No more snap-on for me
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Indexmill
Well-known member
I have 1 Snap on tool that i bought off of the truck. It is a SOEXM10 10mm combination wrench with the FD+ feature. I own many SO hard handle screwdrivers and a few ratchet screwdrivers but did not buy any of them new. I almost bought the SO flare wrench set but went with SK in the end. That 10mm combination wrench is sweet as sugar; but it cost $40 ******* dollars. Just a fun little story.
I think for the most part, that we all agree on the question. If you want SO, then buy SO for any one of the 10 legitimate reasons described above in this thread. If not, then don't as there are not shitloads of excellent options for a quarter or less of the money of SO. But don't bash those who do decide they want SO. We all spend way too much money on dumb/stupid stuff once in a while; it's ok...
I think for the most part, that we all agree on the question. If you want SO, then buy SO for any one of the 10 legitimate reasons described above in this thread. If not, then don't as there are not shitloads of excellent options for a quarter or less of the money of SO. But don't bash those who do decide they want SO. We all spend way too much money on dumb/stupid stuff once in a while; it's ok...
2ndGearRubber
Well-known member
I was really, really hoping somehow the actual snap on ones they make themselves were actually someone elses. I have the ubiquitous set everybody has:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005MVB6TG/?tag=atomicindus08-20
ZRX61
Well-known member
2ndGearRubber
Well-known member
I think those are sold as bluepoint now. IIRC you can get those from SK too.
OK, lets add some gasoline to this fire:
Snap On makes some tools which make the life much easier doing certain jobs and it helps people who use them routinely. I think that majority of people could have survived without buying brand new Snap On things off the truck. Some of the purchases is just a wish to have good brand which people know and it has nothing to do with financially smart decision
If we all were frugal and thought
- majority would be driving old civics, carollas and mazda 3 cars
- people would be wearing casio $15 watches instead of fancy brands
- you would be wearing your T-shirts till they disintegrated on you
- you would not buy a dryer and would buy a drying rack
- ... you got my point - Mr Money Mustache has a whole blog about being financially smart - wish they taught a lot of these ideas in schools, but them people would be too independent and hard to control as economic slavery would not affect them as much
...Yes, I have some Snap On, MAC, Cornwell, etc
...No, majority were bought used, some restored, derusted, lubricated, etc
...DIY, not professional.
Snap On makes some tools which make the life much easier doing certain jobs and it helps people who use them routinely. I think that majority of people could have survived without buying brand new Snap On things off the truck. Some of the purchases is just a wish to have good brand which people know and it has nothing to do with financially smart decision
If we all were frugal and thought
- majority would be driving old civics, carollas and mazda 3 cars
- people would be wearing casio $15 watches instead of fancy brands
- you would be wearing your T-shirts till they disintegrated on you
- you would not buy a dryer and would buy a drying rack
- ... you got my point - Mr Money Mustache has a whole blog about being financially smart - wish they taught a lot of these ideas in schools, but them people would be too independent and hard to control as economic slavery would not affect them as much
...Yes, I have some Snap On, MAC, Cornwell, etc
...No, majority were bought used, some restored, derusted, lubricated, etc
...DIY, not professional.
My mother-in-law came from a dirt-poor farming family. The came-home-from-school-and-worked-until-bed kind of thing. The parents would send the kids into the woods to forage for food (berries, mushrooms, etc.). She's incredibly frugal and very smart. Everything is a calculation and it dominates her view, because she knows what it's like to be truly poor. It's allowed her to live relatively well on pretty limited money (lost her husband in the 80's). But honestly, she carries it to a degree where she's not having the fun/happiness she could. So I'm not advocating that.
I guess the two things I'm waving my arms about boil down to living beyond your means and being prepared for a rainy day/retirement. But so many things are designed to allow us to live above our means. e.g. "$1200 iPhone? Well that's just $50 a month. No interest!" etc.
I also read all these stories about people in their 20's and 30's saying they can't afford to save for retirement. And I wonder how many of those people have iPhones, high-speed data plans, subscriptions to Amazon and HBO and Netflix and Disney+, cars new enough to be under warranty with a bangin' stereo, and lots of pix of Instagram-worthy food and beverages every week.
I'm not suggesting that people live without any luxuries or nice things - I'm suggesting that a lot of decisions get made because the payment sounds easy enough. Stack 'em all up, and...
Apply that to a new tech starting out - probably 20's, not making much, doesn't have much in the way of tools and you're bringing your own in a lot of cases (most?). "Hell, $50 a week isn't bad and I need those tools to do the work!" Then the $50 becomes $100 or $150 because you're doing more stuff, making more money and well, you need the tools to make the money. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like it's incredibly easy to spend $15K or more in the first couple years on tool-truck tools and a box. Getting a USG box and buying mainly NAPA/Carlyle/HF/Tekton, etc. where you can get quick (Tekton) or same-day (NAPA/HF) warranty, and then buying the unique SO tools as-needed would probably cut that number to $5K or less. And stick the difference away. As you get more experience and more money, you upgrade your tools as you need or want, but getting that start with retirement savings takes a multiple of that money to replace just 10 years later.
Anyway, I'm not smacking SO or anyone who has bought SO, so apologies if that's the way I've come off. And I'll try to shut up on this thread since I've over-done it on my points.
I also like snap-on because it is a known quantity. I know what I’m getting when I pay their price for a tool. With all the foreign tool makers you never know if they decided to off shore said tool to increase profit since the last you tube review came out can we say gearwrench.
WNYflyer
Well-known member
Those are the ones I have also but mine have blue handles and are branded "Imperial" who I believe are the OEM for all the like ones out there, i.e. S-K, K-D, Gearwrench, Snap-On (Blue Point?). Picked mine up off fleabay cheap since most don't know the Imperial brand.These are the ones I have:
ZRX61
Well-known member
ALL?? Countless Brits grew up with Britool just as the French did with Facom etc. Do Koken *offshore* their production from Japan to the US?
mslim
Well-known member
I had some money back in the 80's and was working primarily on my 57 Corvette, Chevy small block vans, Jeep CJ8, and 70 Cutlass. I bought Snappy SAE socket and ratchet sets in 1/4", 3/8" and 1/2". It was a pleasure (and still is) using their tools. I had a nice set of USA Craftsman metrics that was ultimately stolen from me for working on my VW and RX7.
In the early 21st century, I lucked into some good deals (relatively compared to SO) on metric Stahlwille combos, and Facom 1/4" & 3/8" socket sets. Lately though I've been turning to Sunex for impact sockets and an Aircat gun. Truthfully I don't use an air impact all that much. I bought a nice set of Tekton SAE combos to keep on the RV and so far, have been really impressed with them
So it's "run what cha brung" for me and buy what you can afford. I do try to patronize US and US allies as much as possible.
In the early 21st century, I lucked into some good deals (relatively compared to SO) on metric Stahlwille combos, and Facom 1/4" & 3/8" socket sets. Lately though I've been turning to Sunex for impact sockets and an Aircat gun. Truthfully I don't use an air impact all that much. I bought a nice set of Tekton SAE combos to keep on the RV and so far, have been really impressed with them
So it's "run what cha brung" for me and buy what you can afford. I do try to patronize US and US allies as much as possible.
dnschmidt
Well-known member
Christ FED you work in the FBI building. How many tool truck guys want to go into that place? They'll never come out. Most likely off to Guantanamo never to be seen again.
dnschmidt
Well-known member
That's why I win either way. Got SNA stock for the people that have to have it. (THANK YOU VERY MUCH) and a shitload of TOPTUL for myself and my friends who don't have to have it. Life is good.
2ndGearRubber
Well-known member
Leaving the truck unattended.......
While I totally agree with M635_Guy, that large portions of the population overspend and put themselves in precarious situations, I believe the myths of the 15k in truck debt luber goobers are just that. Starting out, in my experience anyways, they couldn't buy off trucks if they wanted to. I bought VERY limited things, as even living at home $25 a week effected my life. You had to save up to go to harbor freight and spend $100, as after taxes $350/week was a good paycheck when I started during the Obama administration. Now, this was 10 years ago just as online presence of quality imports were really spooling up. Lots of the stuff you buy at the local stores still had skipped sizes like 18mm, which was obviously unacceptable. I usually bought harbor freight and home-depot, plus some parts store stuff. Some things like oil-filter claws would be on sale on the trucks for less than the local autozone down the street charged for lisle. Truck tools were at least "known knowns" of quality, and if one couldn't find what you needed at a local store we were all pretty afraid to try other brands in the middle as it was a gamble. I know I couldn't afford SK or Wright at that time, even if it was available. Everyone I knew was still pretty soft on gearwrench even, as the pollution of the cheap ratcheting wrench sets had people worried about socket quality. And no one I knew could gamble that they would spend $50 and get something unusable or tough/impossible to warranty. Obviously things have changed a LOT.
These guys mounting tires and changing oil are grossing $500 max/week, so $25k a year. Even if they're "well paid" at 15/hour that's like 31k/year gross. Most truck guys don't even want to do business with them, as they're so likely to quit or be unable to meet a $20/week payment. IME laziness is the number one driving factor. Tools are a means to an end, lots guys don't care at all about them and buy them begrudgingly. So they're not camping out on GJ in their free time or tracking deals on amazon. They buy the minimum to get buy, they're hourly remember. IME the guys with crippling tool truck debt had several car repos, utilities getting shut off, and sub 400 credit scores because they sucked with money. They did this in all facets of their financial life, and would rack up debt with whoever would extended them credit. They could make 100k/year and be broke before payday every week.
EDIT:
I see this a LOT in these threads. It stops being about the tools, and starts being a seminar on economics and retirement planning. I'm not saying to fill a box with truck brands, or even all SK or Wright. But at a certain point one needs to realize buying more than the absolute bare minimum occurs in a lot of other industries outside tools. And if that's the conversation we want top have, which is worth having BTW, that needs to be understood as being a fundamentally different conversation.
Toptul, gear wrench, SK, Wright, pick a brand.
You can absolutely survive with HF and blue/orange box store tools. If it's about all about $$$, buying anything but the bare minimum in 2021 is a waste for anyone but a well paid professional. Harbor freight fixes many cars.
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FuzzyTiger
Well-known member
I'm not in the industry but don't the tool truck companies specifically go after people new to the industry with the student discounts and loans and whatnot?
Lucid Moments
Well-known member
While the frequency of such occurences are quite probably overstated they aren't a myth. I have a much younger friend that went to a school to be a heavy equipment mechanic and spent quite a bit of money on Snap On tools. I don't know exactly how much because he is not exactly detail oriented, but I can imagine that it was not insignificant even knowing the deals Snap On frequently gives to tech school students. Stayed at it for about a year and decided it wasn't for him. Sold the tools. Then he spent 6 or 7 years as a lineman for Georgia Power, and is now going back to being a heavy equipment tech. Where I am sure he will go into debt on the tool trucks again. He is under 30 and has filed bankruptcy once already. I foresee it happening again before long.
This is an absolutely valid point though. I could get by with a whole lot less than I have. I have two track cars which I need like I need another hole in my head. But life isn't all about need as I am sure we all know well.
2ndGearRubber
Well-known member
Go after? I mean sure, in the same way colleges "go after" high school students to recruit. Or they way the military "goes after" high schoolers. Or banks "go after" people offering personal or secured loans. I think that phrase is accurate, but needs a context to other mildly predatory behaviors other institutions engage in. Young people have less sales resistance in general IMO, thus parents and trusted older people within their lives need to prevent them from going out and signing up for a 28% interest car loan just because they work at walmart and can afford the payment.
I can ONLY speak to my experiences. Student discounts are found only within educational facilities. The kid at the tire shop ain't getting a student discount for being a new hire. Typically included in tuition is a starter set, between 3-5 thousand dollars, including what is essentially a single bay bottom box filled with an assortment of basic tools. Many schools partner with snap on, although I have heard of mac and matco also doing this. The tools the local rosedale tech includes are all bulepoint. There is a snap-on dealer on site once a week, although not the typical franchise truck owner, this person is a direct employee of snap on and is considered the school rep for all of the students. The students typically receive 50% off, plus some promo deals. Go on the tool-truck websites and tell me 50% off is really such a bad deal. Grab some prices of SO/mac/matco/Cornwell, cut them in half, and compare to proto/sk/wright. Remember, these students should already have a 100% equipped basic hand collection and a few pneumatic tools and electrical testing tools.
As far as I am aware, they are not given any better terms for financing anything, unless somehow they are eligible for cosigners. Maybe all truck accounts offer cosigning, I have no idea. If they work part time outside of the school in a shop, which most do, trucks which stop by their employers offer no special pricing or discounts.
IMO, and some here will disagree with me, the biggest and most predatory waste of money is the trade school "educations". I'd rather a kid get a job as a lube tech and drop 30k on the tool trucks over 18 months than spend 30k on a tech school and leave not being able to rack a car or mount tires. That's a whole 'nother discussion.
EDIT: Ideally, I'd have that kid spend 30k over 18months on tekton, sunex, IR, astro pneumatic, etc. LOL
65ranchero
Well-known member
I worked with a guy at a dealer who came from Portugal and he said that all tools were provided for them.
I also had to do some work at a Ford emission test facility in Allen Park, MI and the tech I was working with said all his tools were provided, Tall SO box , a lot of SO hand tools etc. Ford owned them but he could borrow them as needed for home work if needed.
With that in mind , should all carpenters, plumbers, HVAC have all their tools provided by the respective employer?
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65ranchero
Well-known member
Sure they do! It's easy pickens.
They have nothing to start with
Indoctrinate them in the Snap-on lure
2ndGearRubber
Well-known member
Tools supplied by the employer, in my personal experience, are the biggest pieces of **** you can possibly imagine. And the other trades you listed, again in my experience, are hourly. Try being a flat rate or commission employee and finding out your employer doesnt have an 11mm hex socket so you're paid $0/hour while you wait for then to find one or abandon the job.
As ASOG says regularly in their podcasts, the auto industry has subsidized repair costs of customers and business expenses for employers on the backs of their technicians. I might have more invested in tools than my employer, even if you include their lifts and alignment machine. It's at least competitive. Without their lifts included, I blow them out of the ******* water by a factor of 10. They cry like 5k for a new emissions machine is some relevant amount of money.
65ranchero
Well-known member
I can relate totally what you said , the whole system is F-ed you can't in make a living with POS tools they would provide.
It was bad enough with the shop tools being broken, missing "borrowed",
I used to buy my own shop specialty tools so I didn't have to chase them down or fix them.
It was bad enough with the shop tools being broken, missing "borrowed",
I used to buy my own shop specialty tools so I didn't have to chase them down or fix them.
2ndGearRubber
Well-known member
Theyd drop 1000 at harbor freight and never replenish anything ever again. LOL. Imagine waiting your turn for the 14mm wrench.
I cant even comprehend a universe in which a shop would provide something like bearing splitters, pullers, timing tools, cooling system testers, etc. That's just completely foreign to me as a concept. Some places will have a scan tool. That's pretty rare though.
IMO the main issue is the people running the shops, much like members of this forum, are so incredibly ignorant as to what it actually required to fix automobiles they simply dont know what they dont know. 5 point security torx or XZN bits...., people at my place, even the techs, think I'm just buying them for fun and have no clue why they would even be required.
Mikeske
Well-known member
About ten years before I retired from my aircraft manufacturing job in the Seattle area my employer started to provide all the tools for its employees as way to prevent foreign object debris/damage. The tools provided were Snap-on across the entire enterprise. We were all provided toolkits that we were required to inventory twice a day. Some manufacturers do know that we have to build with quality and aircraft is one area that you can’t pull over to the side of the road at 35,000 feet.
I had Bonney tools and they were all taken home and I just used them for home projects and repair of my vehicles.
FuzzyTiger
Well-known member
Interesting. Schools must work differently where you are then. I recall looking into it for a nephew who was considering becoming a automotive technician and the programs here were heavily focused towards on the job training. If I recall correctly its a 4 year apprenticeship with a minimum requirement of 10 months/year working under a certified mechanic + 2 months/year of classroom based training. I can't imagine tuition costs would be anywhere near $30k, probably under $10k which should hopefully get paid/subsidized by their employer.
2ndGearRubber
Well-known member
The great white north seems to have a bit better reputation with their red-seal program. The local rosedale-tech had an instructor straight up tell me they don't have the kids rack cars if they can help it, too much risk of them dropping one. So..... they come into a shop and can't rack a car. They don't have them pulling wheels "because the studs would wear out". The vo-tech programs are even worse, they have the kids all mount a tire once. END OF TIRE INSTRUCTION. Well, employers need them mounting 5+ sets a day minimum. And they can't rack the car. Or use an impact gun, they can barely even hold the thing.
I've been quoted the 30k number by numerous people as the tuition/tooling cost of the 18month program. No employer is paying a cent of that LOL Maybe being in the ****** environment I am, I only see the losers. Perhaps the good ones end up going right to dealers. Like I said I work in well paying, but otherwise really ****** places. Roofs leaking, floors destroyed, racks puking fluid and dropping, etc. Of course, I meet plenty of 20+ year industry veterans who can't wield a test light to check for power and ground. Let alone comprehend voltage drop. Years back I did some diag/inspection work for a friend working at a used car lot. The "diagnostic" stuff I needed to sort out was horrifying. Car has plugs/wires/coil on it and still misfires. Well, 30psi of compression will do that. It's a front cylinder. It was 10minutes to diagnose that and punt it back to the auction; except it cost them paying me, and plugs/wires/coilpack plus the hourly wage of the 30+ year guy who made the original "diagnosis"
Aviation is a bit higher end then my world. We just pay kids 12/hour and call them hacks or lazy when they can't do the work with no tools or training. I guess that's what I try to stress with these long rambling paragraphs - it's the wild west out here. No rules, no regulations, no excuses. It's not hourly work so nobody up the chain gives two shits about equipment or service info or anything. It literally isn't their problem.
rogersmithiii
Well-known member
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I have mixed feelings about Harbor Freight.
I bought a $25 battery charger to charge / float my backhoe. I've been very pleased with it. Opened it up, and aside from a soldered in fuse, I thought the components and build quality was decent.
I also looked at a 3/4 inch ratchet, and found it to be junk.
My HF rolling tool chests have been fine, aside from some gummed up grease on the drawer slides.
I think the admonition that still applies at HF is that some stuff is great, and some stuff is junk.
I bought a $25 battery charger to charge / float my backhoe. I've been very pleased with it. Opened it up, and aside from a soldered in fuse, I thought the components and build quality was decent.
I also looked at a 3/4 inch ratchet, and found it to be junk.
My HF rolling tool chests have been fine, aside from some gummed up grease on the drawer slides.
I think the admonition that still applies at HF is that some stuff is great, and some stuff is junk.
rogersmithiii
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I just replaced wheel studs on my Deere backhoe, and it wasn't the worst job in the world. So if the studs wear out, have the kids replace them.
DemoFly
Well-known member
I'm late to the party but I think Snap On ratchets are A1 and I wouldn't be caught dead using anything else. But you'd be hard pressed to find any other Snap On tool in my box. 'Cause tools are for making money not spending money.
Schooling cost me $500 a level, but I also received a govt fuel stipend plus I used the same books for all 3 years, $600, but they weren't available on PDF when I bought em, catch my drift. That said I didn't attend a pre-apprenticeship program, which I believe covers all your levels of school and includes a work placement where most get hired afterwards for their apprenticeship. I'm in Diesel, but the fundamental structures are the same.
The problem with Canadian school (specifically Ontario for my examples) is the curriculum is spent teaching a lot of outmoded things. Most of the folks I went with were either from Dealership environments or fleets with a lot of newer equipment. Maybe 1-2 people who worked on older broker trucks, Grove cranes with Detroits in em, etc. There was great hue and cry about learning mechanical injection and HEUI systems when all anyone had touched in practice was common rail. Profs acknowledged this too, said there's a big push for an updated curriculum but nothing to get them there. Practical assignments from memory included disassembling/reassembling engines, 18 speed Eatons, Allison 1000's, voltage drop testing on stand engines, to name some examples.
To keep this relevant, the Snap On Industrial rep offered 50% off hardline an order per session of school. Boxes/carts were limited in range (Heritage/Classic, no Masters or Epiq) and I believe topped out around 30%. No financing options either! Credit Card or certified money order only. I duplicated a decent amount of my hard line with some admitted frivolity. Folks in my class thought I was nuts for even putting in an order. Hell, my old journeyman uses a stamped rail of mixed brand 3/8" impact and chrome sockets, only truck brand socket was a Mac 5/16" pipe plug socket for Rockwell slacks. He'd laugh in my face at what I've spent to do the same basic work.
I guess Snap On prices aren’t much different than other name brands like Yeti, Carhartt, Nike, Rolex or whatever. Yes the product is nice but you’re also paying for brand recognition. A $164 ratchet is a better value than a $164 pair of shoes or jacket. The ratchet should last a few lifetimes before it’s worn out.
Bockscar
Well-known member
SK has rebuild kits for 70 year old ratchets....just saying
Better buy'm now
As a middle class DYI'r, get those starting out on budget and respect those who cannot afford or justify paying for Snapon brand since that is the brand called out.
When I can do a job(brake job, auto repair, or home repair) myself, the labor I've saved can be substantial. Enjoy buying and owning high quality USA made hand tools vs. paying someone else to do what I can do myself.
I make the repair and build-up additional high quality hand tools over time. There is something to be said about holding, using & owning high quality made USA hand tools. Full disclosure my toothbrush is made in china and I do throw them away, often.
As a very wealthy client once said, don't forget about the 'power of the zero'. That is power of one's financial net worth and the number of extra 0's attached.
If someone views SnapOn or any tool @ $100 not justified, another individual having 1 more 0 on the end of their net worth might view that $100 tool as a simple $10 purchase. To someone who's net worth is 100K and making 5 years of payments on a $40,000 new truck purchase, it is an easy $4,000 truck purchase for someone else.
Someone saved a ton on harbor freight and someone else takes pride in owning premium USA manufactured products.
Both persons feel like they got the better value.
When I can do a job(brake job, auto repair, or home repair) myself, the labor I've saved can be substantial. Enjoy buying and owning high quality USA made hand tools vs. paying someone else to do what I can do myself.
I make the repair and build-up additional high quality hand tools over time. There is something to be said about holding, using & owning high quality made USA hand tools. Full disclosure my toothbrush is made in china and I do throw them away, often.
As a very wealthy client once said, don't forget about the 'power of the zero'. That is power of one's financial net worth and the number of extra 0's attached.
If someone views SnapOn or any tool @ $100 not justified, another individual having 1 more 0 on the end of their net worth might view that $100 tool as a simple $10 purchase. To someone who's net worth is 100K and making 5 years of payments on a $40,000 new truck purchase, it is an easy $4,000 truck purchase for someone else.
Someone saved a ton on harbor freight and someone else takes pride in owning premium USA manufactured products.
Both persons feel like they got the better value.
You can buy a Williams ratchet for 30 bucks that uses the exact same internal components as Snap On. Your paying for the service. And there's nothing wrong with that. If the service is important enough to you to pay an extra 100 dollars for, then it is and you should pay it. I do question how it can be justified when you can just keep a spare ratchet around. But that's not to say it's not for someone. If it is, but it. If not, but the cheaper one, or two of them.
getbentMUSTARD
Well-known member
Yes, but an outdated 36 tooth design versus the new dual 80's 80 tooth design. I'm not bashing as I own a fair bit of Williams wrenches but almost none of it is like for like. I have their sockets too and while great they can be hard to read and I love the wrenches but some complain they're too bulky and again that's fine as people can prefer whatever it is they want to. The only truly like for like item with Williams I believe is the hard handle screw drivers and sockets minus the markings and some claiming the heat treat may be different.
2ndGearRubber
Well-known member
"The same components snap on used 25 years ago, and no longer uses". You can't walk onto a truck and buy a 936. LOL
I'm sure they're still fine ratchets; although I have never handled one. Williams makes a quality product.
how true this is.
Davegvg
Well-known member
I switched over to Facom and Koken decades ago, never looked back. Tons of great stuff out there.
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