siemens combination (AFCI / GFCI) breakers ****, should they ****?

[dcg9381]

I've got new residential construction. Bedrooms, halls, etc - they're wired with these combination breakers. They look like this below.
Issue is, pretty much any high load device (vacuum, hair dryer, etc) will trigger them. And of course, someone (me) gets sent outside to reset the breaker. Or worse, someone trips them (not me) and I end up chasing an electrical issue only to find a tripped breaker.

I "get it" per code. But I hate these damn things because they fault so easily.

I've pushed the electrician on a few of them and what he seems to be doing is replacing with an AFCI breaker then installing an in the wall GFCI (often in a place where you would not expect it).

Is this a "live with it" thing due to code or is there a better solution?

 

[Mike1903]

I think these issues haunt all AFCI breakers...I have been looking up on Eaton breakers and seeing tons of references on how Eaton keeps saying a blinking red/solid red on their breakers is normal/working as intended. To me, it is not...

 

[FMB4]

This is evidently a common problem with afci breakers.

3 Common Reasons for AFCI Breakers Tripping | Peterson

AFCI breakers that constantly trip can be very frustrating and an experienced electrician can help. Here are potential reasons for nuisance tripping.

petersonelectricllc.com

 

[Syberia]

Universal motors like those in your vacuum and hair dryer arc by design. AFCI breakers trip when they detect arcing. I've heard that the harmonics created by switching power supplies in many electronics can trip them as well. So yes, they ****.

 

[acer66]

I have an array of the cheapo and dreaded eaton afci‘s in my completely rewired house since 5 years and I have yet one to fail me.

 

[greenskeeper]

Agree... they ****.

 

[sparky 1971]

If the hair dryer is being used in the bathroom it shouldn't be tripping the afci because bathrooms aren't on the list of rooms neediing afci protection.

I know what I would do in your situation, but the contractors warranty will be voided.

 

[dcg9381]

If the hair dryer is being used in the bathroom it shouldn't be tripping the afci because bathrooms aren't on the list of rooms neediing afci protection.

I know what I would do in your situation, but the contractors warranty will be voided.

My "strong" guess is that the electrician did not put the bathroom on it's own circuit.
I'll chalk this up to another thing I've learned as a consumer. Doing it over, I'd specify bathrooms on their own circuits and GFI protection only.

Yea, I know what the non-compliant solution is too.. I was hoping someone would tell me that this series of breakers *****, but apparently they all ****.


Apparently this is the rule:

 

[sparky 1971]

If the bath receptacles are on a circuit by themselves, you can put in a standard breaker and install a gfci receptacle(s). That's about the only compliant thing you can do. You shouldn't have to specify that bathrooms are on their own circuit. Receptacles have to be on a 20 amp circuit. That circuit can consist of all of the bath receptacles or everything, lights and farther fan included, in A bathroom, but that circuit can't leave the bathroom.
I don't do much new residential work, but when I do, I will give each bathroom a 20 amp circuit for receptacles only. Standard breakers and gfci outlets.

 

[dscheidt]

I've got new residential construction. Bedrooms, halls, etc - they're wired with these combination breakers.

The builder's electrician fucked something up. Make them fix it, that's what the warranty is for.

 

[Gozo]

I think these issues haunt all AFCI breakers...I have been looking up on Eaton breakers and seeing tons of references on how Eaton keeps saying a blinking red/solid red on their breakers is normal/working as intended. To me, it is not...

Nope, they’re not supposed to do that. I had put a pair of new lines into the bedrooms and used CH Eaton AFCI breakers. My wife said they keep going off at seemingly random times. I’ve never been there when they tripped. It turns out they’re very susceptible to RFI. I’m a ham radio operator (yeah, nerdy…) and I found I could reliably trigger the breaker with my transmitter. I contacted Eaton and they knew of this. They said certain types of motors give off a lot of radio interference too (like if you’re listening to the AM radio and using the shop vac). They make a series of AFCI breakers with the suffix -HAM (how inventive to come up with that) for just that case. They sent me a pair. Not had a false trigger since, and it’s been at least 2 years.

 

[Mike1903]

Nope, they’re not supposed to do that. I had put a pair of new lines into the bedrooms and used CH Eaton AFCI breakers. My wife said they keep going off at seemingly random times. I’ve never been there when they tripped. It turns out they’re very susceptible to RFI. I’m a ham radio operator (yeah, nerdy…) and I found I could reliably trigger the breaker with my transmitter. I contacted Eaton and they knew of this. They said certain types of motors give off a lot of radio interference too (like if you’re listening to the AM radio and using the shop vac). They make a series of AFCI breakers with the suffix -HAM (how inventive to come up with that) for just that case. They sent me a pair. Not had a false trigger since, and it’s been at least 2 years.

Hmm...that's exactly what Eaton says. Look up the same issue on reddit with cut and paste of emails from Eaton product managers saying blinking or solid red is product working as intended.
I opened a ticket with Eaton Tech support and got the same response.

I just looked up the Eaton catalog and don't see any part # with -HAM. Are you able to share the complete part # or a picture of the breaker?

 

[dcg9381]

The builder's electrician fucked something up. Make them fix it, that's what the warranty is for.

I would, if you can point to what is fucked up. There is no prohibition against having a bedroom wall that's shared with a bathroom be on the same AFI/GFI circuit. It seems that these breakers just ****.

"Builders warranty" - in Texas... Yea, they no teeth here other than lawsuit. I have a good relationship with the GC.

The ones that I've forced a "fix" on result in another on-the-wall GFI plug being added, sometimes in very not-obvious locations, so that's not ideal either.

I designed the lighting of the house, but those plans do not specify individual circuits, unfortunately... Even if they had, I would have missed this issue anyway.

 

[Terry D]

If your bathroom GFCI receptacle is on the same circuit as your bedroom receptacles, That is a no no. Lighting is a different story

 

[dscheidt]

I would, if you can point to what is fucked up. There is no prohibition against having a bedroom wall that's shared with a bathroom be on the same AFI/GFI circuit. It seems that these breakers just ****.

"Builders warranty" - in Texas... Yea, they no teeth here other than lawsuit. I have a good relationship with the GC.

The ones that I've forced a "fix" on result in another on-the-wall GFI plug being added, sometimes in very not-obvious locations, so that's not ideal either.

I designed the lighting of the house, but those plans do not specify individual circuits, unfortunately... Even if they had, I would have missed this issue anyway.

The bathroom receptacles must be served by a circuit that serves either nothing but bathroom receptacles, but can be shared by more than one bathroom, or a circuit dedicated to that bathroom (which can serve all loads in the bathroom). In no case can a bathroom and the bedroom receptacles share a circuit. That's been the NEC requirement for decades, well before AFCI breakers were mandated.

If AFCI breakers trip, something is wrong. It's possible your device is defective. It's possible the breaker is defective. It's much, much more likely that there's a wiring defect (loose splice, nail in wire, neutrals tied together.), which is excactly what AFCI breakers are supposed to trip for.

 

[Gozo]

Hmm...that's exactly what Eaton says. Look up the same issue on reddit with cut and paste of emails from Eaton product managers saying blinking or solid red is product working as intended.
I opened a ticket with Eaton Tech support and got the same response.

I just looked up the Eaton catalog and don't see any part # with -HAM. Are you able to share the complete part # or a picture of the breaker?

I don’t feel like pulling the front off the breaker box (too late and too lazy), but here’s a few links so at least you know I’m not making this up:

Cutler Hammer Arc Fault

So I've been getting a lot of call backs lately to houses that I've wired using Cutler Hammer CH series panels with afci/gfci breakers. Some houses, my own included, have not had any issues. Others however, are a constant pain in my ****! It's not just one circuit either, it's usually...

forums.mikeholt.com

and

New HF Ham tripping breakers.

Ok up front I got my General license last month. I bought an IC-7100, LDG IT-100, 50 feet of new coax 9913 coax, feeding a 9 to 1 unun with 84feet end...

forums.qrz.com

IIRC it’s just the regular part number with the -HAM suffix. Could be they don’t make them anymore, or that they’re all made that way to avoid callbacks. See if a call or email to Eaton support gets some response (and maybe a free breaker).
Let us know.
I later found this on the qrz forum:
If the problem involves an Eaton breaker, e-mail Eaton’s Technical Resource Center at [email protected], or call 1-800-326-9513. To their credit, Eaton has been replacing the problematic AFCI’s with the newer models to correct RFI issues.
It’s from 3 years ago, but the contact info might still be good. Give it a shot.

 

[Stuff]

If your bathroom GFCI receptacle is on the same circuit as your bedroom receptacles, That is a no no. Lighting is a different story

Everything is up to your AHJ. The NEC wording is that you need a 20 amp circuit feeding a receptacle in the bathroom (dedicated or shared between bathroom receptacles). The NEC doesn't prohibit additional receptacles - even 15 amp shared with the bedroom as long as they are GFCI protected. The wording is different than for kitchen/dining room receptacles that doesn't allow this.

Edit: I must have AHD as typed it instead of AHJ.

 

[Terry D]

Everything is up to your AHD. The NEC wording is that you need a 20 amp circuit feeding a receptacle in the bathroom (dedicated or shared between bathroom receptacles). The NEC doesn't prohibit additional receptacles - even 15 amp shared with the bedroom as long as they are GFCI protected. The wording is different than for kitchen/dining room receptacles that doesn't allow this.

You are incorrect. Right out of the 2017 NEC

210.10(C)(3) - Bathroom Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, at least one 120 volt 20 amp branch circuit shall be provided to supply the bathroom(s) receptacle outlets(s), Such circuits shall have no other outlets.

Exemption: Where the 20 amp circuit supplies a single bathroom outlets for other equipment within the same bathroom shall be permitted to be supplied in accordance with 210.23(A)(1)and (A)(2)

Although the AHJ can waive special requirements or permit alternative methods, I do not see them changing this requirement, due to the simple fact that with todays hair dyers, curling irons, etc. getting plugged into these receptacles

 

[Stuff]

You are incorrect. Right out of the 2017 NEC

210.10(C)(3) - Bathroom Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, at least one 120 volt 20 amp branch circuit shall be provided to supply the bathroom(s) receptacle outlets(s), Such circuits shall have no other outlets.

Exemption: Where the 20 amp circuit supplies a single bathroom outlets for other equipment within the same bathroom shall be permitted to be supplied in accordance with 210.23(A)(1)and (A)(2)

Although the AHJ can waive special requirements or permit alternative methods, I do not see them changing this requirement, due to the simple fact that with todays hair dyers, curling irons, etc. getting plugged into these receptacles

You need to read it fully. It states "at least one"..."circuit"..."shall have no other outlets." There is no prohibition for other circuits to be installed, only that the 20 amp circuit has restrictions. Compare it to the wording of the kitchen in 210.10(C)(1) which states "shall be provided for all receptacle outlets"

Discussion has been going on for years - https://forums.mikeholt.com/threads/clarification-on-bathroom-receptacles.83118/

 

[Terry D]

You need to read it fully. It states "at least one"..."circuit"..."shall have no other outlets." There is no prohibition for other circuits to be installed, only that the 20 amp circuit has restrictions. Compare it to the wording of the kitchen in 210.10(C)(1) which states "shall be provided for all receptacle outlets"

Discussion has been going on for years - https://forums.mikeholt.com/threads/clarification-on-bathroom-receptacles.83118/

You missed they key word. Such circuits shall have no other outlets

 

[sparky 1971]

You need to read it fully. It states "at least one"..."circuit"..."shall have no other outlets." There is no prohibition for other circuits to be installed, only that the 20 amp circuit has restrictions. Compare it to the wording of the kitchen in 210.10(C)(1) which states "shall be provided for all receptacle outlets"

Discussion has been going on for years - https://forums.mikeholt.com/threads/clarification-on-bathroom-receptacles.83118/

210.11(C)(3) Bathroom Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, at least one 120-volt, 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided to supply the bathroom(s) receptacle outlet(s). Such circuits shall have no other outlets.

Exception: Where the 20-ampere circuit supplies a single bathroom, outlets for other equipment within the same bathroom shall be permitted to be supplied in accordance with 210.23(A)(1) and (A)(2).

I read that as all bathroom receptacles are to be on the (a) 20 amp bath circuit.

The 2020 changes things up a little and states that in addition to a receptacle at each sink basin (210.52(D)) receptacles are required at bathroom counter tops and work surfaces. This leaves a little room for your argument that an outlet that isn't at either location in the bath might not have to be on the bath circuit. I wouldn't argue that one, just put it on the bath circuit just like I always have. I've installed lots of receptacles 12" off the floor in bathrooms and never considered putting them on anything except the 20 amp bath circuit.

2020 Code Language:

210.11(C) Dwelling Units.

210.11(C)(3) Bathroom Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, one or more 120-volt, 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided to supply bathroom(s) receptacle outlet(s) required by 210.52(D) and any countertop and similar work surface receptacle outlets. Such circuits shall have no other outlets.

Exception: Where the 20-ampere circuit supplies a single bathroom, outlets for other equipment within the same bathroom shall be permitted to be supplied in accordance with 210.23(A)(1) and (A)(2).

 

[Stuff]

I read that as all bathroom receptacles are to be on the (a) 20 amp bath circuit.

The 2020 changes things up a little and states that in addition to a receptacle at each sink basin (210.52(D)) receptacles are required at bathroom counter tops and work surfaces. This leaves a little room for your argument that an outlet that isn't at either location in the bath might not have to be on the bath circuit. I wouldn't argue that one, just put it on the bath circuit just like I always have. I've installed lots of receptacles 12" off the floor in bathrooms and never considered putting them on anything except the 20 amp bath circuit.

Again, the 2017 code does not include the word "all" but many read into it that it does.

Yes, the 2020 code is better but won't stop the discussion. Lots of times it is easier to extend a different circuit for a retrofit.

 

[Terry D]

A lot of times, easier is not the right way. As far as this discussion goes, we will agree to disagree.

 

[sparky 1971]

Again, the 2017 code does not include the word "all" but many read into it that it does.

Yes, the 2020 code is better but won't stop the discussion. Lots of times it is easier to extend a different circuit for a retrofit.

You are correct, it does not say all. It does say bathroom receptacle outlet(s). The (s) after outlet means potentially more than one. 210.52(D) in 2017 doesn't specify that the receptacle at the sink basin has to be on the 20 amp circuit either, but everyone knows that is the intent. All they tell us is that the sink basin has to have a receptacle within three feet and that the bathroom has to have a 20 amp 120 volt circuit for receptacles.

Also, I think 2020 is worse. It specifies where the 20 amp circuit has to be, but doesn't say where is doesn't have to be unless we go back to outlet(s). Since it specifically says that the sink basin has to be on the 20 amp circuit, and if it has countertop work surface (make up table?), it has to be on that circuit, it now leaves it up to interpretation that any other receptacle doesn't have to be. That's not an argument that I think I could, nor would I even try to, win with an inspector.

 

[Terry D]

You are correct, it does not say all. It does say bathroom receptacle outlet(s). The (s) after outlet means potentially more than one. 210.52(D) in 2017 doesn't specify that the receptacle at the sink basin has to be on the 20 amp circuit either, same with 2020, but everyone knows that is the intent. All they tell us is that the sink basin has to have a receptacle within three feet and that the bathroom has to have a 20 amp 120 volt circuit for receptacles.

Also, I think 2020 is worse. It specifies where the 20 amp circuit has to be, but doesn't say where is doesn't have to be unless we go back to outlet(s).

I have installed receptacles at the bathroom vanity, In cabinets on the counter, inside the vanity. Even behind the toilet for those fancy toilet seats. I could see possibly that one being a loop hole in the code for not having to be on that 20 amp circuit. I could also see in a remodel or add on situation that it might be easier to jump off something closer than extending the 20 amp circuit over there. Is it right? I'm with you, I put them all on the 20 amp circuit. If its a master bath, I don't even share that 20 amp circuit with any other bathroom receptacles.

 

[sparky 1971]

I have installed receptacles at the bathroom vanity, In cabinets on the counter, inside the vanity. Even behind the toilet for those fancy toilet seats. I could see possibly that one being a loop hole in the code for not having to be on that 20 amp circuit. I could also see in a remodel or add on situation that it might be easier to jump off something closer than extending the 20 amp circuit over there. Is it right? I'm with you, I put them all on the 20 amp circuit. If its a master bath, I don't even share that 20 amp circuit with any other bathroom receptacles.

Yep. I'm going with receptacle(s) in the bathroom. When I was wiring homes in Dallas during the mid 90's, the spec houses got one circuit for the bathrooms. Even as a beginner, I thought that was dumb when a hair dryer is 1875 watts. I rarely wire any new homes now, but when I do, each bath gets a 20 amp receptacle circuit, and all the receptacles in that bathroom are on that circuit. The exception being the powder bath. It shares with the closest bathroom, but it does get it's own gfci separate from the bath it's sharing the circuit with.