To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

Snow melting right at soffit line *pics*

atvkid4eva

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 22, 2020
Messages
78
Location
Cleveland, OH
I have a 30x40 shop that has R13 in the walls and has blown in fiberglass in the attic at an R38 thickness. The ceiling is finished drywall. I keep the shop heated around 55deg in the winter and just had the attic insulated a month or so ago. We haven’t had and significant snow in Ohio yet, but even with the dusting we have now it looks like the snow is melting right after the soffit line. Is this going to be a problem and cause ice dams with heavy snow? See pics. What could be causing this?
 

Attachments

  • 0BE1CAF9-A9D2-42AA-BAAC-268E47591C02.jpeg
    0BE1CAF9-A9D2-42AA-BAAC-268E47591C02.jpeg
    118.8 KB · Views: 244
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

Sumboodie

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 20, 2021
Messages
10,706
Location
AK
May just be the rafter held heat from the sun.
I've had it happen were the frost shows the roof framing, or even wall studs Air temps/humidity just right.
 
OP
A

atvkid4eva

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 22, 2020
Messages
78
Location
Cleveland, OH
Looks like the air flow into the soffits is above freezing and your newish insulation is keeping the roof colder. Don’t see it as an issue.
You mean keeping the roof warmer? The insulation does contact the first couple feet of the roof sheeting in the attic due to the thickness it was blown in
 

readhead

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 8, 2012
Messages
6,185
Location
Durango, Co.
With shingles you do have a potential problem. Was ice and water shield installed two rows up from the fascia?
I battled a similar problem for years until this summer I removed the shingles up to the wall line and installed flat sheet metal so the snow won't sit over the cold soffit.
 

Copymutt

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 3, 2016
Messages
3,394
Location
Colorado
You mean keeping the roof warmer? The insulation does contact the first couple feet of the roof sheeting in the attic due to the thickness it was blown in
Just the opposite. Little or no heat is now escaping into the attic if you insulated the ceiling and roof stays cold due to proper venting.
 
OP
A

atvkid4eva

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 22, 2020
Messages
78
Location
Cleveland, OH
With shingles you do have a potential problem. Was ice and water shield installed two rows up from the fascia?
I battled a similar problem for years until this summer I removed the shingles up to the wall line and installed flat sheet metal so the snow won't sit over the cold soffit.
Not sure if water shield was installed at the time the roof was done….
 

Kenstone1

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 2, 2015
Messages
734
You mean keeping the roof warmer? The insulation does contact the first couple feet of the roof sheeting in the attic due to the thickness it was blown in
You need to install some rafter vents/roof baffles to allow air to flow from the soffit vents to the gable vents.
These:
jmo,
 
OP
A

atvkid4eva

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 22, 2020
Messages
78
Location
Cleveland, OH

readhead

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 8, 2012
Messages
6,185
Location
Durango, Co.
The vent chutes go in every bay. It looks like when the insulation was blown in it didn't reach all the way to the edge and there are some thin spots letting heat reach the roof. The snow will freeze over the soffits and create an ice dam. The ice and water is a backup in case water gets under the shingles. For now just keeping the snow raked away from the edge will stop any damage until you can rework things in the spring.
 
OP
A

atvkid4eva

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 22, 2020
Messages
78
Location
Cleveland, OH
The vent chutes go in every bay. It looks like when the insulation was blown in it didn't reach all the way to the edge and there are some thin spots letting heat reach the roof. The snow will freeze over the soffits and create an ice dam. The ice and water is a backup in case water gets under the shingles. For now just keeping the snow raked away from the edge will stop any damage until you can rework things in the spring.
What you’re saying makes sense, but I’m not sure how the insulation could of not made it to the edge being that it is a wide open shot when they were installing. I’d be pretty disappointed in the installers if that was the issue
 

Showkey

"MEMBER EMERITUS"
Joined
Aug 9, 2014
Messages
8,638
Location
Wausau WI
My vote normal……….very common, . watch frost line on cold days, there’s a dramatic line at the soffit vs insulated area of the roof. Soffit area will less frost.

I have R60 in the ceiling……..will take a picture of the frost line tomorrow weather dependent.
 

readhead

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 8, 2012
Messages
6,185
Location
Durango, Co.
I have seen it several times. It happened at my house also and I had to make a tool to spread it to the edges. Now I make sure it is installed properly on all my jobs.
 
OP
A

atvkid4eva

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 22, 2020
Messages
78
Location
Cleveland, OH
My vote normal……….very common, . watch frost line on cold days, there’s a dramatic line at the soffit vs insulated area of the roof. Soffit area will less frost.

I have R60 in the ceiling……..will take a picture of the frost line tomorrow weather dependent.
That would be great! Would ease my mind a bit. I don’t want to deal with ice dams this year, hopefully it is normal.
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!
OP
A

atvkid4eva

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 22, 2020
Messages
78
Location
Cleveland, OH
I have seen it several times. It happened at my house also and I had to make a tool to spread it to the edges. Now I make sure it is installed properly on all my jobs.
Another thing is that where the ceiling drywall ends, it isn’t sealed. Maybe some heat is escaping there. That aligns with the melt line
 

Sumboodie

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 20, 2021
Messages
10,706
Location
AK
You mean keeping the roof warmer? The insulation does contact the first couple feet of the roof sheeting in the attic due to the thickness it was blown in
There are cardboard dealies that staple in the stud bay so that doesn't happen and allow soffits vents to work, but have good insulation
 

Showkey

"MEMBER EMERITUS"
Joined
Aug 9, 2014
Messages
8,638
Location
Wausau WI
That would be great! Would ease my mind a bit. I don’t want to deal with ice dams this year, hopefully it is normal.
Sorry no pics ………….wind and 27* F no frost today……..maybe tomorrow ? ToNight in the teens….

Its to early to tell if the OP has a concern. The OP pic does look like you can see the individual rafters transmitting heat. It might be the sun. R38 should be good enough.
 
Last edited:

Uncle murph

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 28, 2021
Messages
1,476
Location
Harford county
I have a 30x40 shop that has R13 in the walls and has blown in fiberglass in the attic at an R38 thickness. The ceiling is finished drywall. I keep the shop heated around 55deg in the winter and just had the attic insulated a month or so ago. We haven’t had and significant snow in Ohio yet, but even with the dusting we have now it looks like the snow is melting right after the soffit line. Is this going to be a problem and cause ice dams with heavy snow? See pics. What could be causing this?
Unless there’s snow seal along the bottom 3’ of roof,it’s going to leak.
 

Showkey

"MEMBER EMERITUS"
Joined
Aug 9, 2014
Messages
8,638
Location
Wausau WI
Unless there’s snow seal along the bottom 3’ of roof,it’s going to leak.
Going to leak ? NOT true…………ice and water shield helps with leaks if you have ice dams. Ice dams are related to the insulation and or melting and refreezing at the gutter. There are many homes that were built without ice and water shield on the bottom 3’ and they don’t leak. Mine was one…….20 plus years old, replaced the roof never leak, to my surprise found no ice watershield………this is in a winter climate There are times where the roof has 24-28” of snow on the roof. The new roof has ice and water shield minimum of 6’ from the gutter

Yes…… ice water shield is important and is standard in many areas. Low bid roofer may skip the shield. Some shingle warranty require shield to be installed 12”-24” past the interior wall verticle line to the roof.
 
Last edited:

PoorUB

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 29, 2021
Messages
11,668
Location
Fargo, ND
I agree that the rafter vents should have been put in every rafter bay. If you look at the picture you can see every few bays where the snow doesn't look like it is melted. My bet that is where the vents are in place.
 

Kenstone1

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 2, 2015
Messages
734
I agree that the rafter vents should have been put in every rafter bay. If you look at the picture you can see every few bays where the snow doesn't look like it is melted. My bet that is where the vents are in place.
Yep, I saw that too, just what I alluded to in my previous post #14:
but got blown-off,
:confused:
 

Showkey

"MEMBER EMERITUS"
Joined
Aug 9, 2014
Messages
8,638
Location
Wausau WI
Light frost this morning 22*F 77% humidity. Several picture where the soffit line can seen. Some are unheated insulated garage space, home pics are 68* inside temp. Home and garage are R60 with open vent soffit, continuous roof ridge vent, insulation baffles every other rafter bay.

This home is 20 plus year old In a winter climate. New roof ice water shield past the inside wall area. Upgraded insulation in the last 5 years. Before and after upgrade never any ice dams or leaks over the 10years I owned it. Old roof had no ice and water shield.

The front view is 5’ deep porch where the soffit is 5‘ plus deep for the roof area free of frost for over 6’.

57A6C6CB-58EC-4DA2-898F-C66920018508.jpeg4EBF08E3-41B5-4C47-9882-797B59DBF7C7.jpeg96AE6DC2-D3D3-4534-B1C4-F733194AAC01.jpeg08846EE7-3161-4425-977C-02D182047CD6.jpeg
 

Showkey

"MEMBER EMERITUS"
Joined
Aug 9, 2014
Messages
8,638
Location
Wausau WI
While frost can vary by conditions like wind, trees, temperature etc comparison pictures same day:

A. Home addition right side less insulation soffit vents.
B. Weak insulation gable vent, no soffit vents.
C. Weak insulation garage area is clearly colder than the home.
29736330-2E7E-4A92-A70B-797B373038EE.jpeg

97B7E052-D8CB-4C45-9FB2-C59B3175D030.jpeg
802E5ACE-4B03-495F-A5F2-A4C5CC1872E8.jpeg
 

jmdirk

Well-known member
Joined
May 4, 2015
Messages
709
Perfectly normal. As it warms up in the morning, even due to the sun, the overhang is going to warm up faster than the rest of the roof. You see the same effect on these other pictures posted even to the point where you can see exactly where the trusses are. The area between the trusses warms up faster than the area over the trusses due to the trusses providing an insulting effect from underneath.
 

duneslider

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 20, 2013
Messages
2,264
Location
Riverton, Utah
I have extruded metal on the top half of the walls. It stops right below the ceiling line with J channel. The drywall meets the wood framing, but is not air tight. I can send some pics
This is definitely something that you need to address. Heat is absolutely making it through that joint and into the upper cavity taking with it the warm moist air from the shop.
 

Showkey

"MEMBER EMERITUS"
Joined
Aug 9, 2014
Messages
8,638
Location
Wausau WI
Perfectly normal. As it warms up in the morning, even due to the sun, the overhang is going to warm up faster than the rest of the roof. You see the same effect on these other pictures posted even to the point where you can see exactly where the trusses are. The area between the trusses warms up faster than the area over the trusses due to the trusses providing an insulting effect from underneath.
Agree it is normal and theres a temperature difference at the soffit. The light frost is very sensitive to that temp change or difference.
No sun 100% cloud cover and some were taken just at sun rise.
A,B,C absolutely have weak insulation those roofs are significantly warmer than ambient.
significant to change the frost characteristics but not the snowmelt and none of those homes have any ice dam or leakage problem. There’s no way I would make any changes based on frost unless I was interested in making the tightest well vented attic space.
I do suspect B,C have higher heating cost…….seat of the pants guess R19 in the attic that’s 25-30 years old.

Now its 26*F light snow 100% cloud coverage. Pictures show the snow is not as sensitive to the temperature difference and no melting. So the frost is better indicator to slight changes in temperature .
It might too early to tell for the OP about my thought there no real reason for concern.

Holding light frost and light snow is just one small measure. Ice dams and leaks are more about poor insulation and weather conditions. Weather conditions witha significant snow fall then melting, direct sun, significant rain on that snow. Refreezing at the gutter. That’s when ice and water shield come into play.

F4344878-EE36-453C-8B38-3D19CC7B0894.jpegA3C687D6-3D1F-437D-88CB-44D1FAE25139.jpeg242F6CC0-04E7-4839-966A-1F726944CD89.jpeg
 
Last edited:

Innovate1

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 28, 2014
Messages
4,289
Location
Illinois near St. Louis, Missouri
Raised heel trusses help with this issue but it's too late for that. You need to seal up the air leaks and put insulation chutes in every bay. Try to get insulation chutes that are as wide as possible. I have seen some that are significantly narrower than the truss spacing. You want to keep the bottom of the roof as close to outside temp as possible.
 

duneslider

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 20, 2013
Messages
2,264
Location
Riverton, Utah
I don't see a point in putting in air baffles in every single cavity. You just need to have more vent space in the soffit than in the top of the roof.

If the "living" space is not sealed from the attic space the warm air will escape into the attic space.
 

hefnerconstructionlc

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 1, 2016
Messages
665
Location
Kansas
The point of attic baffles are not just to move air in and out it's to separate the underside of the roof decking from the insulation. The insulation touches the underside of the roof deck and it forms a conduit that pulls heat from the interior of the house to the outside of the building and freezes.
 

PoorUB

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 29, 2021
Messages
11,668
Location
Fargo, ND
The point of attic baffles are not just to move air in and out it's to separate the underside of the roof decking from the insulation. The insulation touches the underside of the roof deck and it forms a conduit that pulls heat from the interior of the house to the outside of the building and freezes.
Yes, you put baffles in to ensure cool air flows under the roof surface. Keep the roof as cold as the ambient temperatire and no ice dams will form.
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!
Top Bottom