Game Over Journeymen

[mrobins297aaa]

Surprising how few residential installations use flexible canvas connectors at the air handler. They'll get rid of more mechanical noise transmitted thru the structure of a house by an HVAC system than any other device you could use yet almost no residential contractors use them.

probably the cost, if your making them by hand on a hand brake there time consuming.
When we were doing replacement furnaces we always used them on the sa and ra, most of the time it made the install much easier.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Must be a NJ thing, around here in the Detroit area we always called it flex duct.
and for the square metal ducts they were called flex connectors.

In over 50 years of sheet metal work I have never heard them called fabric expansion joints, if I was to send a cut sheet into the shop foreman and told him I needed a 24 x 10 fabric expansion joint it surely would have prompted a call with "what the hell is that".
I believe the Michigan mech. code book does list the max. use of flex duct at 14' but all commercial work that was "plan and spec" was never more than 5' .........

A lot of tin knockers around here call the expansion joints "flex ducts" or "rag joints, too. I was just being specific with the code/engineering terminology.

As I previously posted, UMC sets the limit for a flex connector at 14', but has no limit for flex duct. Local codes can be more stringent.

Tommy

 

[brewchief]

probably the cost, if your making them by hand on a hand brake there time consuming.

When we were doing replacement furnaces we always used them on the sa and ra, most of the time it made the install much easier.

We buy the canvas duct connector in 100 foot rolls, last I looked it was around a 100$ a roll so a buck a foot. I see tons of jobs with one on the return drop because it makes that easier to put together but nothing on the supply side because it's slightly faster to simply connect the duct to the plenum with having to deal with a flex joint.


In the last 25 years I have seen product after product come out the people say will be the end of skilled people installing whatever it makes easier and sometimes it might but most of the time it just makes a job go quicker.

All of these types of products can be used by skilled trades to improve their quality or in some cases to take major shortcuts and put out a **** job, the guy doing **** work will do it with whatever product is available to them.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

 

[mrobins297aaa]

A lot of tin knockers around here call the expansion joints "flex ducts" or "rag joints, too. I was just being specific with the code/engineering terminology.

As I previously posted, UMC sets the limit for a flex connector at 14', but has no limit for flex duct. Local codes can be more stringent.

Tommy

understand

 

[mrobins297aaa]

We buy the canvas duct connector in 100 foot rolls, last I looked it was around a 100$ a roll so a buck a foot. I see tons of jobs with one on the return drop because it makes that easier to put together but nothing on the supply side because it's slightly faster to simply connect the duct to the plenum with having to deal with a flex joint.


In the last 25 years I have seen product after product come out the people say will be the end of skilled people installing whatever it makes easier and sometimes it might but most of the time it just makes a job go quicker.

All of these types of products can be used by skilled trades to improve their quality or in some cases to take major shortcuts and put out a **** job, the guy doing **** work will do it with whatever product is available to them.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

yeah that's the way we used to buy it also, I don't think it comes any other way.
Your right about the canvas's on furnaces, it all depends on the job, before I said we always used them, well most of the time.

I don't have them on my furnace, it never had them from the original install and when i replaced it 10 years ago it was just so much easier to replace it and leave what was there, because the new furnace had the exact same size cabinet.

All that stuff is made to save time and cut cost and unfortunately it also takes some of the skill out of the trade. And a whole lot of man hours out of the trade also.

 

[mobiledynamics]

Brump. Do you guys give a o-ring a extra swab of -lube- before installing, just for good measure of mitigating dry rot

 

[flat350]

Old school retired plumber here.My house will always be swt. type L copper,C.I. stacks and PVC vents,not a believer in press fittings yet and don't really care for the look of PEX.I'll throw this in the mix,we did a lot of work with larger copper piping and used Gruvlok joints and a tee drill/puller on the copper mains as opposed to using Gruvlok fittings.
No cost for fittings when doing main runs in 2" up except for Gruvlok couplings,tee tool can be pricey and you need a groover but on every tee you eliminate 2 swt. joints,you do need to be able to braze the one joint.When your'e running 4" and 6" pipe it really is quicker but takes a different skill set.

 

[Bopbop]

I am a mechanical engineer by trade who designs plumbing, fire sprinklers, medical and fuel gas systems for commercial buildings. We do a lot of hospital work. My standard specification is copper tubing with sweat joints. Pro-press is an option. Typically we see sweat fittings with pro press for the larger mains.
In renovation work in the hospitals and other buildings which require a burn permit approval we will use pro press. When installed right it looks good and you have no issues with it. Only a few times have I seen an issue with the install. These have been because of an installer error or better yet carelessness or once the tool was not properly calibrated.

 

[mobiledynamics]

for the app at hand for me, it's exposed, right up againt joists, dense piping. So I'm using PP for the no flame, and dense area torch vs. Press. If it leaks, I will know...its not buried behind the wall.

I have a full torch setup but I have to say.....the M12 tool with the Ridgid compact jaws for the press is quite nice.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Brump. Do you guys give a o-ring a extra swab of -lube- before installing, just for good measure of mitigating dry rot

The o-rings are prelubed and additional lube shouldn't be used.

Tommy

 

[mobiledynamics]

Got my order of fittings in. Weekend warrior here. Only have worked with L copper for the most part. These fittings have got some weight to them....have to go back for a second loo k but I feel like they are 2X or maybe 2.5X thicker than your typical sweat fitting

 

[danski0224]

They have to be like that for the crimp to work.

 

[59 wagon man]

the trick is when you fit the pro press together bottom the pipe into the fitting, then use scribe a line around the pipe right against the fitting. Now as you crimp make sure the pipe stays seated in the fitting all the way

 

[LS6 Tommy]

the trick is when you fit the pro press together bottom the pipe into the fitting, then use scribe a line around the pipe right against the fitting. Now as you crimp make sure the pipe stays seated in the fitting all the way

Black Sharpie works fine. Mark an "X" at each joint after you press. Makes for good double checking.

Tommy

 

[mobiledynamics]

@ Homers to grab a piece of duct to do some rework.

Push to fit PVC fittings these days
How much more can they dumb it down

I guess it's okay to bump my own thread 1 year later

 

[PoorUB]

There's no real need for flexible sheet metal duct connectors in residential systems anymore. They don't have as much vibration as they used to and nowhere near as much as commercial/industrial equipment.

Tommy

I put them in my home. Stopped a lot of the duct noise from expansion and contraction. I could sit in my family room, the heat would come on and I would here this very quiet creaking noise as the duct warmed up. I put flex connectors in all the duct runs and it stopped.

 

[PoorUB]

Ah, but the buider doesn't care about much of anything but short term profit.

Building deficiencies are the homeowners problem.

Then, as codes are strengthened to address the shortcuts, the builders complain about the added costs...

It isn't necessarily the builder. The homeowner wants as much home as they can get for their money so it forces the builder to go to less expensive ways to do the job.

I used to do HVAC and the company I was with worked for a custom home builder, over million $$ homes. Everything was rigid duct and copper plumbing. That was before all the press stuff came along, but no PEX in the house either. Those homes were like a small commercial job.

I remember talking to the architect and the homeowner about some changes. I mentioned the changes would go over budget and the homeowner looked at me and said, "Budget? What budget?" Those are the jobs a contractor wants!

 

[Jim greengo]

For the plumbers on this thread or those in the know, what's the story with Low Lead valves and such....

Sitting here coming up with a laundry list for some upcoming spring projects. I know all lines feeding potable needs to be LL. Just thinking outloud I suppose. What about the fixture itself. Or however many miles the water is underground down to the property...

They take a little getting used to in my experiance,they dont like heat like the old valves did when installing them.

 

[Jim greengo]

It isn't necessarily the builder. The homeowner wants as much home as they can get for their money so it forces the builder to go to less expensive ways to do the job.

I used to do HVAC and the company I was with worked for a custom home builder, over million $$ homes. Everything was rigid duct and copper plumbing. That was before all the press stuff came along, but no PEX in the house either. Those homes were like a small commercial job.

I remember talking to the architect and the homeowner about some changes. I mentioned the changes would go over budget and the homeowner looked at me and said, "Budget? What budget?" Those are the jobs a contractor wants!

Builders will replace you in a heartbeat for a "name your trade" who can save him $20.00 a house! Hahaha
That's 1 reason I never did new construction work after I opened my own shop way back when,lot more money and fewer headaches in service work and remodels.

 

[Rc_Guy]

On top of that, what sprinkler system isn't under constant pressure? The vast majority are at city water pressure 24/7.

The only exception I can think of would be deluge system.

Never saw this post, every sprinkler system with a fire pump connected to city water is sitting at 140-160 psi all the time

 

[PoorUB]

Builders will replace you in a heartbeat for a "name your trade" who can save him $20.00 a house! Hahaha
That's 1 reason I never did new construction work after I opened my own shop way back when,lot more money and fewer headaches in service work and remodels.

On entry level or tract homes that is true. When you get to the high end builders the price is not as important and the quality of the work.

If you are doing tract homes for a builder you are probably losing money on every one.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

I put them in my home. Stopped a lot of the duct noise from expansion and contraction. I could sit in my family room, the heat would come on and I would here this very quiet creaking noise as the duct warmed up. I put flex connectors in all the duct runs and it stopped.

I can see where that would be a good use for rag joints.

Tommy

 

[Walkers]

As I see it, there will still be plenty of pipe to thread, weld, braze and solder for at least the next handful of decades for those of us who can still do it. I can work with PE and other plastics too, just prefer metal pipes. Now if they start making plastic pipes in 4” and up, with test pressures as high as steel pipe it might start limiting the metal pipe trade, I just don‘t see it happening any time soon. My career has lived through the advent of PE, CSST, PEX, and all their associated fittings. I am sure there will be more, but there is still a glare need for traditional piping. Some have dwindled, ABS and PVC in gas service went away (thanks be to god), not many people using galvy for water (another good thing). The current underground stuff seems pretty decent. I have no complaints about not being up in roof trusses for a longer time threading or sweating pipe, so bring it on!

 

[Rc_Guy]

As I see it, there will still be plenty of pipe to thread, weld, braze and solder for at least the next handful of decades for those of us who can still do it. I can work with PE and other plastics too, just prefer metal pipes. Now if they start making plastic pipes in 4” and up, with test pressures as high as steel pipe it might start limiting the metal pipe trade, I just don‘t see it happening any time soon. My career has lived through the advent of PE, CSST, PEX, and all their associated fittings. I am sure there will be more, but there is still a glare need for traditional piping. Some have dwindled, ABS and PVC in gas service went away (thanks be to god), not many people using galvy for water (another good thing). The current underground stuff seems pretty decent. I have no complaints about not being up in roof trusses for a longer time threading or sweating pipe, so bring it on!

We use cpvc pipe, blazemaster, for fire sprinklers and test to 200 psi

 

[Jackfre]

Regardeless of the material changes, I think the future for any good mechanic who is a businessman is secure. Fewer and fewer people are entering the trades. If you know your business and trade AND you show up, you are going to do well in todays and tomorrows world, regardless of what they throw at you. It’s the man or the woman, not the material!

 

[Walkers]

Regardeless of the material changes, I think the future for any good mechanic who is a businessman is secure. Fewer and fewer people are entering the trades. If you know your business and trade AND you show up, you are going to do well in todays and tomorrows world, regardless of what they throw at you. It’s the man or the woman, not the material!

I was teaching my son the other day that a majority of success is just showing up. On time and every day cinches it pretty good.

 

[mobiledynamics]

Circling back on this ProPress thread.
Noticed something different. All I use are Viega's which is a smooth round O-Ring.
I have on hand a Nibco 1/2-3/4 reducing ProPress fitting which looks nothing like the Nibco Press fitting I saw the other day. The O ring has a running spiral on it. Never seen something like that. Wouldn't that not maintain a flat -cylindrical- seal. While I know the O ring is not the primary seal in this app, does a non-smooth o-ring make a sealing contact due to it not being smooth ? O ring literally gas a spiral -raised- surface on the profile of it.