Joseph rodgers pocket knife questions

[Graeme]

I saw knives were being discussed but thought I'd post this separate as I have some questions.

Sheffield made knife, I'm going to guess 1940s but could be a bit earlier or later.

I know nothing about knives!
This is a family piece. A quick bit of internet searching tells me it's probably quite decent and possibly valuable.

Pics


My questions are...
Can anyone date it?
Is it valuable? (Not that it matters)
I don't know the name for them but some of the strips that provide the spring action are broken.
It's in good condition and blade isn't ground down, but it has some rust.

I really want to get it sorted. I'm tempted to do it myself. I've never taken one apart before though and I don't want to damage the antler.

Any advice on this? Or should I see if I can find someone to do it for me. May be hard in the UK.

If I do get it apart, how cannot deal with the rust?
This is where the value thing comes in. I know I could ruin this easily if I do the wrong thing, from a collector's point of view.

I've no idea why it has the name Ellis Ashton on it. Anything to do with the knife? Possible previous owner? Maybe our family member didn't have it from new.

I can take more, better, pics if people are interested.
I know this is mainly a US based forum but anyone know about British knives?
I'm sure my general repair questions are the same the world over though.

 

[Dave455]

I saw knives were being discussed but thought I'd post this separate as I have some questions.

Sheffield made knife, I'm going to guess 1940s but could be a bit earlier or later.

I know nothing about knives!
This is a family piece. A quick bit of internet searching tells me it's probably quite decent and possibly valuable.

Pics


My questions are...
Can anyone date it?
Is it valuable? (Not that it matters)
I don't know the name for them but some of the strips that provide the spring action are broken.
It's in good condition and blade isn't ground down, but it has some rust.

I really want to get it sorted. I'm tempted to do it myself. I've never taken one apart before though and I don't want to damage the antler.

Any advice on this? Or should I see if I can find someone to do it for me. May be hard in the UK.

If I do get it apart, how cannot deal with the rust?
This is where the value thing comes in. I know I could ruin this easily if I do the wrong thing, from a collector's point of view.

I've no idea why it has the name Ellis Ashton on it. Anything to do with the knife? Possible previous owner? Maybe our family member didn't have it from new.

I can take more, better, pics if people are interested.
I know this is mainly a US based forum but anyone know about British knives?
I'm sure my general repair questions are the same the world over though.

Yes, a Sheffield made knife!

Joseph Rodgers were one of the premier cutlers from the golden age of Sheffield cutlery, and probably the best known.

Is it quality? If in doubt, just look. Look at the quality of the forgings - does each blade have a perfect “set” so it nestles amongst the others perfectly? Look at the grind - is it even? Is the blade ground to a perfect edge so it could be honed razor sharp with a couple of strokes. Is it perfectly fitted and finished by a skilled cutler?

I’l save you the trouble of looking - it’s all of that!

If Joseph Rodgers (the original company, not the modern one that owns the rights to the name) ever produced a bad knife I’ve yet to see it. This was the firm who produced the famous “year knife” in 1822 - with 1822 blades. The firm who produced the legendary “Norfolk Knife” for the Great Exhibition, etc etc!

Date? The style of the tin opener, the typeface and style of the logo, the shape of the escutcheon and the presence of the button hook suggest to me that this is much earlier than 1940’s. I would guess Edwardian at latest, perhaps Victorian. I’m no expert on Rodgers. Someone who was could probably date it much more accurately.

My advice - if you’ve never worked on knives don’t start with this one. If you can find a former Sheffield cutler he can probably repair it for you. I could suggest a couple who have done work for me, but all are elderly, and all have huge waiting lists!

The other option is to find a custom knife maker. There are any number, but you need one who specialises in pocket knives (which narrows the field) and again, all the good ones have huge backlogs of work.

Worth doing properly though, even if you have to wait. Value at present, hard to say without research, but probably no more than a couple of hundred pounds. Restored, several hundred. Were it a big coachmans or sportsman's knife - then several thousand!

 

[Graeme]

Yes, a Sheffield made knife!

Joseph Rodgers were one of the premier cutlers from the golden age of Sheffield cutlery, and probably the best known.

Is it quality? If in doubt, just look. Look at the quality of the forgings - does each blade have a perfect “set” so it nestles amongst the others perfectly? Look at the grind - is it even? Is the blade ground to a perfect edge so it could be honed razor sharp with a couple of strokes. Is it perfectly fitted and finished by a skilled cutler?

I’l save you the trouble of looking - it’s all of that!

If Joseph Rodgers (the original company, not the modern one that owns the rights to the name) ever produced a bad knife I’ve yet to see it. This was the firm who produced the famous “year knife” in 1822 - with 1822 blades. The firm who produced the legendary “Norfolk Knife” for the Great Exhibition, etc etc!

Date? The style of the tin opener, the typeface and style of the logo, the shape of the escutcheon and the presence of the button hook suggest to me that this is much earlier than 1940’s. I would guess Edwardian at latest, perhaps Victorian. I’m no expert on Rodgers. Someone who was could probably date it much more accurately.

My advice - if you’ve never worked on knives don’t start with this one. If you can find a former Sheffield cutler he can probably repair it for you. I could suggest a couple who have done work for me, but all are elderly, and all have huge waiting lists!

The other option is to find a custom knife maker. There are any number, but you need one who specialises in pocket knives (which narrows the field) and again, all the good ones have huge backlogs of work.

Worth doing properly though, even if you have to wait. Value at present, hard to say without research, but probably no more than a couple of hundred pounds. Restored, several hundred. Were it a big coachmans or sportsman's knife - then several thousand!

Thank you for the info.
I've been reading.
It says Cutler to her majesty, which apparently means pre 1901. But it has these plastic looking infills.


It has 2 broken springs, which it turns out, can be removed. Not sure if unbroken ones would go back in though. Maybe.


I knew it was good quality, you can tell as soon as you pick it up. I just wasn't sure if it was particularly desirable.
Several hundreds restored you say?
Not that bit really matters. I'd spend more than it's worth to restore it and I'll never sell it.
It's just if it was worth £20, I'd be more inclined to have a go myself!
I may make a spring and see if it will go in.

But, I don't think I could do a good job of polishing it without it being in pieces.

I have e.mailed 2 folding knife makers, I'll see what they say.

 

[Dave455]

No problem!

Pre 1901, oh yes! Rodgers were making knives in the early 1700’s. Their victorian ones were probably their best, though they were making decent ones into the 20th century.

I recall their pocket knives from the 1970’s. They were trying to compete with the Swiss and couldn’t - totally different production methods. Though I do own a naval pattern jack knife that’s probably one of the last they ever made, and the quality is first class, so they could still do it!

Good luck with your quest! I understand where you are coming from. I would wade in to a £20 knife but would be reluctant here. Rodgers are among the best, there are a limited number, and values are only going one way.

I rarely find broken springs on a Rodgers knife. If I do it’s usually because the blades have been opened half way at both ends simultaneously - something you should never do, but I’ve seen supposed experts do it.

I have repaired a couple of knives myself, but you have to completely disassemble the knife, drill then file a new spring out of EN45 spring steel, heat treat and reassemble! Any new parts have to be left oversize and the whole thing ground and buffed back. I’ve been happy with the results but the knives were relatively simple.

If you do get it apart, don’t polish it. Just use something like evaporust or Jenolite to to remove the corrosion!

Further info on Rodgers -

Below is their famous “year knife” from 1822. The quality of the workmanship is stunning.

This knife was designed to have one blade added every year until the year 2000. The legendary Stan Shaw, probably the last of the real Sheffield cutlers, fitted the last blade in 2000! He sadly passed away earlier this year.

And the “Norfolk Knife” made for the Great Exhibition.

This is, without doubt, the finest knife I have ever seen!

And I’ve seen a lot…!

 

[Graeme]

No problem!

Pre 1901, oh yes! Rodgers were making knives in the early 1700’s. Their victorian ones were probably their best, though they were making decent ones into the 20th century.

I recall their pocket knives from the 1970’s. They were trying to compete with the Swiss and couldn’t - totally different production methods. Though I do own a naval pattern jack knife that’s probably one of the last they ever made, and the quality is first class, so they could still do it!

Further info on Rodgers -

Below is their famous “year knife” from 1822. The quality of the workmanship is stunning.

This knife was designed to have one blade added every year until the year 2000. The legendary Stan Shaw, probably the last of the real Sheffield cutlers, fitted the last blade in 2000!

And the “Norfolk Knife” made for the Great Exhibition.

This is, without doubt, the finest knife I have ever seen!

And I’ve seen a lot…!

I've seen a few pics of that Norfolk knife while searching for info on mine. The more I see it, the more I think I've seen it in person. There was a display a good few years back of top quality sheffield made stuff, can't remember if it was in Sheffield botanical gardens, or in the museum. I wonder if it was on display?

Was quite a while ago, I may well be wrong and I may have just seen a picture when I was looking for Sheffield knife makers a few years ago.

 

[Ats34]

I used to do knife repair and restorations professionally and for Puma brand knives. Pocket knife repair is labor intensive and most knife makers are hesitant to take on the work. Antique knives had a lot of hand fitting, so the back springs will probably have to be replaced, hand fitted and heat treated properly. Disassembly and reassembly is a learned art. Proper restorations may cost over $500 in today’s market.

 

[Graeme]

I used to do knife repair and restorations professionally and for Puma brand knives. Pocket knife repair is labor intensive and most knife makers are hesitant to take on the work. Antique knives had a lot of hand fitting, so the back springs will probably have to be replaced, hand fitted and heat treated properly. Disassembly and reassembly is a learned art. Proper restorations may cost over $500 in today’s market.

Even though I have no experience with knives, I'm no stranger to hand making and fitting parts. They are just normally motorcycle parts.
Doing some currency converting, my gut instinct was to be happy if it was $300-$350.
If it turns out to be closer to $500, then that might put me back in the frame of mind to have a go myself.

I know it's an entirely different situation, but I had one of the last little mesters in Sheffield make a few single blade folders for me, with antler and horn handles, and they cost me $18 each!

 

[Dave455]

I've seen a few pics of that Norfolk knife while searching for info on mine. The more I see it, the more I think I've seen it in person. There was a display a good few years back of top quality sheffield made stuff, can't remember if it was in Sheffield botanical gardens, or in the museum. I wonder if it was on display?

Was quite a while ago, I may well be wrong and I may have just seen a picture when I was looking for Sheffield knife makers a few years ago.

More than likely you saw the real thing!

Both the Norfolk knife and the year knife are in Sheffield, and get displayed at various exhibitions!

I first saw it as a child and was quite captivated by it. Seeing it again as an adult it was every bit as good as I remembered.

There were many of these ”exhibition” knives produced.

I can remember seeing one in the famous London tool shop “Buck and Ryan” in the 1970’s. I thought, back then, that I must have seen the Rodgers “year knife”, as it was that sort of size, but it was totally different.

I wonder what that knife was, and where it is now?

Can any other U.K. members help?

 

[Graeme]

Where was the buck and Ryan shop?
I live in sheffield area now, but I'm from east London way.

 

[Dave455]

Where was the buck and Ryan shop?
I live in sheffield area now, but I'm from east London way.

Tottenham Court Road, west side, about half way between Goodge St and Warren St Underground stations.

Walking north along Tottenham Court Road, you kept going past all the surplus shops (in the 60’s and 70‘s) or Hi-Fi/ electronics shops (1980’s), then just after you passed the road on the left to the Post Office tower you came to a little parade of shops set back. They occupied a pair of those.

In the 70’s they were a top grade tool shop. The place was crammed and you could get anything. As well as just about any hand tool they kept things like taps, dies and milling cutters. I think the bulk of their business was still supplying local factories.

By the 80’s those factories couldn’t afford London Rates, so the suppliers vanished as the factories moved out. I probably bought my last tools in Buck and Ryan in the early ‘80’s. They still had a good selection of hand tool’s, but not what they’d had previously. All the “curio’s” had gone. The old stock, the specialist tools, rare woodworking planes, the cabinet of Sheffield made pocket knives, all gone.

I visited in the mid / late 80’s and even the hand tools had been reduced to a minimum. I didn’t buy anything. Nothing to buy. I looked at the door, saw a brief vision of my Grandfather marching through it with a beaming smile and rubbing his hands (a family tradition observed many times on those premises), then left! I never went back.

 

[Graeme]

I know exactly where you mean, but it was the early 90s before my first visit to that part of London and it would have been mid 90s before I would have cared about tools.
I went to London guild hall university in the mid 90s, I was hand making 14th century guitars. We weren't buying our tools in London though.
I did silversmithing for a while too. Those tools I did buy in London, but all over farringdon way.

 

[Dave455]

I know exactly where you mean, but it was the early 90s before my first visit to that part of London and it would have been mid 90s before I would have cared about tools.
I went to London guild hall university in the mid 90s, I was hand making 14th century guitars. We weren't buying our tools in London though.
I did silversmithing for a while too. Those tools I did buy in London, but all over farringdon way.

Ahh, all gone by then sadly!

My Grandmother went to Guildhall School of Music too, as it was then. Quite the place to go! Her family ran a transport company in Bow, so use of tools was an essential family skill.

Most of the London tool shops seemed to disappear at about the same time. My Grandfather also frequented Lee’s in Tottenham. Been a customer since the 1920’s. That was still going into the 80’s, but didn’t see out the decade.

 

[Ats34]

Even though I have no experience with knives, I'm no stranger to hand making and fitting parts. They are just normally motorcycle parts.
Doing some currency converting, my gut instinct was to be happy if it was $300-$350.
If it turns out to be closer to $500, then that might put me back in the frame of mind to have a go myself.

I know it's an entirely different situation, but I had one of the last little mesters in Sheffield make a few single blade folders for me, with antler and horn handles, and they cost me $18 each!

If trying it yourself I would recommend using a fine jewelers saw to cut through all the rivets/pins to disassemble the knife. It is the best way to insure the handle scales are not damaged. This method will also leave enough rivet/pin pieces to accurately measure and size replacement pieces. Good luck with the project.

 

[Graeme]

If trying it yourself I would recommend using a fine jewelers saw to cut through all the rivets/pins to disassemble the knife. It is the best way to insure the handle scales are not damaged. This method will also leave enough rivet/pin pieces to accurately measure and size replacement pieces. Good luck with the project.

That's a good idea. I have some very fine piercing saw blades.