Crappy tools / tool steel from India

[VolvoRyan]

Ultimately, all this stuff is consumer driven. Most Americans want cheap **** (or ****, cheap?). The market obliges and the race to the bottom begins. If you can get Homeowner Joe a screwdriver for less than the other guy, you got the sale. The fact that Homeowner Joe will get a lifetime out of that screwdriver kinda illustrates how messed up things really are. Most Americans don't use tools much anymore, especially now that we've fully devolved into a throw away society.

-Ryan

 

[JeepYJ]

People in China, India, Taiwan, etc will work harder than Americans will for less money, less benefits and still be happy doing so. Many probably wont want to hear this but its the truth.

You really think slave laborers in China are happy making cheap junk to export?
They can work for less money because their cost of living and standard of living are below the West. As China has modernized they are becoming more expensive for labor and now India is becoming a larger manufacturer of exports.

 

[qqzj]

There are many countries with lower cost of living and standard of living than China? Why couldn't they replace China? In general, countries from Far East have better work ethics.

 

[dstblj52]

There are many countries with lower cost of living and standard of living than China? Why couldn't they replace China? In general, countries from Far East have better work ethics.

they often are, lots of places in asia and Africa are taking the bottom of the value chain from china and are starting to climb it, making the cheapest of the cheap, stuff just like china started by doing

 

[DSS]

Id say its because they are trying to cut production costs as much as possible and when you do that, often quality goes out the window.
Personally, I think its pretty silly to say, "I refuse to buy tools from country X" because theres good and bad tools from everywhere.
Ive used some newer Chinese and Taiwanese tools that would put the old made in the USA Craftsman tools to shame and Ive had some Chinese and Taiwanese tools that werent great. A couple years ago I had a little Crescent socket set that I rounded off the sockets in less than 6 months of occasional use. India or China could make the best tools in the world if they wanted to but they are trying to make tools that are cheap because thats what Americans want. The American way is cheaper and faster = better. Thats why all of these companies have outsourced to other countries. People in China, India, Taiwan, etc will work harder than Americans will for less money, less benefits and still be happy doing so. Many probably wont want to hear this but its the truth.

He ain't wrong.

 

[Geezer]

.

 

[qqzj]

they often are, lots of places in asia and Africa are taking the bottom of the value chain from china and are starting to climb it, making the cheapest of the cheap, stuff just like china started by doing

How about Mexico? It used to be a richer country than China, why hasn't it made much progress in the recent decades? In fact, their wealth actually went down. Also Argentina, it used to be a pretty rich country, now it's in a forever recession. All those east Europe countries were used to be richer. Heck, Philippines and Malaysia used to be richer as well.

 

[MushCreek]

As for China- I had a friend that worked over there for a few months designing plastic injection molds. He said that they could built stuff just as good as anywhere else, but you pay for it. 'Muricans want cheap, they get cheap.

As for India- a large company I worked for got the bright idea of having their very intricate precision molds built in India. They didn't farm the work out; they built an entire factory in southwestern India. They built the building and brought in millions in high-end, state-of-the-art machine tools. The only flaw in the plan was that no one did any research to see if there was a labor pool. It turned out that a 'machinist' was someone who assembled machinery. After several years and countless dollars they gave up and closed the place. You can't train someone to be an effective toolmaker in a couple years. That was 35 years ago. I'm sure that you can get good work done in India, but like China, it will come at a cost.

Most countries have a history of making cheap stuff. Originally, Swiss watches were cheap and poorly made. Somewhere along the line, they changed their business model to make the best mechanical watches in the world. Cuckoo clocks from Germany are almost all really cheap pieces of ****. Japan was synonymous with 'junk' until we taught them about quality control, and they've been beating us ever since.

 

[Geezer]

As for China- I had a friend that worked over there for a few months designing plastic injection molds. He said that they could built stuff just as good as anywhere else, but you pay for it. 'Muricans want cheap, they get cheap.

As for India- a large company I worked for got the bright idea of having their very intricate precision molds built in India. They didn't farm the work out; they built an entire factory in southwestern India. They built the building and brought in millions in high-end, state-of-the-art machine tools. The only flaw in the plan was that no one did any research to see if there was a labor pool. It turned out that a 'machinist' was someone who assembled machinery. After several years and countless dollars they gave up and closed the place. You can't train someone to be an effective toolmaker in a couple years. That was 35 years ago. I'm sure that you can get good work done in India, but like China, it will come at a cost.

Most countries have a history of making cheap stuff. Originally, Swiss watches were cheap and poorly made. Somewhere along the line, they changed their business model to make the best mechanical watches in the world. Cuckoo clocks from Germany are almost all really cheap pieces of ****. Japan was synonymous with 'junk' until we taught them about quality control, and they've been beating us ever since.

I remember in the 60s any handtool that had made in japan on it was bad,open end wrench would spread open easily,even the gripping teeth on wire pliers would grind down fast. Our grocery store had a big bin of those cheap tools.I had a hammer that the nose broke off lol

 

[neophyte]

The steel ore that was used to make “Damascus” steel supposedly ran out.
The steel was supposedly made in small sealed crucibles, producing a higher quality steel, but the iron ore used may have also had a small amount of other “impurities” like chromium, in just the right tolerance proportions, to produce the “Damascus” steel.
When this alloy that was produced was worked using certain techniques, the famous cutting, and flexibility, could be achieved.
There’s a theory, I think based on testing old steel samples, that the natural iron sand ran out, meaning no more “Damascus” steel.
Britain was also heavily involved in metallurgy and constantly improving British steel and iron manufacturing techniques(along with other parts of Europe), and since the British East India Company and later the British government were controlling India, it’s possible they introduced “more efficient” means of steel production to India, which may have increased steel output, but which also led to the loss of the local manufacturing techniques which produced the “Damascus” steel alloy, since the Indian crucible technique only produced smaller steel ingots.

 

[Downwindtracker 2]

We see a number of Indian imports around here. I have Groz drill press vise I'm pleased with. It's made in India. But it cost more than the run of the mill drill press vises.

 

[visionguru]

....So i wonder how and why it has come to this that India makes such crappy tools today ...

It's the economy, my friend. It's not that India can't make great tools, but the reality is: India is contracted to make the crappy cheap tools.

Recently, I'm into wood work (to repair my patio doors). I found that almost ALL the bench planes in Home Depot and Harbor Freight are made in India, very bad visual quality. I got one by Irwin, still made in India, but at least has real brass adjusters instead of yellow-ish plating that already starts chipping on the shelves. The plane was barely useable.

Most cheap box wrenches are made in India now. In comparison, Chinese wrenches look so much better.

Again, it's the economy. Blame the brands for chasing $0.01 saved at the cost of quality.

 

[MushCreek]

Look at it another way- If there were a great-looking ratchet made in India, but it was $100, would you buy it?

 

[DAustin]

If they had over 75 years of doing quality products- maybe.

 

[Geezer]

Look at it another way- If there were a great-looking ratchet made in India, but it was $100, would you buy it?

I wouldn't give $100 for an American made best built ratchet inthe world because it would never be built as well as they were professed to be built anyway. No matter where they build

 

[justintendo]

People like to ridicule Chinese made Craftsman tools. However, there are obviously many levels of Chinese wrenches in Sears. The lowest is the raised-panel ones. Next is the short crab claws. Then the best is the long-pattern wrenches. Those are made very well and the shape is beautiful. But they are quite a bit more expensive than the other two types. So Sears rarely promoted them and there are less to be found now. I have no evidence how they really compare to other American tools. They work fine for me and are pleasant in appearance. That is all I know. I got a bunch of them just before Sears bit the dust.

china on left, generally an undesirable profile compared to 90s us cman..

 

[Geezer]

china on left, generally an undesirable profile compared to 90s us cman..

The way a wrench grips bolt is important,the wrench on the left is ****.Snap on wrenches are known for their good function very much so. Course there will be a pack on this here forum that know I'm full of sheit.

 

[Legion Prime]

Ultimately, all this stuff is consumer driven. Most Americans want cheap **** (or ****, cheap?). The market obliges and the race to the bottom begins. If you can get Homeowner Joe a screwdriver for less than the other guy, you got the sale. The fact that Homeowner Joe will get a lifetime out of that screwdriver kinda illustrates how messed up things really are. Most Americans don't use tools much anymore, especially now that we've fully devolved into a throw away society.

-Ryan

Unfortunately it's far far more complex than that. But rather then typing for an hour and a half I'll take the easy way out and let someone far more reputable than I do the heavy lifting on this one.
Basic Economics - Thomas Sowell Audible Audio Edition

 

[Rural53]

The steel ore that was used to make “Damascus” steel supposedly ran out.
The steel was supposedly made in small sealed crucibles, producing a higher quality steel, but the iron ore used may have also had a small amount of other “impurities” like chromium, in just the right tolerance proportions, to produce the “Damascus” steel.
When this alloy that was produced was worked using certain techniques, the famous cutting, and flexibility, could be achieved.
There’s a theory, I think based on testing old steel samples, that the natural iron sand ran out, meaning no more “Damascus” steel.
Britain was also heavily involved in metallurgy and constantly improving British steel and iron manufacturing techniques(along with other parts of Europe), and since the British East India Company and later the British government were controlling India, it’s possible they introduced “more efficient” means of steel production to India, which may have increased steel output, but which also led to the loss of the local manufacturing techniques which produced the “Damascus” steel alloy, since the Indian crucible technique only produced smaller steel ingots.

The British generally didn't produce steel or have heavy industry in India. They had a protectionist policy and used India as a market for their factories at "Home".

 

[Geezer]

There are some good tools out there.Pay the price or don't.Who should really worry if some third world country or the Cheap Chinese Communists want to build cheap quality tools? Just pay for and use the good stuff. Problem solved.The issues it seems is folks think everybody should build top quality tools and sell it to them for a nickel. And some will never think a tool is made well enough.

 

[VolvoRyan]

Unfortunately it's far far more complex than that. But rather then typing for an hour and a half I'll take the easy way out and let someone far more reputable than I do the heavy lifting on this one.
Basic Economics - Thomas Sowell Audible Audio Edition

Yup. That would be why I only typed a few sentences.

-Ryan

 

[Midnattssolen]

Years ago I was working at a livery service garage. I had my "backup" tool set with me. It was a temporary position and I didn't want to take my big chest of good tools. I needed an offset box wrench to remove a particular bolt on a transmission I was removing on a Chrysler mini van. On the way home I stopped at HF and bought a set of offset metric box wrenches as I needed to grind down the end. I didn't want to modify my Matco wrench I had at home. The set was $16. I still have them. They were made in India. The funny thing is most of the box ends have the Snap-On "Flank-Drive" pattern. I got out my engraver and etched "Snap-Off" on them. I use them occasionally. If I have to modify a wrench this is the stuff I buy, rather than cutting up a name brand wrench.

 

[Mallen]

We've all seen and experienced the crapy tools that are "gasp" shittier if not the same turd quality as cheap made in China tools. I stopped buying any hand tools that are made in India (and China) in the last couple of years ever since i discovered higher quality tools that are European and Japanese made, albeit more expensive. We have all generally come to despise tools made in India most often throwing them into the same garbage bin containing crappy Chinese tools.

Now, the confusion for me (being Indian) is that i clearly remember reading in school about the famous Iron pillar currently in Delhi which doesn't rust (so it must have been alloyed with suitable elements) and was built up to a total height of about 7mtrs using individual blocks/pieces (so it must have been forged/welded together), took a cannon ball hit at some point of time and didn't shatter into pieces (so it must have been properly annealed after the manufacturing process) so on an so forth (you can read all about the pillar here) and you know what ? this pillar is dated back to 4th - 5th century. So, it befuddles me that a people who made such good steel millenia and a half ago can't made a decent pair of pliers or sockets today that can compete against the rest of the world ! I mean, what the **** happened India ?

We have all gotten used to hearing of Damascus steel as being the holy grail of the time but we forget that the Arabs took it from Persia who took it from South India and Srilanka. In fact the well renowned Wootz steel (a GJ search for "Wootz" gave me zero hits) which happens to be the highest carbon steel at the time, was being made in India by 400-500BC !! and exported world wide. At a time when India was being plundered for spices, gold and diamonds, in 327BC, Alexander took a reward/donation of approx 15Kgs of the local Wootz steel from King Porus who was defeated at his hands, surely Alex the great knew real **** (i say he should be made an honorary posthumous GJ member lol) from shiny ****.

So i wonder how and why it has come to this that India makes such crappy tools today after having made the best tool steel (tools at those times were weapons) of the time ?

I have an 8" Indian pipe wrench that's fine. Clearly there is at least one good Indian tool. India can build nuclear warheads. I'm sure someone there knows a thing or two about metallurgy. I think it's more about hitting a price point than being unable to source a price of proper allot stock and heat treat it.

 

[BDT/NWMN]

We see allot of cut-rate tools on the store shelves because the middlemen (and-or) retailers want the profit, and much of the consumer demand is for the lower prices. The retail prices of the not-so-good, good, better and best offerings should hopefully reflect the quality of the particular branded tool line. The word "hopefully" seems like a good fit for the quality vs price comparisons.. Each and every one of Us gets to be a test pilot, and see if our purchases are going to fly.

 

[d.mcfarland]

I have a wrench set (Harbor Freight) that was made in India. It hasn't had any problems yet. I don't use and abuse it daily, but has given me more than the $7 paid for it.

 

[GTO]

I can remember back when horrible freight used to sell these blue handled screwdrivers...they used to crumble in your hands when you tried to loosen any fastener with any force.

 

[MushCreek]

Yet I have an old orange handled one that seems to be indestructible. Go figure.