I am always conscious of this when I am working jobs. People do judge you on your tools. I just posted about this the other day; some scientist was doing a demonstration online... while using the free Harbor Freight multimeter (facepalm).
Attempted Highway Robbery by HVAC company
- Thread starter Doug
- Start date
I am always conscious of this when I am working jobs. People do judge you on your tools. I just posted about this the other day; some scientist was doing a demonstration online... while using the free Harbor Freight multimeter (facepalm).
LS6 Tommy
Well-known member
Not HVAC, but similar "highway robbery": I went to Lowes for a new chandelier as they advertised $99 installation, but then the fine print says for ceilings up to 14 feet. My ceiling is 18 feet, so they then wanted $400 to install a $300 lamp. I contacted a local lamp store and they quoted $230/hr because they would send 2 guys, and it would likely be 2 hours. I don't get how an electrician and some helper guy to hold the ladder works out to $230/hr!
AngryBeaver
Well-known member
its real simple actually. Just about every decent electrician in the midwest makes 35-50 bucks and hour. For the employer to pay him, his benefits, their insurance, their company truck, their company auto insurance you are well over 100 bucks an hour to employ that one employee and that doesn’t even include his pension if union, 401k etc. most electrical contractors in the Midwest charge 125-175 bucks and hour. So I’d say they quoted you cheap.
American Locomotive
Well-known member
Was this an indoor fan, or an outdoor unit fan? If it was a condenser fan, I'd agree that $660 is too high. It's 30-45 minutes of labor for most condensing units. $90 for a diagnosis isn't too bad, I suppose. I'd expect more like $400-450 all-in.
I try to fix most things myself, as most common HVAC repairs are will within the capabilities of just about any homeowner. Fan motor, capacitor, contactors, etc.. can be done by just about anyone. About the only thing I won't do my self are combustion adjustments, mainly because I don't have a gas analyzer or a draft gauge.
I don't mind paying someone who has the right tools to do the job correctly. However it's been my experience that HVAC techs seem to be 50/50. Seems that every other one is a complete imbecile who has no idea what they're doing and/or tries to scam people. The other half are pretty decent, then every now and then you find someone who REALLY knows what they're doing.
But even if I find someone who knows what they're doing, I still want an itemized list. Break down parts and labor or get out of my house. I'm not about to cut you a check for $1200 if it's a $250 part that takes 30 minutes to install.
I try to fix most things myself, as most common HVAC repairs are will within the capabilities of just about any homeowner. Fan motor, capacitor, contactors, etc.. can be done by just about anyone. About the only thing I won't do my self are combustion adjustments, mainly because I don't have a gas analyzer or a draft gauge.
I don't mind paying someone who has the right tools to do the job correctly. However it's been my experience that HVAC techs seem to be 50/50. Seems that every other one is a complete imbecile who has no idea what they're doing and/or tries to scam people. The other half are pretty decent, then every now and then you find someone who REALLY knows what they're doing.
But even if I find someone who knows what they're doing, I still want an itemized list. Break down parts and labor or get out of my house. I'm not about to cut you a check for $1200 if it's a $250 part that takes 30 minutes to install.
danski0224
Well-known member
Those places typically take the subcontractor rate and double it, and that's what you get charged... if the store doesn't set the rate that the sub gets paid at.
Big box store installed services are not performed by said box store employees.
gatewaysysop
Well-known member
It ***** but that seems the reality. The HVAC and plumbing industries have that reputation because they've earned it.
Wanting almost $100 just to step off the truck truck, 300%+ mark up on Home Depot parts and a neurosurgeon's hourly rate on labor, little wonder they ***** when you ask for a break down of the cost. The only people that won't itemize are the ones who have something to hide or are too ashamed of their pricing practices.
I've honestly never heard any other tradesmen cry foul about an itemized list leading to the customer "shopping parts price" or how it's a "parts list for free," either. If HVAC folks want to be shady and look like they just made **** up based on how much they think someone is worth, they shouldn't be surprised at having a rep for being dishonest and trying to rip people off. It never ceases to amaze me that folks will defend how they make their bed, but then ***** that they have to lay in it.
Some people are happy to throw several grand out the window in complete ignorance and blindly trust that they're not being fleeced. I can't speak for anyone else, but I work hard for my money and like to know what it's paying for. As a general rule, you should be wary of people who expect blind trust and a complete lack of skepticism on your part. That goes doubly when it comes to giving them your money.
Last edited:
Hobby_Man22
Well-known member
The price is what the customer is willing to pay.
And back to the start of this thread---Highway Robbery.
65ranchero
Well-known member
Yup! that's what I have , my thought is: where am I going to get a igniter box or fuel pump in the middle of a -20F night
It includes a cleaning and several years it's paid for it's self ( the service contract)
danski0224
Well-known member
And yet no one complains when the appliance or copier service folks get more than $100 to ring the doorbell, bill over $100 for the first 15 minutes, and then don't have the part and need to come back...
As far as the labor rate goes, it's usually at least 3x what the employer pays (hourly wage + benefits + SS/FICA + work comp + owner desired profit per hour at a minimum), so $150+ an hour as a billable rate isn't too far out of whack as a minimum. The 3x is Kentucky windage math, and most employees do not really understand what their hourly wage package really is.
Oh, and not too many customers will offer up any extra when the scope of work is beyond what is discussed- it becomes your (contractors) problem.
I don't have any issues sleeping at night, nor do I screw people over. I never provide a breakdown. Never.
quickfarms
Well-known member
I was going to write something similar to this
when I was in high school, or college, I was told that every minimum wage employee must make at least twice what they are paid for the employer to get close to covering expenses
as a professional I was taught to use a multiplayer of 3 for office staff and 3.5 for field staff to set billable rates. The actual number can vary greatly depending on the cost of the office, computer, phone, cell phone, tools and vehicle
like2wheel
Well-known member
You auto tech guys agree with this?
PWC Repair
Well-known member
LOL, this is funny. I worked for 18 years at an HVAC supply house as asst. manager. A lot of times, if the 'older' customer was nice or a veteran I would give a discount. BUT... if they were crabby and asked, I would tell them "Actually we do things different around here. We give a discount to young folks just starting out and who might be having trouble making ends meet." Oh boy, you should have seen all the surprised and confused looks I used to get! A couple times through the years I had people respond by saying "Well, I've never heard of that but I remember those days myself. Good for you." And they'd pay and move on.
American Locomotive
Well-known member
That's a pretty common dealer rate. My local independent shop is at around $90/hour.
Pretty sure every business that deals with high volume copying complains about copier service costs. Especially when it continues to have Feed Errors from Tray 2, and you have to call them back 3 more times over the next 5 days because they're incompetent.
Its definitely all in how you ask. If I'm getting a $10 part I don't even waste anyone's time. If its a big bill I'll ask if there is a coupon/club discount I might have missed or if they offer a cash discount. I even will tip if I think they did something too cheap.
DrinkMan
Well-known member
This post was very timely. The very day it was posted, I had a plumber in my basement working on a toilet. We returned from being away for a week to a smelly basement bathroom. I had a lot of projects to do and decided to call the professional. He diagnosed that it seemed to be a wax ring on the toilet and his iPad showed a flat rate of $350. Ouch. But I knew that I did not have to do the work and while the wax ring may be a cheap part, there was a possibility of a bigger problem (which he warned me about). After removing the toilet, he found the flange was cracked and the previous owner had gooped a bunch of caulk around it. Out came the iPad again, new flat rate - $850. Again, ouch. But it was a flat rate for the job. Turned out that it was a rough project that took the professional over 3 hours to do (I knew he was having problems when I saw the Sawzall come out). I checked on him a couple of times (offer drinks, cooling fan, etc...) and saw the great work and parts that looked higher quality than what I would have bought at the big box store. It was worth the big bucks and I did not have to do the work.
I know that I could have stopped the project after the diagnostics and paid the diagnostic fee and fixed it myself and saved some money but for me that day, I valued my time and I valued the quality of his work too much. Different projects mean different decisions. The OP had the time, tools, and talent for that project and he paid for diagnostics. For me, that day, I did not have the time (and my talent was not up to the professional) so I gladly (ok, willingly may be the better term) wrote the check.
I know that I could have stopped the project after the diagnostics and paid the diagnostic fee and fixed it myself and saved some money but for me that day, I valued my time and I valued the quality of his work too much. Different projects mean different decisions. The OP had the time, tools, and talent for that project and he paid for diagnostics. For me, that day, I did not have the time (and my talent was not up to the professional) so I gladly (ok, willingly may be the better term) wrote the check.
SlotlessMan
Well-known member
The quote seemed reasonable to me but I have worked in the TV repair business back in the day. lol. You pay for the travel, knowledge and a supposed guarantee its done right. I remember many times saying...you don't like the quote, fix it yourself!
Jim greengo
Well-known member
You could always climb up 18' and install it yourself.
It all depends on what you value your life,lots of guys have had their careers ended by falling a lot less than 18'.
And I will. I installed the old chandelier and a ceiling fan a few years back by renting a 14' ladder. This time I will rent a 11' scaffold like I did when I painted the rooms. It'll cost me $90 and a few hours of travel/setup/installation, and I know it will be installed correctly. The notion that these contractors want $230/hr and can't commit to how long it will take is insane.
Last edited:
vrinner
Well-known member
I'm sure I've seen this quote on here before and it's a good one...
"If I do a job in 30 minutes it’s because I spent 40 years learning how to do that in 30 minutes. You owe me for the years, not the minutes."
"If I do a job in 30 minutes it’s because I spent 40 years learning how to do that in 30 minutes. You owe me for the years, not the minutes."
Wrench97
Well-known member
I was at the Peterbuilt dealer today $167.50 hourly rate, 1 hour minimum.
And they are hiring looking for 4 techs........................
You have to realize a lot of people are either scared or too lazy to do their own work and will come up with all sorts of reasons to convince themselves and/or you not to do it. Good for you for doing it yourself.
Jim greengo
Well-known member
Ain't America great?
And like somebody else said earlier,that's the box store setting the price.
Not the contractor.
like2wheel
Well-known member
My point is that automotive repair is way underpriced relative to the skill/training required & the equipment needed.
The post i quoted said that HVAC rates shouldn't be much lower than automotive.
Not sure I agree with that.
Hmmm, I am out of service for a bit and can't do anything. So I hired out my lawn mowing. Guy and his helper shows up in a newer Chebby pickup truck towing a trailer with a few thousands dollars worth of equipment in it. I would guess the mower is 8 grand or close to it. $80 month. Boy is he in the wrong business!
danski0224
Well-known member
I might have to get that made up on a shirt.
danski0224
Well-known member
First paragraph should have "underpriced" replaced with "underpaid".
I'll agree with your second paragraph if you are describing "hack and whack" typical light residential or heavy residential (AKA light commercial
) work.Otherwise, a lot of HVAC repair can be pretty technical and computerized.
LeonardY
Well-known member
Brings back a fond memory of a TV repair guy who came to our house when I was a kid.
I was so fascinated, I asked if I could watch him do his repair. My mom said don't ask any questions. Just sit and watch.
After a bit, he started explaining to me what he was doing. Along with a healthy don't you try this warning.
By the end he let me deguass the TV. I messed it up but he showed the correct way and fixed it.
Yep, I always hung out as the repair people did their work. Way better than cartoons on TV. Piano tuner came by regularly, that guy was fun to watch and man could the guy play, make that piano come alive.
C2F
Well-known member
I’m a commercial/industrial tech and I’d say those prices are normal. Markup is apart of the job. In a more urban area the prices will be more. If you want a start capacitor for $30 then go online, buy it and install it yourself. Hvac techs HATE customers that ***** and complain to them. They don’t set the prices. The market does and buddy right now it’s not a customers market. There is a shortage on labor and parts.
Their is a lot of overhead for an hvac company.
Next time call some random hack fly by night that does it in his own.
Their is a lot of overhead for an hvac company.
Next time call some random hack fly by night that does it in his own.
danski0224
Well-known member
Sometimes there is highway robbery... or is it Capitalism?
Just heard of someone through a customer that got soaked for almost $6k on a 2.5 ton coil and condenser replacement...
Or, maybe they waited until it broke, and then had to pay market price? The replacement may be cheaper in January...
Just heard of someone through a customer that got soaked for almost $6k on a 2.5 ton coil and condenser replacement...
Or, maybe they waited until it broke, and then had to pay market price? The replacement may be cheaper in January...
Apparently $240 or less.
Anyone can do the math.
Replacement motors are on Amazon for under $100, an OEM motor can easily be twice that. Labor rated should run around $100-$125 an hour. It might take an hour to do the job. Trip charge is more, a trip to the supply house will add to the bill. if the tech had the motor on the truck, do the math. If they double the price on the motor it is $200, maybe toss in a capacitor for $50 more, plus an hour labor at $125, so $375. Mileage maybe, a trip to the supply house another hour. I have a hard time seeing this bill hitting $500, but some seem to justify it running closer to $700. Like I asked earlier, I would like to see and itemized bill. No matter how I try I can't get to $500 and I ran an profitable HVAC service department.
danski0224
Well-known member
Way less.
The person doing the repair would have been allowed to post updates to social media about the work being done, and the part(s) would have been free to the customer....
rustyjames
Well-known member
A friend of mine just paid $550.00 to have a $15.00 contactor replaced. Took 45 minutes and that was probably milking it. I think the OP got a fair market quote. If you don't like it fix it yourself, or keep getting quotes. Maybe try craigslist to find someone.
Terry D
Well-known member
Maybe in your area, but here some contractors are charging and getting 375.00 to replace a capacitor. I feel gifted for being able to do my own repairs and not have to worry if the price is reasonable or not.