No more snap-on for me

[shawhite]

I switched over to Facom and Koken decades ago, never looked back. Tons of great stuff out there.

Koken prices are close to snap-on in the US and they just recently released a 72 tooth ratchet until then it was a 36 tooth design. Seems like snap-on is the better deal in that instance. Facom tools was purchased by Stanley back in 2005.

 

[CR888]

Haven't been here for a good while but it's great to see things haven't changed, you can always find a good ol let's bash Snap On thread. Well sure I'd hardly have any tools if everything I bought was Snap On but for those using specific tools multiple times a day it makes sense to invest in the best. Most people who start these threads were never in the market to buy Snap On in the first place. It's about validation for there collection of Harbour Freight tools from Asia and making them feel ok about not supporting US manufacturing. It OK that's the free market, the great thing about the free world is your allowed to support whatever foreign country, even enemies of the US, your free to do as YOU choose. Personally I'd like to see more USA made tools in folks boxes.

 

[1foxracing]

Koken prices are close to snap-on in the US

Snap-on 110RTSMA $180 direct from Snap-on

Snap-on Store

shop.snapon.com

Koken RS2400MZ/12 $80.42 from Koken USA

Koken Z-Series RS2400MZ/12 | 1/4" Sq. Dr. Socket Set, (12 Pcs) on Magnetic Rail

We Specialize in Torque, Assembly and Production Tools for Aerospace, Medical, Defense, and General Manufacturing.

palmac.net

So $100 more for 2 less sockets is about the same price?

 

[shawhite]

Lol yeah let’s take the socket set that is on sale currently and compare it to snap-on full retail price. I’m not paying retail off the truck. Not to mention you are comparing a low profile socket set to the Koken shallow sockets.

 

[zendriver]

Haven't been here for a good while but it's great to see things haven't changed, you can always find a good ol let's bash Snap On thread. Well sure I'd hardly have any tools if everything I bought was Snap On but for those using specific tools multiple times a day it makes sense to invest in the best. Most people who start these threads were never in the market to buy Snap On in the first place. It's about validation for there collection of Harbour Freight tools from Asia and making them feel ok about not supporting US manufacturing. It OK that's the free market, the great thing about the free world is your allowed to support whatever foreign country, even enemies of the US, your free to do as YOU choose. Personally I'd like to see more USA made tools in folks boxes.

True some things never change including your bashing of Harbor freight, which with exception of toolboxes, almost had no mention in this thread.

most seemed about other American companies selling their tool products at better value.

Maybe it was always true, but it seems nowadays when it comes to snap on tools maybe the old Adage is true

“if you have to ask the price………”

 

[1foxracing]

Lol yeah let’s take the socket set that is on sale currently and compare it to snap-on full retail price. I’m not paying retail off the truck. Not to mention you are comparing a low profile socket set to the Koken shallow sockets.

Regular price is $104.44 so they are only $75 cheaper then then Snapons that include 2 less sockets.
https://kokenusa.com/koken-z-series-rs2400mz-12-1-4-sq-dr-socket-set-12-pcs-on-magnetic-rail/
The 2 sets are comparable as well, the listed Koken are Z series, they are lower profile then Snapons.
Unless you're paying cash I've never met a Snapon dealer who didn't charge full retail.

 

[Davegvg]

Seems like you guys all know each other.

As a guy that runs a 200 person electronics company in Grass Valley Ca, American made is closer to my heart than most.

We are the " snap-on" or "Apple" "Rolls Royce" in our industry.

When my service, product, or innovation to my clients doesn't match my almost always higher price I lose customers or at min don't gain new ones.

Happy to pay for a quality tool packaged well if in kit form, and will pay more for a US brand and won't gripe as long as I get the service and price my volume deserves.

When that gets out of whack I look around, just like my own clients.

 

[putergod]

I wonder how many of your guys feel you are over paid at your day job? Labor is not cheap in America especially quality trained labor. How man hours do you suppose goes into those tools you deem too expensive?

The process of die forging isn't really that different from forge to forge, so the man hours aren't really that different either.
However, I do agree a quality tool that will last is far more valuable than a cheap asian made tool that is a gamble of reliability every time it gets used.
But I also agree with the Snap-On tax being asinine. There's several high quality American Forged tool makes in the US that cost FAR less than Snap-On. Snap-On is just plain greedy, and they get away with it successfully due to name recognition.

SK, Wright, and Proto are all cheaper, and in some cases MUCH cheaper, than Snap-On, and all make most (in some cases, all) of their tools in the US using the same type of die forging processes that Snap-On uses. And being that the every single hand tool I have ever broken (that were not taken 100 times beyond their design parameters) were all made in Taiwan or China, I would dare say are JUST as good quality as Snap-On.

 

[dstblj52]

The process of die forging isn't really that different from forge to forge, so the man hours aren't really that different either.
However, I do agree a quality tool that will last is far more valuable than a cheap asian made tool that is a gamble of reliability every time it gets used.
But I also agree with the Snap-On tax being asinine. There's several high quality American Forged tool makes in the US that cost FAR less than Snap-On. Snap-On is just plain greedy, and they get away with it successfully due to name recognition.

SK, Wright, and Proto are all cheaper, and in some cases MUCH cheaper, than Snap-On, and all make most (in some cases, all) of their tools in the US using the same type of die forging processes that Snap-On uses. And being that the every single hand tool I have ever broken (that were not taken 100 times beyond their design parameters) were all made in Taiwan or China, I would dare say are JUST as good quality as Snap-On.

with snap on your paying for the truck service, if you dont have a truck except for a few items imho the value is not their. Just like how proto and mac often have wildly different pricing

 

[shawhite]

Regular price is $104.44 so they are only $75 cheaper then then Snapons that include 2 less sockets.
https://kokenusa.com/koken-z-series-rs2400mz-12-1-4-sq-dr-socket-set-12-pcs-on-magnetic-rail/
The 2 sets are comparable as well, the listed Koken are Z series, they are lower profile then Snapons.
Unless you're paying cash I've never met a Snapon dealer who didn't charge full retail.

Absolutely I pay cash. In my experience that difference is more like $30. I will gladly pay an extra $30 to keep my fellow Americans employed and feeding their family. I’m not knocking Koken by any means they are fine tools. It makes me no difference what you use to turn nuts and bolts.

 

[mr.lemons]

Getting discount for paying cash on trucks comes up a lot here. Why would you get discount for cash on new tools that presumably all go through the books with Snap on? My understanding is that 'discount for cash' is normally for services or off-the-book sales that the tax man doesn't need to hear about.

I get it on used tools, or off brand tools that the driver may have acquired unofficially, but I would guess that Snap on tracks all Snap on tool sales made on trucks.

What am I missing? How does a truck seller benefit from getting cash for sales?

 

[CS454]

Getting discount for paying cash on trucks comes up a lot here. Why would you get discount for cash on new tools that presumably all go through the books with Snap on? My understanding is that 'discount for cash' is normally for services or off-the-book sales that the tax man doesn't need to hear about.

I get it on used tools, or off brand tools that the driver may have acquired unofficially, but I would guess that Snap on tracks all Snap on tool sales made on trucks.

What am I missing? How does a truck seller benefit from getting cash for sales?

Nobody here will do cash deals anymore. Saves you the tax, that's about it.

 

[JeepYJ]

Getting discount for paying cash on trucks comes up a lot here. Why would you get discount for cash on new tools that presumably all go through the books with Snap on? My understanding is that 'discount for cash' is normally for services or off-the-book sales that the tax man doesn't need to hear about.

I get it on used tools, or off brand tools that the driver may have acquired unofficially, but I would guess that Snap on tracks all Snap on tool sales made on trucks.

What am I missing? How does a truck seller benefit from getting cash for sales?

I’m not sure exactly how it works but if the driver owns all of his inventory he could sell it for whatever price he wants. If you’re handing him cash it’s not traceable for Uncle Sam. And he’s not paying card processing fees or chasing you down for payments every payday.

 

[Dave455]

Getting discount for paying cash on trucks comes up a lot here. Why would you get discount for cash on new tools that presumably all go through the books with Snap on? My understanding is that 'discount for cash' is normally for services or off-the-book sales that the tax man doesn't need to hear about.

I get it on used tools, or off brand tools that the driver may have acquired unofficially, but I would guess that Snap on tracks all Snap on tool sales made on trucks.

What am I missing? How does a truck seller benefit from getting cash for sales?

I think it’s all to do with Snap On’s business model. What you don’t realise, if you’re a cash buyer, is that the majority of Snap On customer’s are buying tools on credit. It’s a lot of work for the dealer, and he has to visit every week or every fortnight to get the payment.

Guys who just turn up and buy stuff cash (or card, or whatever) are the easiest to deal with, especially if they are regular, and especially if they aren’t taking the Mick on warranty claims all the time.

I definitely got preferential treatment from my dealer, especially as I had a couple of friends without dealers, so if there was a decent “special” on, I would often take two or three of something.

Sadly though, this is all past tense. Haven’t bought anything Snap On in two years. Wish it were different, it’s not just branding, the “hard line” tools are are about the best out there, but the price hikes make it unviable now.

 

[Lucid Moments]

I think it’s all to do with Snap On’s business model. What you don’t realise, if you’re a cash buyer, is that the majority of Snap On customer’s are buying tools on credit. It’s a lot of work for the dealer, and he has to visit every week or every fortnight to get the payment.

Guys who just turn up and buy stuff cash (or card, or whatever) are the easiest to deal with, especially if they are regular, and especially if they aren’t taking the Mick on warranty claims all the time.

I definitely got preferential treatment from my dealer, especially as I had a couple of friends without dealers, so if there was a decent “special” on, I would often take two or three of something.

Sadly though, this is all past tense. Haven’t bought anything Snap On in two years. Wish it were different, it’s not just branding, the “hard line” tools are are about the best out there, but the price hikes make it unviable now.

Yep, all about making an easier sale that the dealer doesn't have to keep coming back on. Doesn't have anything to do with the taxman. Inventory like that is too easy for the taxman to track if he gets suspicious. Snap-On corporate will have an invoice of selling to the dealer and I bet the dealer has a good inventory of what he has on the truck.

 

[JeepYJ]

Yep, all about making an easier sale that the dealer doesn't have to keep coming back on. Doesn't have anything to do with the taxman. Inventory like that is too easy for the taxman to track if he gets suspicious. Snap-On corporate will have an invoice of selling to the dealer and I bet the dealer has a good inventory of what he has on the truck.

They may skim some cash off the top and still mark the items as sold. Plenty of small businesses prefer cash for a reason.

 

[Lucid Moments]

They may skim some cash off the top and still mark the items as sold. Plenty of small businesses prefer cash for a reason.

Anything is possible. And you may be right, they may report it sold for X minus when you handed them X in cash. But I wonder at the risk vs reward on that kind of thing.

 

[merkyworks]

Paying by credit card means Retailer has to pay a processing fee. Paying cash allows Retailer to keep a few more margin points that would be lost to processing fees, which is why cash might carry a slight discoun.

 

[Mr_B]

^
Most retaillers these days find cash has it's own processing fees, time dealing with it and storing it securely and most banks charge companies some fees on cash processing .

 

[Ton ton]

My snap on man charges a fair price for his hand tools. But his inventory is on slim side. I pay with a check most of the time.

 

[tarbellb]

I guess everyone’s experience differs but I have never been denied a warranty from snap-on CS or a driver whether it was mine or a random driver I ran across. Sure drivers want dealerships because there are more techs there so more potential to make sales but my old driver will meet me anywhere. It’s all about relationships. Not sure why warranty with your driver is a week out if I break something my driver usually has it on his truck for same day repair or replacement sure there is always an oddball situation but those are uncommon in my experience. I personally buy American products whenever possible because I want my fellow Americans making a good wage to support their family instead of slaving away at Amazon delivering all your foreign goods for peanuts. I think Americans have gotten too comfortable with the current cheap disposable society.

Lets not forget "It’s all about relationships" to get the elusive special deals or inner circle pricing

Otherwise it would just be expensive, or downright ridiculous to pay those prices

 

[autobon7]

I'm sure no one cares but I'm sure many here have the same sentiment. I bought my last $164 1/4" ratchet. I don't see the value anymore. Maybe after covid prices will come down. I can't get 2 items lately without a $300 invoice. Unless it's so crazy exclusive and I absolutely have to have it (blue point vises for example) I'll prob get it in Hazet or Facom flavor. As for air I've been doing CP. And for electric I'm filling out my Makita and IR collection.

I have not been disappointed by a Facom purchase ever…….in the 35 years I’ve been buying that brand. Bought mostly off eBay, Ultimate Garage, Epstein, and classifieds here. Many items bought for a fraction of the price you’d pay for a Snappy equivalent.

 

[shawhite]

Lets not forget "It’s all about relationships" to get the elusive special deals or inner circle pricing

Otherwise it would just be expensive, or downright ridiculous to pay those prices

Almost sounds like you are mad or jealous that I have a great driver that extends me good prices and remarkable service. Business is about relationships the more successful you become the more you will find out how true this is.

 

[zendriver]

I’m not sure exactly how it works but if the driver owns all of his inventory he could sell it for whatever price he wants. If you’re handing him cash it’s not traceable for Uncle Sam. And he’s not paying card processing fees or chasing you down for payments every payday.

Probably like any other business.

The driver is trying to make a living, so he/she likes to get the most money as possible on every sale.

That said, they realize that although they probably make more money on items that someone just puts on the charge account, there will be others who want a "cash discount".

It's less money, but it's money.

Since there likely is a "paper trail" on most of their inventory, chances are good, they are not necessarily "pocketing" the cash, although it certainly can happen.

 

[Dakotadadv8]

I think it’s all to do with Snap On’s business model. What you don’t realise, if you’re a cash buyer, is that the majority of Snap On customer’s are buying tools on credit. It’s a lot of work for the dealer, and he has to visit every week or every fortnight to get the payment.

Guys who just turn up and buy stuff cash (or card, or whatever) are the easiest to deal with, especially if they are regular, and especially if they aren’t taking the Mick on warranty claims all the time.

I definitely got preferential treatment from my dealer, especially as I had a couple of friends without dealers, so if there was a decent “special” on, I would often take two or three of something.

Sadly though, this is all past tense. Haven’t bought anything Snap On in two years. Wish it were different, it’s not just branding, the “hard line” tools are are about the best out there, but the price hikes make it unviable now.

I believe SO customer base are professionals, not DIYer like myself. I can buy less expensive tools knowing full well they are less quality but can complete DIY projects, HF, CM, Husky, etc. I am DIYer and choose to buy SO tools and willing to spend more for quality hand tools.

 

[Dakotadadv8]

with snap on your paying for the truck service, if you dont have a truck except for a few items imho the value is not their. Just like how proto and mac often have wildly different pricing

For a DIYer I pay for quality, warranty and services are secondary. I don’t abuse tools right tool for the job.

 

[Mgdoug3]

I really like Snap-on tools but I mainly stick to ratchets and torque wrenches. I do have a few 12 point line wrenches my great uncle gave me that are handy when working on injector lines.

I wouldn't mind buying more Snap-on but price is a factor. I usually buy SK because they're more affordable and still made in the USA. Wright is another company I'm considering depending on the direction SK goes.

I more or less buy Snap-on when I want to treat myself. I'm not a full time pro but I do work on tractors, farm equipment and do machining and welding. I plan on buying a hard handle Snap-on ratchet soon. My soft handle can get messy working on dirty and greasy equipment.

 

[bsaint]

I have not been disappointed by a Facom purchase ever…….in the 35 years I’ve been buying that brand. Bought mostly off eBay, Ultimate Garage, Epstein, and classifieds here. Many items bought for a fraction of the price you’d pay for a Snappy equivalent.

I have a new pair of wire cutters coming as we speak to replace a pair of Klein with a worn out rivet

 

[dstblj52]

it doesnt get near enough play here but napa has rebranded a decent chunk of lang stuff as carlyle which is honestly for the professional at a shop which deals with napa near tool truck service at a fraction of the price

 

[2ndGearRubber]

I have a new pair of wire cutters coming as we speak to replace a pair of Klein with a worn out rivet

And the cycle continues.

it doesnt get near enough play here but napa has rebranded a decent chunk of lang stuff as carlyle which is honestly for the professional at a shop which deals with napa near tool truck service at a fraction of the price

Never understood the carlyle hype. I have a set of SAE wrenches with dents and wear in them from simply using them to remove bolts. They didn't impress me at all. But, they're SAE, and most of the time I'm using Proto anyways.

 

[tarbellb]

Almost sounds like you are mad or jealous that I have a great driver that extends me good prices and remarkable service. Business is about relationships the more successful you become the more you will find out how true this is.

OMG so jealous

How long did you shell out full price before you became "friends"

 

[shawhite]

OMG so jealous

How long did you shell out full price before you became "friends"

Lol I guess it was after the 4th time he took me to a ball game and we have been best buds ever since. Honestly it’s all relative what you think is expensive I may think is a fair price. If you don’t want to buy snap-on don’t I personally like the service and quality I get from snap-on and it’s a plus for me to keep my money in the US.

 

[dstblj52]

And the cycle continues.



Never understood the carlyle hype. I have a set of SAE wrenches with dents and wear in them from simply using them to remove bolts. They didn't impress me at all. But, they're SAE, and most of the time I'm using Proto anyways.

I agree on their mainline stuff it's just high end Taiwan most of which can be bought cheaper at harbor fright but Lang stuff is legit and it's a cheap source with a good warranty for it

 

[2ndGearRubber]

I agree on their mainline stuff it's just high end Taiwan most of which can be bought cheaper at harbor fright but Lang stuff is legit and it's a cheap source with a good warranty for it

Lang gets overlooked by a lot of people. VIM, CTA, lots of brands flying mostly under the radar.

 

[nezzman]

I picked up a set of Hazet 600n wrenches, 7-22, skipping 20, along with 24 and 27 for £145! The RRP in the UK is close to £300 for these!
I only have a few snap on bits, which where picked up on eBay at steal prices. I would never pay new prices for them.

 

[putergod]

Lol I guess it was after the 4th time he took me to a ball game and we have been best buds ever since. Honestly it’s all relative what you think is expensive I may think is a fair price. If you don’t want to buy snap-on don’t I personally like the service and quality I get from snap-on and it’s a plus for me to keep my money in the US.

Proto tools are mostly made in the US, like Snap-On.

Just this weekend I was comparing some Proto impact sockets to Snap-on. I was seeing Snap-On charging like $50 for a socket that I can get a Proto from Zoro for $16. I saw this trend continue as I dug deeper.

Now when you expand that out across an entire tool collection, you could have $100,000 or more invested in Snap-On tools, or $30k invested in the same collection by Proto. What are you getting for that extra $70k? A truck that comes by,

 

[DAustin]

In some ways it's like why buy a Mercedes-Benz when you can buy a KIA. They both get the job done ,it's all about what you want and how much your are willing to pay. Also what makes you happiest.

 

[shawhite]

Proto tools are mostly made in the US, like Snap-On.

Just this weekend I was comparing some Proto impact sockets to Snap-on. I was seeing Snap-On charging like $50 for a socket that I can get a Proto from Zoro for $16. I saw this trend continue as I dug deeper.

No when you expand that out across an entire tool collection, you could have $100,000 or more invested in Snap-On tools, or $30k invested in the same collection by Proto. What are you getting for that extra $70k? A truck that comes by,

Proto=Williams and you could probably include Wright in there. I’m sure if you compare apples to apples they will be a lot closer. Who buys there sockets in individuals most people buy sets then fill in a few here or there in individual so your $100,000 example doesn’t hold water. Snap-on runs BogoS from time to time on the truck for impacts. Like buy metric get sae free. If you like proto buy proto I didn’t tell anyone they have to buy snap-on. But you get more than just truck service but if you used snap-on tools you would know this.

 

[putergod]

Proto=Williams and you could probably exclude Wright in there. I’m sure if you compare apples to apples they will be a lot closer. Who buys there sockets in individuals most people buy sets then fill in a few here or there in individual so your $100,000 example doesn’t hold water. Snap-on runs BogoS from time to time on the truck for impacts. Like buy metric get sae free. If you like proto buy proto I didn’t tell anyone they have to buy snap-on. But you get more than just truck service but if you used snap-on tools you would know this.

Proto absolutely does NOT = Williams. Well over half of Williams is Taiwanese. Well over 90% of Proto is US, about the same as Snap-On. I will put any of my Proto tools up against Snap-On any day of the week and twice on Sunday. I have several Snap-On tools, and while nice, they aren't anything special beyond the other US makes (I have a lot of different US makes).

What appears to be Snap-On's largest set is approximately 867 pieces for roughly $49k, which is far from a COMPLETE set that senior level professional mechanics would have - hence why they are always buying more tools.
Add-on sets in the $4k-$20k range
$100k for a complete professional mechanics set is VERY plausible, if maybe slightly high.

Meanwhile, the largest kit Proto sells is the 1258 piece Master Technician set at roughly $16k
Add-on sets in the $1k-$9k range
$30k for a complete professional mechanics set is VERY plausible

Granted, the Snappy set comes with a 54" top and bottom tool chests and the Proto doesn't, so add another $3k for a 55" top and bottom Proto chest set.
And with the Proto set, you're already starting out with enough extra tools to cover another $7-$10k Snappy add-on set.

Now, don't misunderstand. I don't hate Snap-On. I literally just ordered a couple Snap-On ratchets last week (should arrive today) and have several other Snap-On tools. But the fact they are very over-priced cannot be disputed. And SOME of Snap-On tools I do prefer, like ratchets (I do like the design of their chrome handle ratchets over the Proto design), but other tools, I'd rather something else, also Made in US.

 

[putergod]

In some ways it's like why buy a Mercedes-Benz when you can buy a KIA. They both get the job done ,it's all about what you want and how much your are willing to pay. Also what makes you happiest.

A better analogy is buying a Toyota over a Lexus. Exact same car, but one is much cheaper.