Installing outdoor handrail, into RR tie retaining wall

[joseywales]

I won't get into the debacle that is this house, but when I FIL decided to take a impromptu nap in my flower bed, I decided a 38" handrail might be a good idea. Only have until the 24th, so I ordered a pre-made from Amazon. each mounting plate has 4 holes, and I'm going for the ties, instead of into the cement steps. I'm not totally against the steps, but the ties will be faster, did I mention tomorrow's the 22nd?

- Ties - my plan s to simply drill a pilot hole, then graduate up in diameter. I might use my step-bits, but not sure how well they'll work in the ties. (they rise, similar to the step height). Thoughts?

- Cement - the rail might not line up for cement, but if it does, I'm tempted. I have a 22 Hilti gun, which worked well when I hung various items in my garage walls. Not sure that's ideal for cement though. Drilling might be better, but I've never drilled cement. Cracking, etc., would be a mess for me. And today's the 21st.. Thoughts?

 

[billconner]

Hand rail - for grasping - like along stairs and ramps - or guard rail - to prevent falls?

 

[joseywales]

Hand rail - for grasping - like along stairs and ramps - or guard rail - to prevent falls?

For grasping, which will prevent them from falling - in theory. He stepped VERY oddly, more an eyeglass/depth perception issue, but if he was using a handrail it would like have prevented him from wondering into the center of the stairs

 

[KenB]

Well, from your picture, I’d suggest… oh, but wait, you didn’t post one!

 

[billconner]

Hard to visualize but I think I'd try a structural screw the length near thickness of ties. No drilling. Fast and strong.

 

[quickfarms]

How are the rail road ties secured and are they new or old?

they could just be laying there and or be rotted and not provide much of a base.

without a picture it hard to give advice

personally if the stairs are wide enough I would attach the rail to the concrete. A hammer drill with masonry bits is the best way to drill holes in concrete. Your Hilti is not the best tool close to the edge of the concrete

 

[619DioFan]

Providing the ties are not rotten and are secured ( unable to shift ) just drill some pilot holes and use lag bolts to attach hand rails plates to the ties. . if the ties are not rotten but are somewhat loose , drill through them and drive in some rebar to secure. you can bend the top of the rebar over so the tie can not lift up.

 

[rayra]

Step drill? Are you f'n kidding? what kind of bite for a screw or lag bolt do you think you will get with a step-drill removing the material that's supposed to provide purchase for the screw?

Simpson structural screws. They come in several lengths. Get longer ones.

 

[wssix99]

I have a good bit of experience with this and I don't think a high railing is going to work out well for you...

I have a 24" welded steel railing, mounted to tie plates lagged in with 3/4" bolts and it's all really soft.

The railing itself is stout, but when someone leans against it, there's enough leverage to roll the ties. The problem is that the ties are not very stable. In my situation, I have a short railing that will impale people if they lean on it - so folks don't mess with it much. If it was high purposed for a handrail, my ties would roll or be ripped out of place. (Even though they are tied together and into the ground with 5/8" or greater rebar.

To get something to hold in the ties, you will need lag screws. I would use at least 1/2" screws. (Regular screws will not hold.) You'll need a good drill to make the proper size pilot holes for your lag screws. If your railing is stout and secured to concrete, you might get away with a few plates on top of the ties, but the posts on the ties will still wobble.

 

[wssix99]

I have a 22 Hilti gun, which worked well when I hung various items in my garage walls. Not sure that's ideal for cement though. Drilling might be better, but I've never drilled cement. Cracking, etc., would be a mess for me. And today's the 21st.. Thoughts?

This will not work for securing a railing to concrete. You will need a proper hammer drill and a good concrete bit. The instructions for your railing system should tell you what type of anchors to use. The nails that your Hilti gun shoots only keep things from moving side-to-side. They don't resist the twisting that a railing encounters.

 

[joseywales]

This will not work for securing a railing to concrete. You will need a proper hammer drill and a good concrete bit. The instructions for your railing system should tell you what type of anchors to use. The nails that your Hilti gun shoots only keep things from moving side-to-side. They don't resist the twisting that a railing encounters.

Agreed. I was throwing out these ideas, in case folk knew of way they could be used that i might not be aware of. Should have posted pics, but was literally being drug out the door as i posted - tis the

my instinct was to use my hammer drill and bit, but…ugh, I don’t really trust the steps all that much. A few neighbors had work done and under the steps was…NOTHING. Open space, and I just find that odd.

I also prefer using the ties because, i can remove the rail later if I choose to.

i was not aware of structural screws, so that’s the route I’ll likely choose here

 

[wssix99]

Having the ties sandwiched between the steps and the dirt may give you enough stability for a railing, but you'll need to do a lot of work to get the stanchions cut so the slope of the rail is correct. (When you put them on the steps, you make them all the same length and then the slope follows the slope of the steps naturally.)

You will have voids under the steps. They were poured on top of dirt and rubble that has setttled over time. That shouldn't be a problem, though as the anchors bite into the concrete and don't care what is underneath.

 

[billconner]

With picture, I think easiest and quickest is structural screws in ties. No drilling.

10 years ago or maybe less, drill and lag screw, but today the structural screw is stronger and easier.

And if it doesn't seem strong enough, remove and reinstall later. For one person use at a time, I think you will find it strong enough.

Want to be sure, mount it with top post against porch slab edge and then one anchor through post - or a strap around it - into slab edge is sure to hold it.

 

[joseywales]

With picture, I think easiest and quickest is structural screws in ties. No drilling.

10 years ago or maybe less, drill and lag screw, but today the structural screw is stronger and easier.

And if it doesn't seem strong enough, remove and reinstall later. For one person use at a time, I think you will find it strong enough.

Want to be sure, mount it with top post against porch slab edge and then one anchor through post - or a strap around it - into slab edge is sure to hold it.

Thanks. That’s exactly where my head is at. The mounting plates are welded to the rail, but I plan to run the top rail mount right up against the slab, if it all aligns correctly.

 

[billconner]

Technically you should have a guard rail at edge of porch. At least imho.

But I think you'll be fine and done fast as required by the contract.

 

[Kaizen]

Do it twice. Once with structural screws into the ties as said but i'd also sink long foot long ones in to grab the one below as no way the top layer will not rip right off if a 200 pound person hit it. Then after the holidays drill and mount into the concrete.

 

[Kaizen]

I have a good bit of experience with this and I don't think a high railing is going to work out well for you...

I have a 24" welded steel railing, mounted to tie plates lagged in with 3/4" bolts and it's all really soft.

The railing itself is stout, but when someone leans against it, there's enough leverage to roll the ties. The problem is that the ties are not very stable. In my situation, I have a short railing that will impale people if they lean on it - so folks don't mess with it much. If it was high purposed for a handrail, my ties would roll or be ripped out of place. (Even though they are tied together and into the ground with 5/8" or greater rebar.

To get something to hold in the ties, you will need lag screws. I would use at least 1/2" screws. (Regular screws will not hold.) You'll need a good drill to make the proper size pilot holes for your lag screws. If your railing is stout and secured to concrete, you might get away with a few plates on top of the ties, but the posts on the ties will still wobble.

segway.......what is up with your windows? Are you an artist? Freaking cool

 

[joseywales]

Just wrapped it up. Went with GRKs 5/16, 4". 6" would have been deeper than the top tie, and if I have to correct this, I would still have some "fresh" tie on the bottom tier. That said, these ties need to come out anyway and the entire front redone. However, for now, the rail is firmly secured to the ties. The ties, they actually move a tad, which is why I didn't want to run any deeper. You can even see the bottom tie is already showing its age (25 years?).

The rail, IMO, is a bit too high. On the steps, it was too low. The nice part is that the rail has a mid-rail, so shorter person could use that. No one will be pulling them self up. In fact, it's really just to help guide them, instead of wondering around in the middle of the landing, which is what occurred.

Hopefully no one trips over the extension cord for my lights!

Tools: Si vis pacem, para bellum (If you want peace, prepare for war). I did have my Makita corded angle drill at the ready, but.

use my M12 1/2" Hammer Drill. Used it on drill and it was ok. Switched to Hammer and it ran much easier. 8 screws in, no issue, using a Milwaukee T30. The T30 has a slight twist in one of the "spokes". I was in on an angle, so I can't blame the bit.

l

 

[Kaizen]

important thing is you "fixed" it so the wife can't be too critical if he goes over again. If this temporary fix sits for awhile you could always sink a concrete anchor through the wood into the concrete. i'm sure someone makes concrete screws that long

 

[joseywales]

important thing is you "fixed" it so the wife can't be too critical if he goes over again. If this temporary fix sits for awhile you could always sink a concrete anchor through the wood into the concrete. i'm sure someone makes concrete screws that long

Better than that. My wife helped. She can’t be critical!