” over the height of the vice, and 0.0015 over the width for a 6” vice. They are not great. I have used some of those cheaper vices, and they are not great. Used Kurt vices can be a bit of a gamble. Sometimes they are in good shape, other times not. If you plan on holding any tolerances in the 0.002” or above range for parallelism and want a square part, get a good new vice. It is worth it. Things like dowel pins where you need to hold 0.0005” tolerances, a good nice is mandatory, and anything less than the best will be impossible to work with.

All of this is true....and completely irrelevant for the home and hobby machinist.

Used and import vises are just fine the for the vast majority of purposes. When you need a better vise ..you know it.

 

[vanapplebomb]

I don’t think it’s irrelevant. If you need square parts, or are trying to fit pieces together, like sots, keys, or dowel pins, the cheap vices don’t work. Been there done that.

if all you are doing is knocking corners off to make a rough shape, say with a tolerance of 0.005, or just popping clearance holes in for bolts, then yes, a cheap vice is fine.

As a hobbyist, there definitely are times when I need that tight tolerance.

 

[liliysdad]

Like I said....as a hobbyist, when you are the point where you need a better vise, it's readily apparent. For 99.9% of the use a hobby mill sees, a cheap vise in good repair is more than adequate.

 

[jonesg]

Like I said....as a hobbyist, when you are the point where you need a better vise, it's readily apparent. For 99.9% of the use a hobby mill sees, a cheap vise in good repair is more than adequate.

yep.
I've been playing with my lathe and mill for 20 yrs, I wouldn't know if I needed a better vice, its a hobby it doesn't matter.
I can machine close enough, beat it to fit and paint it to match.
Cutting letters might be better done with a plama setup.

 

[liliysdad]

yep.
I've been playing with my lathe and mill for 20 yrs, I wouldn't know if I needed a better vice, its a hobby it doesn't matter.
I can machine close enough, beat it to fit and paint it to match.
Cutting letters might be better done with a plama setup.

That's exactly my point....for what I do with a mill, a vise is a vise as long as it relatively square.

 

[larry_g]

I don’t think it’s irrelevant. If you need square parts, or are trying to fit pieces together, like sots, keys, or dowel pins, the cheap vices don’t work. Been there done that.

if all you are doing is knocking corners off to make a rough shape, say with a tolerance of 0.005, or just popping clearance holes in for bolts, then yes, a cheap vice is fine.

As a hobbyist, there definitely are times when I need that tight tolerance.

Yes, but I would bet 1,000 bucks that perpendicularity, parallelism, etc, are out at least 0.001” over the height of the vice, and 0.0015 over the width for a 6” vice. They are not great. I have used some of those cheaper vices, and they are not great. Used Kurt vices can be a bit of a gamble. Sometimes they are in good shape, other times not. If you plan on holding any tolerances in the 0.002” or above range for parallelism and want a square part, get a good new vice. It is worth it. Things like dowel pins where you need to hold 0.0005” tolerances, a good nice is mandatory, and anything less than the best will be impossible to work with.

You can put the finest vise on an ole worn machine and you will still not get the tolerances that you are alluding to. If you NEED a brand new certified vise you will also need a new certified machine to hold 5 tenth tolerances. Considering that the OP doesn't understand the need for milling machine I wager that he won't be shooting for tenth tolerances for a few years yet.

To the OP

Get the machine if it is cheap enough. Work with it for awhile and see if it is worth having, for the work you do. Most always you can sell it for what you have in it and and if not then consider it the cost of an education. Also as said above, a mill or lathe will have to have support equipment. Tooling, saws to prep material, measuring tools for set ups, and on and on. It is easy to spend more on peripheral stuff than it is on a bare mill. So if serious then look for a machine that has a good amount of 'stuff' with it.

lg
no neat sig line
.

 

[Jason280]

It is easy to spend more on peripheral stuff than it is on a bare mill. So if serious then look for a machine that has a good amount of 'stuff' with it.

Absolutely....and even better if you can get it from the person who actually used the machine, knows its quirks, etc.

 

[bsaint]

Yes, but I would bet 1,000 bucks that perpendicularity, parallelism, etc, are out at least 0.001” over the height of the vice, and 0.0015 over the width for a 6” vice. They are not great. I have used some of those cheaper vices, and they are not great. Used Kurt vices can be a bit of a gamble. Sometimes they are in good shape, other times not. If you plan on holding any tolerances in the 0.002” or above range for parallelism and want a square part, get a good new vice. It is worth it. Things like dowel pins where you need to hold 0.0005” tolerances, a good nice is mandatory, and anything less than the best will be impossible to work with.

You think his used mill can hold that tolerance? Do you think he can tram in that mill to hold that tolerance? This is a garage mill. I think an ebay or Chinese clone is fine.

 

[jmarkwolf]

Get the machine if it is cheap enough. Work with it for awhile and see if it is worth having, for the work you do. Most always you can sell it for what you have in it and and if not then consider it the cost of an education.
.

Well said.

 

[WisJim]

I wanted a lathe and a mill for decades. One day I spotted a Grizzly mill-drill on Craigslist for a decent price with a stand, vise, and a bushel of tooling (an actual bushel) for $600, about 25 miles away. I called immediately, asked questions, and told them I'd take it. Took an engine hoist to get it loaded and unloaded but I ended up with a usable (not ideal certainly) mill that takes care of my needs. It complements my $200 Atlas 12x24 lathe and my 9" South Bend which were each $200 with tooling. They aren't the top of the line tools, but they are what I could afford and they work well for what I do now, and for my sons also.
When you find something you can afford that looks like it will suit your needs, get it. You'll learn a lot
.

 

[bfr57]

Have a chance to buy an older vertical mill, think it’s an Enco. I’ve never used one before but love fabricating. I have a drill press, TIG, MIG, etc. What kind of things do you make with yours? Can letters be cut? Without CNC is it limited? Any insight to vertical mills?

The owner decided to keep his mill, but thanks for all of the inputs. Definitely on my shopping list now!

 

[ndnchf]

I've had this Enco RF30 for about 23 years. It continues to serve me well. I've made hundreds of things on it and use it regularly.

 

[Aaron_W]

I've had this Enco RF30 for about 23 years. It continues to serve me well. I've made hundreds of things on it and use it regularly.

These "round column" mills get a lot of hate, but they seem ideal for somebody who just kind of wants a mill for non-specific work. A lot beefier than any mini-mill and they mostly just seem to lack convenience (more work due to frequent need to re-align the head) compared to a square column. I've seen them asking as little as $300 in needs some TLC condition and quite often see them for $800-1200 ready to go with tooling.

Worst case they make a very solid drill press. I already have a small mill, but with what many seem to think a vintage drill press is worth, I'm starting to consider one of these specifically as a drill press if the price was right.

 

[ez-duzit]

...vertical mill...What kind of things do you make with yours?...

The first part I ever made on a mill was this end fitting for a sailboat boom of 4" diameter. Made of aluminum to my own design using a 12" Troyke rotary table on my ancient manual Index mill. The plastic sheaves were purchased. The axle was made on my lathe.

 

[mikegt4]

The first part I ever made on a mill was this end fitting for a sailboat boom of 4" diameter. Made of aluminum to my own design using a 12" Troyke rotary table on my ancient manual Index mill. The plastic sheaves were purchased. The axle was made on my lathe.

Nice job ez-duzit. I may have to make a mast base socket for my old 1957 Rhodes 18 (not 19) as the original is pretty corroded from decades of salt water use. The elliptical shape so it is a bit challenging on my manual Millrite. You gave me some inspiration.

BTW, Troyke is about 4 miles from me, a multi-generation small family business still making great products. They are tucked back in a WW2 era homes neighborhood squeezed between a railroad yard and an old storefront shopping district. I stopped in there years ago to inquire about some parts for a friend, they took care of him dispite the fact that his rotary table had been discontinued decades ago. Here is their building at the end of a residential street.

 

[ez-duzit]

4--thank you.

I'm pretty happy to have that rotary table.

 

[Jawn]

If you can get a decent mill for a decent price, do it. I have a Clausing 8530, and its easily the favorite tool in the shop. Be warned, you will soon want a lathe....and like others said, tooling will eat you alive, but its worth it.

For tooling, nothing beats eBay. You can pick up end mils by the pound, used collets, etc...

A local guy has a similar Clausing he's talked about selling. Once I get my workshop to the point that I can use it, I may have to pay him a visit. Would be a nice upgrade over my HF round column mill/drill.