New pole barn unlevel floor fill questions

[moddedstang]

Hello all,

I recently had my 24x44 pole barn put up. The area where the barn was placed had a small garage demolished in the front half and the entire property has a slope in the rear. I tried to level the area the best I could with the allowed time. Unfortunately this left the entire area low.

The new barn was built with the concrete floor height being set about 2 inches above the driveway and surrounding grade of neighbors lot. Because of the garage removal and topsoil in rear, that leaves me with having to build up the floor and outside perimeter. After deducting 4-5 inches for concrete, the fill for floor will have to be about 11" in the front and 19" in the rear of the building. Same thing will have to happen on the outside to build slope away from the building since the rear posts are only 2 feet into the ground and need to get that area higher for Ohio frost.

I have looked at numerous posts and seen so many different opinions on fill types and methods. I have a very small plate compactor and skidsteer to bring material in.

My question is, what are some thoughts as to what stone to bring in to build that base. Would 304 limestone or 304 recycled concrete be the recommendation then top 4-6" of #57? Should I put down something bigger to start until I am above bottom skirt board?

Any recommendations are appreciated.

 

[jack stand]

Stone is numbered or given a designation regionally or usually a state roads description or number so your choices don't mean much to us.
I'd talk to your concrete guy about his suggestions for your building as far as compactibility or lack thereof at the exterior edges. He's the guy you'll need to satisfy in order for him to stand behind it to the extent he can.

 

[The Cobbler]

2' into the ground will be issues with frost , I don't understand how are you expecting to raise everything ( including inside) up to 4' (assuming that's your frost depth)

 

[TractorJeff]

I used crushed concrete for 2 reasons; 1 is it compacts well and 2 is that it drains.
Your Concrete guy will probably want 3/4" crushed stone to work on.
Ask him his opinion as most answers are regional

 

[moddedstang]

2' into the ground will be issues with frost , I don't understand how are you expecting to raise everything ( including inside) up to 4' (assuming that's your frost depth)

Our frost depth is 42" but my city made me use the Ohio generalized code which was 60" down from where the grade will be (in this case concrete height). The posts are 48" down from grade sitting on top of 12" of poured concrete. But, in the back area where the fall is at, they are not as deep until the backfill is put around the building. Basically, in this case I will have to bring in more dirt to raise the exterior grade to proper height. I thought the same thing and wanted to pay for extra length posts. When having it quoted, four different builders stated it was unnecessary to have longer posts and to just bring up the outside dirt to grade. As for the inside, that's why I made this post.

 

[moddedstang]

I used crushed concrete for 2 reasons; 1 is it compacts well and 2 is that it drains.
Your Concrete guy will probably want 3/4" crushed stone to work on.
Ask him his opinion as most answers are regional

I will call a few concrete guys tomorrow to see what they recommend and/or what they want to work off of. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

[ConCretin]

Don't overthink it. Any granular material is fine so go with whatever is most cost effective in your area. Crushed stone requires minimal compaction but up this way, most people use what we call 'gravel'. It's made up of a range of aggregate sizes including fines and compacts without voids. Gravel aggregates can be crushed or screened. Using a max aggregate size of 3/4" in all or just the top lift will make fine grading much easier to maintain a consistent slab thickness.

Your slab doesn't care what material it sits on as long as it provides uniform support. The pressure applied to the ground by the slab and the things placed on it are minimal in geotechnical terms. Any stable, compatible granular material is fine,

 

[rburke65]

I don’t know if you have any idea on how many tons/yards of fill and dirt you will need but you’ll end up need at least double your estimate

 

[Bretny]

Dont bother with stone on the outside as it's not needed and may not insulate from the frost like you need. As for the interior find out how deep and how to compact for the stone needed under the concrete floor. Then subtract the concrete depth from the final surface along with needed stone base..this will leave you with how much dirt fill will be needed.

Also NOW would be a good time to add underground downspouts as you would just cover them up in the future.

Are you doing to do this work your self?

 

[moddedstang]

Dont bother with stone on the outside as it's not needed and may not insulate from the frost like you need. As for the interior find out how deep and how to compact for the stone needed under the concrete floor. Then subtract the concrete depth from the final surface along with needed stone base..this will leave you with how much dirt fill will be needed.

Also NOW would be a good time to add underground downspouts as you would just cover them up in the future.

Are you doing to do this work your self?

I was going to do the prep work and have a concrete finisher for the concrete. The entire outside will be built up with dirt. Do you see an issue with filling the entire inside with stone? Or is dirt needed for frost on the inside as well?

 

[Bretny]

I think its wide to do it your self. You can literally buy a laser level and rent a machine and still be ahead and know it's done correctly. Woulnt dirt be cheaper than stone?

I'm not sure on the interior needing dirt also for insulation factor.

 

[K'ledgeBldr]

If you’re down to virgin soil that is compacted enough for a slab, I’d bring in more of the same and do 3-4 lifts with compaction. Then you only need a regular 4-6” of 57stone as the base for the slab.

Using only stone to bring the height up will be rather expensive.

 

[NUTTSGT]

If you’re down to virgin soil that is compacted enough for a slab, I’d bring in more of the same and do 3-4 lifts with compaction. Then you only need a regular 4-6” of 57stone as the base for the slab.

Using only stone to bring the height up will be rather expensive.

If the OP is fairly local to me, stone is cheap. There are several limestone quarries (National) and is probably easier to use crushed limestone than to find decent soil to fill with.

OP, not sure where in Ohio you are. Normally I use stone from National but when I built my addition, I needed several tons of fill. I used part of the driveway I removed and got the rest of what I needed from Kirby's. (Wyandot County) It was almost half the cost from National. (Bucyrus plant)

I used some broken asphalt driveway at the bottom, some 411s and I'd have to see if I still have the receipt from last Fall. That'll tell what size I used and price/ton.

 

[moddedstang]

If the OP is fairly local to me, stone is cheap. There are several limestone quarries (National) and is probably easier to use crushed limestone than to find decent soil to fill with.

OP, not sure where in Ohio you are. Normally I use stone from National but when I built my addition, I needed several tons of fill. I used part of the driveway I removed and got the rest of what I needed from Kirby's. (Wyandot County) It was almost half the cost from National. (Bucyrus plant)

I used some broken asphalt driveway at the bottom, some 411s and I'd have to see if I still have the receipt from last Fall. That'll tell what size I used and price/ton.

I live by Cleveland. I want to use stone or recycled crushed concrete over dirt for easier compaction.

The pricing has been all over the place. Right now I am working on hiring a truck for half day/day which will cost 3-600 and the 304 (1.5" down to dust)stone is running from 15.50 to 22.00 / ton. I have found 304 recycled for about 12.00 a ton.

My biggest concern is frost. The dirt on the outside will be brought up 24 inches to get to required frost depth of 48 inches. My question (as dumb as it might sound), is adding 18 inches of stone on the inside of building for the pad going to protect from frost the same way the dirt would have if this was a leveled build? My gut tells me yes but I thought I would ask since I don't want to do this twice or have damage to the building because I should have done something different. Thanks

 

[NUTTSGT]

Once you get the dirt down on the outside, you should be fine.

Keep in mind, when compacting the interior, if you don't have the dirt on the outside and start running a plate compactor, don't push out your PT ledger boards so they start bowing.

I'd have no issues using the recycled stuff. Just need to compact it like everything else.

 

[moddedstang]

If the OP is fairly local to me, stone is cheap. There are several limestone quarries (National) and is probably easier to use crushed limestone than to find decent soil to fill with.

OP, not sure where in Ohio you are. Normally I use stone from National but when I built my addition, I needed several tons of fill. I used part of the driveway I removed and got the rest of what I needed from Kirby's. (Wyandot County) It was almost half the cost from National. (Bucyrus plant)

I used some broken asphalt driveway at the bottom, some 411s and I'd have to see if I still have the receipt from last Fall. That'll tell what size I used and price/ton.

Did you use the 411's under your concrete or clean 57's?

I have had multiple concrete guys out here and a few of them are stating I need 4" of clean 57s before concrete and others are saying the top coat can be 304 or 411 limestone.

 

[NUTTSGT]

The 304 & 411 are about the same thing. Just different sized gravel with dust.

Some have the theory that 57's don't compact and you can pour right over them. I've run a plate compactor over them, they will compact, not much but they will. If it's mine, I'm doing everything I can to compact the sub grade.

Off hand, I can't remember exactly what I used in the addition. I know the first layer was rocks I dug out, broken chunks asphalt from the driveway and all my CMU block pieces. All the block were broken and everything was laid flat with no pockets or air gaps.

 

[NUTTSGT]

If you put a few inches of 304/411s down, you'll need to compact it, wet it and compact it again. It'll get about as hard as the concrete itself.

It won't move or slide around if you run a wheelbarrow across it when pouring.

 

[NUTTSGT]

Garage Refurb®

Looking great! And the weather is supposed to be pretty good for the week!

www.garagejournal.com

On my phone so not sure if that link will work. It's from my garage refurb thread. I used 411 as the top layer.

 

[moddedstang]

The 304 & 411 are about the same thing. Just different sized gravel with dust.

Some have the theory that 57's don't compact and you can pour right over them. I've run a plate compactor over them, they will compact, not much but they will. If it's mine, I'm doing everything I can to compact the sub grade.

Off hand, I can't remember exactly what I used in the addition. I know the first layer was rocks I dug out, broken chunks asphalt from the driveway and all my CMU block pieces. All the block were broken and everything was laid flat with no pockets or air gaps.

I appreciate you taking the time and info. I started reading the thread and will continue to read it over the next few days. I am in a rush right now with only a week left of having a skid steer and a lot of stone to still move/compact and these heavy rains we keep getting flooding me out from the old stone driveway I had to dig down to get into the garage since it was so low. Nice '86 btw. I have an 83 and 84.

Since I had the wedge to fill I used 304s and started with 4 inch layer from the rear to about the middle and compacted. Second layer from the back to about 3/4 way and compacted then a 3rd layer from the back to the front and compacted. I wetted down before compacting and went over it twice with the compactor each time. When trying to compact over it a 3rd time, the compactor was just bouncing around and wouldn't compact anymore. I thought maybe the compactor wasn't heavy enough but after parking the skid steer inside over a few days and not sinking, hoping it was enough. I have about another two layers of 304s. I purchased the 411s for the top 2 inches to smooth out the big rock from the 304s as you suggested.

I have two outside aprons - front that is about 8x28 that will connect to the current slabs next to the house/driveway which is a single concrete and the other half is stone. The side apron will also have a sidewalk from the front connecting to an old piece of concrete between it and the building and then running to the rear side door apron.

Would you use same method for outside concrete? 304 and 411s? Pin the old concrete to the new? Using the fiberglass mesh for inside and outside. No rebar or wire since a buggy will be used for the concrete from the road.

Thanks again.

 

[NUTTSGT]

On the PC in the garage and looking at my receipts. I used #4 crushed (3/4"-2") and topped mine with 411s.
Kirby's states, 411 are 3/4 & smaller with dust while the 304s are 1 1/2" & smaller with dust.

Yes, I'd have no issue using the same thing outside to prep for a pour. So would pin it together but I probably would. I'd prefer to keep the different sections of concrete level and prevent one from heaving during the winter.

BTW, nice looking building. Parents new building uses the same colors.

 

[moddedstang]

I appreciate the help. I will use the 304 outside as well and top again with 411 to smooth it out. I was going to remove that old slab on the side in front of the man door but running out of funds for the project and it is pitched away. So I figured if I pinned it hopefully should be fine.
Thank you for the compliment. I wanted vinyl and shingles but with covid, pricing and availability took over.
I like the way you have your shop set up. We have restrictions on height so I used 10' ceiling with scissor trusses for possible car lift in the center rear later. Debating on a portable lift to start with to maximize space. Sick of using jacks and stands, working on the ground etc. Was going to pour the area I thought a 2 post may go a little thicker since I am not using rebar and steel mesh. Still deciding on concrete thickness, another item none of the contractors agreed with.