Attempted Highway Robbery by HVAC company

[Doug]

My garage heat pump's fan stopped running awhile back. I have a good working knowledge of these things. I checked the contactor and I ohmed out the motor, the capacitor and checked all of the connections, all good. I called a local HVAC repair company and they came over and diagnosed the problem as a bad fan motor. I told him to give me a price on replacing it and he came back with a quote of $660.00. I told him to never mind and that I'd replace it myself. He said that if I had the ability to do the job to go for it, so I did.

The local supply house had the correct motor and I bought a new capacitor to go with it. My all-in cost was $240.00 to get this thing going (including their $90.00 'service charge' to get them to the house).

I disassembled the old motor and found that the bushings were bad and the armature was shorting out against the field windings. (I have a background in this sort of thing) There was no forewarning of this.

I had it running in about 2 hours from the time the HVAC company left my property.

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Another one, same company.....during the pre-purchase inspection of this property I hired them to inspect the gas-pack setup that heats/cools the house. While had had the cover off I asked the guy if he could install a hard start capacitor, as I have a generator. He went back to the truck and came back with the same model numbered Supco cap that I had already planned to install. Only $235.00 he said. I told him that his price was flat-out highway robbery and told him to put the cover back on the unit. This cap sells on the open market for $35.00 - 40.00.

This company is in Salisbury, NC and if you're interested in knowing who NOT to do business with, message me.

 

[kelpaso1]

My garage heat pump's fan stopped running awhile back. I have a good working knowledge of these things. I checked the contactor and I ohmed out the motor, the capacitor and checked all of the connections, all good. I called a local HVAC repair company and they came over and diagnosed the problem as a bad fan motor. I told him to give me a price on replacing it and he came back with a quote of $660.00. I told him to never mind and that I'd replace it myself. He said that if I had the ability to do the job to go for it, so I did.

The local supply house had the correct motor and I bought a new capacitor to go with it. My all-in cost was $240.00 to get this thing going (including their $90.00 'service charge' to get them to the house).

I disassembled the old motor and found that the bushings were bad and the armature was shorting out against the field windings. (I have a background in this sort of thing) There was no forewarning of this.

I had it running in about 2 hours from the time the HVAC company left my property.

If I was the HVAC guy I would have charged you at least $200 to diagnose if a customer did that. Do you take your car to a shop to have something diagnosed and then expect to pay nothing and do the repair yourself?

He's got a van to gas up and maintain, his time, and he has the parts or goes to pick them up and then install them. It's no different than any business. I had a guy come and do my garage door spring. Cost me $200 and he was done in an hour. Sure I could have got a spring for $60 and spent 2 hours doing it my self but I have better things to do with my time.

 

[Half-fast eddie]

When you calculated the $240 all-in cost for the motor, did you include gas, insurance and depreciation on your vehicle for the trip to the supply house? How about insurance and bennies for yourself? Depreciation on the tools? Sundry supplies like rags?

 

[FJ 432]

Doug,

Good for you for fixing the issue yourself.

Bad for you on criticizing a $660 quote. That is cheap.

 

[P0234]

Not cheap but around here it would probably be just short of $1000 if you found an honest guy. 3 out of 4 would say bad flux capacitor and you need to replace the whole unit unless you want your family to die of dihydrogen monoxide poisoning.

 

[ace10]

OP, what do you think would have been a not "highway robbery" price?

 

[Terry D]

Be thankful that you have the knowledge to make these repairs. But what I don't understand is why you even called someone if you can do it yourself. That is pretty much the going rate for that repair

 

[Doug]

When you calculated the $240 all-in cost for the motor, did you include gas, insurance and depreciation on your vehicle for the trip to the supply house? How about insurance and bennies for yourself? Depreciation on the tools? Sundry supplies like rags?

I am retired and have all the time in the world and you're splitting hairs about depeciation and the other things you mentioned. I had no complaint with the company charging me to diagnose the problem. They diagnosed; I paid. Case closed on that one. I have a full understanding of how overhead works after successfully running a service business for 40 years and 4 months. I have every right to decline an estimate for quoted work regardless of whether I'm going to do the work myself or look for a lower price elsewhere.

I still take issue with them wanting to triple (or more) their money on the capacitor.

 

[FMB4]

Ya, $660 ain't bad imo. Several years ago our HVAC blower motor failed (house was built in '02). I purchased a new motor and cap that had good feed back for ~ $190 IIRC. Took me about an hour or so to install it. About a year later our next door neighbors had their HVAC blower fail. They paid something like $800+ for the diagnosis, motor/cap and installation.

As for the cap price; there are many brands that vary in price and place of manufacture. But hey, the cap price is a small fraction of the entire job. Meanwhile, you declined the estimate. Good for you. Time to move on.

 

[bonneyman]

Yes OP - prices for repairs these days are outrageous. But $660 for a fan motor isn't that unusual - these days. When I was doing service a condenser fan motor job was around $250-300 if it was anything standard of a motor. Motor wholesaled at $75 (I marked it up to $160). Installation was usually an hour or less - $70. I got a new cap, wire nuts, and wire ties free. I paid the sales tax to make it easier to calculate. $25 trip charge. Tough fan blade removal added a little. 9 times out of 10 no biggie.

Many companies have gone from hourly rates to "flat rate" pricing. The techs are given a book (sorry, I'm old - and ap on their smart phone) that lists all the possible repairs and the price to do it. Last company I worked for wanted $300 of a run cap. For a cap that wholesales for $18 and takes about 10 minutes to swap out. Sickening but that's the way it is.

 

[HaiKarate]

I was expecting someone getting bent over for $10k for a mini-split install. I think HVAC is a racket but this doesn't sound too out of line.

The local supply house probably sells them the same exact motor for $150.

 

[chrispyny]

Im with the other guys doug. I appreciate you fixing it yourself. Great work. But $660 aint bad for what he quoted. most people don’t have our skills to do this kinda work. Feel good you saved the money. Feel good that you were quoted a FAIR price for that work. And use that companies services again if and when you can.

 

[Jeepster04]

You ohmed the motor and it tested good?

$660 isn't bad at all.

 

[PoorUB]

I worked as a HVAC service tech for twelve years, then nine years as a salesman for a HVAC supply.

IMO the $660 price is crazy, unless there was some time driving. It also depends on the area of the country Around here the motor would sell to the homeowner for $150'ish, and labor , about 1 to 1-1/2 hours and that would include some time checking over the unit once it was running. Around here that would be a $350-$400 bill, plus mileage if out of the city.

 

[bonneyman]

Alot of my friends thought paying the sales tax for most calls was stupid. But I didn't have to calculate the tax every invoice, and if I undertaxed say a nickel on each job and did 40 calls a month, I was out $2 at tax filing time. That was a whole lot cheaper than batteries for the calculator - or solar cells on cheapie calcs going bad regularly. Way back I got free calcs at supply stores and promotional places. About 10 years ago that dried up. And buying them 10 at a time at Office Depot got ridiculous.
Plus every invoice was an even amount - no cents. Made deposits slips easier at the bank, too.

Cost me a little over time but a whole lot less frustration and aggravation. It was worth it!

 

[Lassen Forge]

OK, call me a rat, but I'm not understanding that if you already diagnosed it yourself that it was a bad motor, why you called the cat out, had him show up, diagnose the issue, instead of just going down to the supply house, picking up a replacement motor yourself, and replacing the motor yourself?

A man's time is worth something... they break away from their other jobs, load up the truck and tools, and head on out there, it's not free for them to do that. Part of the "highway robbery" (??) is his wage for showing up and putting in a couple hours to do the job.

I used to do hazmat callout work. I was NOT cheap, but I was damned good. But when I got the call and showed up, you paid for my knowledge, my licenses, and my training, as well as my equipment and supplies at the delivered cost of whatever our rate sheet showed... IMO, if you had someone show up, he did it, not out of the kindness of their heart, but because they run a business to put food on their table. If he did any less, then he doesn't deserve to be in business.

 

[Git]

OK, call me a rat, but I'm not understanding that if you already diagnosed it yourself that it was a bad motor, why you called the cat out, had him show up, diagnose the issue, instead of just going down to the supply house, picking up a replacement motor yourself, and replacing the motor yourself?

A man's time is worth something... they break away from their other jobs, load up the truck and tools, and head on out there, it's not free for them to do that. Part of the "highway robbery" (??) is his wage for showing up and putting in a couple hours to do the job.

I used to do hazmat callout work. I was NOT cheap, but I was damned good. But when I got the call and showed up, you paid for my knowledge, my licenses, and my training, as well as my equipment and supplies at the delivered cost of whatever our rate sheet showed... IMO, if you had someone show up, he did it, not out of the kindness of their heart, but because they run a business to put food on their table. If he did any less, then he doesn't deserve to be in business.

OP has already said he has no problem paying for the diagnosis:

"I had no complaint with the company charging me to diagnose the problem. They diagnosed; I paid"

 

[Lassen Forge]

Hate it when I miss a whole line like that in an OP's post... Sorry for that.

 

[quickfarms]

The problem with all the trades now is using the internet anyone can get the part in a few days for the same price, or cheaper, that the parts house.

what he was charging you for was the time to drive to the parts house, return, and install it plus some markup

how much time did you spend on this repair?

What is the techs hourly rate?

people ***** about our hourly rate but that also covers the insurance, truck, cost of equipment, supplies and the markup also has to cover all of the proposals and lately there are a lot of ghosts and price shoppers. I had a guy hang up on me today because I told him it would take a couple of days to a week to get him an estimate. I had another guy thank me for taking his call. Another guy told me the first 6 companies he called said not interested.

anything related to construction is crazy now.

My AC guy told me to wait until the winter for the next install

 

[Sumboodie]

OP, what do you think would have been a not "highway robbery" price?

I helped my buddy out at his OPE shop.

Some of the cheap people through fits when I got rid of the "$20 fixes" and every repair was 30 min labor min at $45. Also no more "free diagnosis". Don't want it fixed, ok, but that's $45 for my time to figure out what's wrong
We fix it, I'll roll that time into the whole job and it's "free".
Did make exceptions at times for very quick fixes or repeat customers.
It got rid of many of the time wasters and brought in the paying customers.

"I can do it myself for $50 of parts. I'm not paying you $100 to do it."... sooooo why are you here?

 

[Sumboodie]

I worked as a HVAC service tech for twelve years, then nine years as a salesman for a HVAC supply.

IMO the $660 price is crazy, unless there was some time driving. It also depends on the area of the country Around here the motor would sell to the homeowner for $150'ish, and labor , about 1 to 1-1/2 hours and that would include some time checking over the unit once it was running. Around here that would be a $350-$400 bill, plus mileage if out of the city.

As with anything, area matters.

One area a water heater replacement might be $1000, in another area that wouldn't keep the business afloat or it may be way more and "highway robbery"

 

[59 wagon man]

its a shame that decent hardworking contractors cant post reviews for cheapskate customers

 

[Doug]

OK, call me a rat, but I'm not understanding that if you already diagnosed it yourself that it was a bad motor, why you called the cat out, had him show up, diagnose the issue, instead of just going down to the supply house, picking up a replacement motor yourself, and replacing the motor yourself?

Had you read what I wrote, you would have noted that I tested the motor for electrical problems, not mechanical ones, which turned out to be the issue.

 

[yeldogt]

I assume the $90 was the cost of the HVAC company looking over the equipment -- telling you what was wrong?

So it was another $660? Taking the tax away it's $600. Sad to say that's in the ball park ...

I have a service contract and the listed cost to replace one of the motors in the two oil units I have at that place was around $700 -- they are belt driven where the motor is even easier to flip out. I googled the motors and the are in the $150 range

 

[PoorUB]

I would have loved to see a breakdown of the $660 quote. How much forthe motor, how much for labor. The motor is going to cost the same every where in the USA, within a few dollars. some guys mark up stuff crazy amounts, most are pretty reasonable.

I know of a shop in the area that the $660 quote would have been cheap, but he other twenty contractors in the area would have charged the $350-$400 I mentioned.

I had a contractor as me how much for a condenser fan motor and how much would I have charged for the repair and we agreed. He went on the call, fixed the customers AC and billed him something like $375. Later on he showed me a quote from another company for the job, $650, plus the diagnostic fee of $75 that they paid already. The company that charged the $375 is probably the largest in the area, the $650 quote has a three man service crew. Both shops are within a mile of each other so trip charge is not an issue.

Keep in mind I was in sales and actually had this conversation with contractors in the area. After the above mention situation when I was out making sales calls asked contractors what they would charge for the call, all were in the price range mentioned, a couple were a few dollars higher, but not enough to mention.

I realize there is mileage. Farther out gets charged more for the time spent. Also the customer pays from the trip to the wholesaler if the part is not in the truck, so you pay for two trips. Bigger cities charge more. Often the minimum can be $200-$300 just to show up. I remember talking to a contractor that worked in New York city. Minimum charge was $450 and they got an hour labor with that, so $300 of it was just to show up! A trip to a wholesale house might be a couple hours with traffic! He told me was not unusual to do just two simple service calls a day because of the conflicts of working in a large city.

 

[P0234]

I assume the $90 was the cost of the HVAC company looking over the equipment -- telling you what was wrong?

So it was another $660? Taking the tax away it's $600. Sad to say that's in the ball park ...

I have a service contract and the listed cost to replace one of the motors in the two oil units I have at that place was around $700 -- they are belt driven where the motor is even easier to flip out. I googled the motors and the are in the $150 range

How much is the service contract and will they keep your system limping along forever?

 

[shoot summ]

The owners of the house next door are elderly, it's her Parents house, it's really their storage facility as they live in a high end retirement community. They have the HVAC serviced twice a year by a "reputable" company. Last year I was there when the tech showed up, she immediately claims the coil is cracked, and they need a new system. Granted the system is about 20 years old(air handler/coil) and the outside unit is about 10 years old. Since cooling season was over we told the Tech we would deal with it this year. Fast forward to a couple of months ago, house had a frozen water line burst from the cold in February, repairs were being completed, AC had been running a couple of weeks with no issues. The new Tech comes in to tell the Owner and I that there is NO refrigerant in the system, likely due to the cracked a-coil. He went into great detail to describe the little valve in the line that he pushed and nothing came out, I told him it was a Shrader Valve. He proceeded to tell us the system was old and needed to be replaced, they had a super special offer to replace the system, and do regular maintenance calls for 10 years, for only $200 a month, it's a 2000sq ft single story home, that's $24K for the system, and maintenance(no parts/labor, just clean and inspect twice a year).

I told him it was odd that the system had been keeping the house cool during the repairs with no issues, and that it was actually running and cooling right now. He walked off looking puzzled...

A bit later he comes in, tells us he really screwed up, his "gauges" are blue tooth, and they were still set to the last house, the system in fine, no issues, running perfectly. Then he spent another 10 minutes trying to talks us through the deception we caught him in, and how it was really just an honest mistake, but we really should consider replacing the system as it is old, he should have just walked.

The system continues to work just fine, through several 100 degree days, and many days in the 90's. It will have issues eventually, they will have to decide then what to do, and have the new service company bid on it.

What really concerns me is if I hadn't been there, the Owners would have jumped on the new system with no hesitation, they are in their mid 80's and would have believed the Service Tech. Unfortunately there are probably many folks that get suckered into these deals.

 

[yeldogt]

How much is the service contract and will they keep your system limping along forever?

They are a bit over $300 each + the water heater .. my memory is $225. Something fails every year .... it's not a house we use full time so I need the service contracts. Service contracts are common with oil heat

 

[Lassen Forge]

Lassen Forge said:
OK, call me a rat, but I'm not understanding that if you already diagnosed it yourself that it was a bad motor, why you called the cat out, had him show up, diagnose the issue, instead of just going down to the supply house, picking up a replacement motor yourself, and replacing the motor yourself?

Doug said:
Had you read what I wrote, you would have noted that I tested the motor for electrical problems, not mechanical ones, which turned out to be the issue.

Yep, like I said yesterday, totally missed that part... Sorry about that.

 

[karoc]

When I ran roads doing service calls, the worse people to deal with was retired people. One that comes to mind is guy with two red matching cadillacs gripping at me wanting a seniors discount. Clip 5.00 coupon to invoice, homeowner happy, me shaking my head.

 

[P0234]

When I ran roads doing service calls, the worse people to deal with was retired people. One that comes to mind is guy with two red matching cadillacs gripping at me wanting a seniors discount. Clip 5.00 coupon to invoice, homeowner happy, me shaking my head.

I ask for a deal all the time too. I have a few nice cars in my driveway too. Funny thing is I seem to get a discount a lot of times. No one has increased their bill after I asked. Guess that makes me a terrible person.

 

[danski0224]

My garage heat pump's fan stopped running awhile back. I have a good working knowledge of these things. I checked the contactor and I ohmed out the motor, the capacitor and checked all of the connections, all good. I called a local HVAC repair company and they came over and diagnosed the problem as a bad fan motor. I told him to give me a price on replacing it and he came back with a quote of $660.00. I told him to never mind and that I'd replace it myself. He said that if I had the ability to do the job to go for it, so I did.

The local supply house had the correct motor and I bought a new capacitor to go with it. My all-in cost was $240.00 to get this thing going (including their $90.00 'service charge' to get them to the house).

I disassembled the old motor and found that the bushings were bad and the armature was shorting out against the field windings. (I have a background in this sort of thing) There was no forewarning of this.

I had it running in about 2 hours from the time the HVAC company left my property.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Another one, same company.....during the pre-purchase inspection of this property I hired them to inspect the gas-pack setup that heats/cools the house. While had had the cover off I asked the guy if he could install a hard start capacitor, as I have a generator. He went back to the truck and came back with the same model numbered Supco cap that I had already planned to install. Only $235.00 he said. I told him that his price was flat-out highway robbery and told him to put the cover back on the unit. This cap sells on the open market for $35.00 - 40.00.

This company is in Salisbury, NC and if you're interested in knowing who NOT to do business with, message me.

You obviously have no idea what it costs to own a business and provide a service... and hopefully make a profit doing so.

If anything, you ripped them off with a free diagnostic, assuming that you didn't pay for their diagnostic time. That's why people don't write the problem out, but rather "failed electrical component, replacement is $***".

And some hard start kits are good, others are garbage.

 

[danski0224]

The owners of the house next door are elderly, it's her Parents house, it's really their storage facility as they live in a high end retirement community. They have the HVAC serviced twice a year by a "reputable" company. Last year I was there when the tech showed up, she immediately claims the coil is cracked, and they need a new system. <snip>

What really concerns me is if I hadn't been there, the Owners would have jumped on the new system with no hesitation, they are in their mid 80's and would have believed the Service Tech. Unfortunately there are probably many folks that get suckered into these deals.

Unfortunately, this is standard operating procedure for HVAC companies, particularly in the residential market.

The "performance based pay", "bonuses", "spiffs", "kickbacks" and so forth make it REALLY difficult for the employee to be honest.

Employer metrics make it almost impossible to do anything else other than try to sell a new system (no time for diagnostics and repair). And yes, there is a point where it is no longer practical to pay someone to keep using bandaids and bailing wire on old equipment.

The biggest non union HVAC company in the Chicago metro area had a "bad heat exchanger" competition a few years ago, and the prize was a new Mustang Cobra and the taxes covered. Lotsa people got swindled that year (and probably every year with whatever "contest" is going on now).

 

[danski0224]

I would have loved to see a breakdown of the $660 quote. How much forthe motor, how much for labor.

Never, ever provide a breakdown.

Then people shop the part and complain about the price because it's $2 cheaper on Amazon. They complain about the labor price.

Package deal, take it or leave it.

Same with bids. You want a breakdown, then you provide the material... and I'm not making your parts list for free.

 

[Git]

You obviously have no idea what it costs to own a business and provide a service... and hopefully make a profit doing so.

If anything, you ripped them off with a free diagnostic, assuming that you didn't pay for their diagnostic time. That's why people don't write the problem out, but rather "failed electrical component, replacement is $***".

And some hard start kits are good, others are garbage.

 

[CoogarXR]

I always find these type of threads interesting. There's always somebody who thinks they got the upper hand on a shady tech. Then there's techs in the business calling out cheapskate customers. No matter what the field, HVAC, construction, auto repair, it's all the same, lol.

 

[danski0224]

Too much skimming. Thanks for calling that out.

I still do not think that the quoted prices for the recommended work were significantly out of line. Automotive dealer shop rates are $150 -ish an hour. A HVAC place shouldn't be billing for much less. I know of one shop billing commercial service at $225 an hour, and everything used on the call is also billed out (shop supplies like nitrogen, Sawzall blades, whatever- plus the parts and markup).

 

[karoc]

I'm proud to say over the many yrs that I ran service calls I never thought or tried to rip someone off. I never adjusted an invoice to compensate for coupon. I have never sold my soul to devil to make few dollars off homeowner, there are lot others service techs who are the same way. But I am sure there are some tech who does try take advantage along with home owners who think they pulling a fast one over companys trying get something for nothing. And I have dealt with a lot of those. I'm glad that I am no longer in residential field these days, I imagine trying to run company these days has to be tough for the guys being the owner or service tech dealing with homeowners running around with computers in palm of their hands price shopping for parts.

 

[jjrbus]

So I called for service the highly trained tech showed up in a shiny white van that was wrapped with the company logo. He had a Harbor Freight vacuum pump. and no flairing tool with him! $95 hour, I should have made a video.

 

[PoorUB]

Never, ever provide a breakdown.

Then people shop the part and complain about the price because it's $2 cheaper on Amazon. They complain about the labor price.

Package deal, take it or leave it.

Same with bids. You want a breakdown, then you provide the material... and I'm not making your parts list for free.

Our service work price was always broken down. If customers bitched about it and said they could buy the parts for less money elsewhere I just asked them why they called us then? I would go on to explain they don't have ongoing training, payroll, trucks, licenses, inventory, insurance, experience, a shop and tools to pay for. Of course they could do it for less money, maybe!. If they still get fussy about it I would just tell them to call someone else next time if we are too expensive. I couldn't tell you the number of times we had a customer go away for a few years, only to call us back again. I have had customers said they would buy their own parts and have us install they, nope, we won't. If we buy the part, we warranty the repair. If they buy the part and it fails they get charged again and good luck getting warranty on the part, so we just didn't do it. Too many pissed off customers if they provide the part because they feel we were responsible if it failed.

I have never worried about our pricing. I also never worried about what other shops were doing. I ran a four man service department and we were busy. When we got too busy we raised prices and some of the cheapskates would go elsewhere only to come back again. We were the prime contractor for a huge mall, also for a huge well known hospital chain, plus many others in the area. We weren't the cheapest, but not the highest priced either. I often had customers tell me that they called us because we were no B.S., we were honest with the customer and fixed it correctly the first time.