In floor heat bolier type

[bmxer883]

So I have another question when it comes to boilers and in floor heat. I like the idea of the wall mount high efficiency boilers but is there any benefits to the old cast iron style?

I found a new-used cast iron boiler for 500 bucks I was thinking of getting it's only 84 efficiency. It bothers me it's only 84 even tho I get free natural gas from our well but I still like to be efficient.

Would I be smarter to pay 3-4k for a new high efficiency or save self thousands and get the used one?

Other question I have is should I run glycol I've read up on it and feel like it be better with out it but I'm in sure. I have well water so I'm going to buy distilled water to put in system then I'll tie in my well water in case it needs to refill I have high calcium in my water so don't want it all filled with it.

I have a wall mount ventless heater that keeps the garage at 50 when it's negative degrees out so that's my back up for heat so I feel I don't really need glycol endless I lose my gas well then id be screwed lol but even if some reason I lose heat with in floor heat I would have a day or two I think before stuff freezes and I could figure out something for heat in a day or two.

garage will be heated all the time to about 65 or so I'm very well insulated with spray foam and blow in ceiling garage is 1920 sq ft if that matters

 

[jack stand]

Imho, $500 is worth it to find your answer and with the efficiency of the radiant (low water temps), wouldn't that somewhat negate the desire or concern for efficiency?

 

[finn]

If you use antifreeze as a heat transfer medium, you can shut the boiler down at will in the winter and not worry about frozen and burst condensate lines.

Along that line, a building without a proper floor drain system can be problematic for disposing of the condensate in cold climates. You can’t just run the condensate out the wall. It will freeze in the pipe and back up the system.

 

[PoorUB]

With a cast iron boiler you need to keep the water temperature in the boiler above 130 degrees, we generally set them at 150 degrees, then you will need to put in a boiler loop and it's own pump and side by side tees and injection pump and preferable a temp controller for the floor loop, Tekmar has them. Then separate pump for the floor loop.

Also consider the chimney required with a cast iron boiler. Generally you can go B-vent, but it has to go straight up through the building. You can not side wall vent one with out spending more money on a side wall vent blower.

With a high efficiency boiler many come set up with their own boiler pump and built in loop so you just need to connect into the boiler with the floor loop and it's pump. Plus vents in PVC right out the side wall.

By the time you look into all the extras needed to use the cast iron boiler the high efficiency is not so out of line.

 

[bmxer883]

With a cast iron boiler you need to keep the water temperature in the boiler above 130 degrees, we generally set them at 150 degrees, then you will need to put in a boiler loop and it's own pump and side by side tees and injection pump and preferable a temp controller for the floor loop, Tekmar has them. Then separate pump for the floor loop.

Also consider the chimney required with a cast iron boiler. Generally you can go B-vent, but it has to go straight up through the building. You can not side wall vent one with out spending more money on a side wall vent blower.

With a high efficiency boiler many come set up with their own boiler pump and built in loop so you just need to connect into the boiler with the floor loop and it's pump. Plus vents in PVC right out the side wall.

By the time you look into all the extras needed to use the cast iron boiler the high efficiency is not so out of line.

Yeah definitely sounds smarter to just go with high efficiency one. I wasnt sure on the cast iron what temp you ran them so that sounds like a lot of work to make it work.

 

[bmxer883]

If you use antifreeze as a heat transfer medium, you can shut the boiler down at will in the winter and not worry about frozen and burst condensate lines.

Along that line, a building without a proper floor drain system can be problematic for disposing of the condensate in cold climates. You can’t just run the condensate out the wall. It will freeze in the pipe and back up the system.

I should never be shutting it down. I've read how glycol takes up some of the heat and also wears out the system and if it's anything like the glycol I've work with in hydraulic systems it will eat and destroy everything eventually. So that makes me not want to use it but say system did go down it would really **** to freeze a line in concrete cause I don't think you could fix it

 

[rancherbill]

I found a new-used cast iron boiler for 500 bucks I was thinking of getting it's only 84 efficiency.

Other question I have is should I run glycol I've read up on it and feel like it be better with out it but I'm in sure.

84% efficincy is not suitable for new installations. Haven't you heard about climate change. Some jurisdictions would not let you install any gas appliances.

You should definitely get antifreeze in your system. If you have a heart attack with the door open get a power outage go to the hospital you'll be f%^#ed.

My system is filled with the right stuff and it, according to the plumbing compant, conditions and system and gives longer life.

 

[finn]

I should never be shutting it down. I've read how glycol takes up some of the heat and also wears out the system and if it's anything like the glycol I've work with in hydraulic systems it will eat and destroy everything eventually. So that makes me not want to use it but say system did go down it would really **** to freeze a line in concrete cause I don't think you could fix it

I switched my shop to glycol. House is still water.

I had to pull a two year old pump at the house to fix a very minor solder joint drip. Amazed how much corrosion on the pump in such a short time. I should either drain and refill with distilled water and inhibitors or glycol . And we have pretty decent water quality

The comments about cost of piping with the std boiler compared to a high efficiency boiler are valid.

 

[PoorUB]

I should never be shutting it down. I've read how glycol takes up some of the heat and also wears out the system and if it's anything like the glycol I've work with in hydraulic systems it will eat and destroy everything eventually. So that makes me not want to use it but say system did go down it would really **** to freeze a line in concrete cause I don't think you could fix it

Glycol will not hurt the system at all, if fact just to opposite.

As far as never shutting it down. What if it fails when you are not around? Building freezes up, system freezes up and you have to bring in a temporary heat source to get the building warmed up. Don't laugh, it happens.

One farm shop on glycol, the boiler died while the owner was away. He came back to broken pipes, busted boiler, floor was frozen. How do you warm up a concrete floor when the floor heat tubing is frozen solid? We brought in temporary heaters and large fans blowing on the floor and they ran for a month before the floor thawed out enough to get a couple loops running. Then we fired up the floor heat and it slowly thawed one loop at a time and the loop around the outside wall never opened up until spring. We put glycol in it that summer and got it tuned up for winter. It cost the owner thousands of dollars and weeks of hassle where a few hundred dollars of glycol in the system would have had him up and running.

Another one we got called on, boiler died, glycol in the system. Building was below freezing, as was the floor. We fixed the boiler and had heat on in an hour, but it took a couple days to warm up the slab enough to feel any heat in the building. 4-5 days later it was back to normal. Sent him a bill for something like $200.

 

[Dagny]

The cast iron boilers we sell can vent out the wall with ss pipe. I'm sure they are improving but most hang on the wall boilers are in the dump. Look into the maintenance required before you buy. A couple months ago I put a new circulator on a boiler installed in 1956..

 

[WagonHo!]

my Weils mclain boiler is 25 yrs old. I’ve replaced the temp/pressure gauge, updated replaced 4 zone valves, aquastat,flushed the system out once. It’s a low efficiency standing pilot model and until the gas rates were doubled was very affordable. I imagine compared to furnace systems it stll is. The installation isn’t as critical as with the high efficiency condensing models very simple to maintain.

 

[bmxer883]

Glycol will not hurt the system at all, if fact just to opposite.

As far as never shutting it down. What if it fails when you are not around? Building freezes up, system freezes up and you have to bring in a temporary heat source to get the building warmed up. Don't laugh, it happens.

One farm shop on glycol, the boiler died while the owner was away. He came back to broken pipes, busted boiler, floor was frozen. How do you warm up a concrete floor when the floor heat tubing is frozen solid? We brought in temporary heaters and large fans blowing on the floor and they ran for a month before the floor thawed out enough to get a couple loops running. Then we fired up the floor heat and it slowly thawed one loop at a time and the loop around the outside wall never opened up until spring. We put glycol in it that summer and got it tuned up for winter. It cost the owner thousands of dollars and weeks of hassle where a few hundred dollars of glycol in the system would have had him up and running.

Another one we got called on, boiler died, glycol in the system. Building was below freezing, as was the floor. We fixed the boiler and had heat on in an hour, but it took a couple days to warm up the slab enough to feel any heat in the building. 4-5 days later it was back to normal. Sent him a bill for something like $200.

Have you tore apart systems that ran glycol to see what it has done? The glycol I used in hydraulic may be different but it would eat seals in pumps.
I have a back up source for heat as long as I don't lose natural gas I have ventless wall heater and natural gas torpedo heater even have a spare furnace I could have hooked up in few hours.
One other thing I read was glycol makes it harder to heat?

 

[bmxer883]

The cast iron boilers we sell can vent out the wall with ss pipe. I'm sure they are improving but most hang on the wall boilers are in the dump. Look into the maintenance required before you buy. A couple months ēago I put a new circulator on a boiler installed in 1956..

Yeah the older stuff might not be efficient but definitely out last anything new

 

[bmxer883]

84% efficincy is not suitable for new installations. Haven't you heard about climate change. Some jurisdictions would not let you install any gas appliances.

You should definitely get antifreeze in your system. If you have a heart attack with the door open get a power outage go to the hospital you'll be f%^#ed.

My system is filled with the right stuff and it, according to the plumbing compant, conditions and system and gives longer life.

What is wrong with gas??

 

[PoorUB]

Have you tore apart systems that ran glycol to see what it has done? The glycol I used in hydraulic may be different but it would eat seals in pumps.
I have a back up source for heat as long as I don't lose natural gas I have ventless wall heater and natural gas torpedo heater even have a spare furnace I could have hooked up in few hours.
One other thing I read was glycol makes it harder to heat?

Glycol lowers waters ability to transfer heat.

I worked as an HVAC service tech for years. Systems with glycol were clean inside. Systems without were generally a mess.

 

[yeldogt]

You can install conventional gas boilers. Frankly -- the old cast iron are the way to go when doing high temp emitters ... like a radiator. The return temps are so high that condensing boilers never get cold enough water.

What the boiler size ? Will need primary secondary -- only the german boilers can run colder than 140 degrees

Old cast iron boilers run for 30 40 years and outlive 3 wall units with almost zero maintenance .. love them.

 

[finn]

Radiant tubes in garage floors shouldn’t run over about 110 degrees, so an old fashioned non condensing boiler needs some sort of mixing valve to limit fluid temperature to the pex.

 

[Dagny]

It is no big deal to keep the boiler hot and the floor cooler. Whats cheaper and greener than something that last 50 years.

 

[rancherbill]

What is wrong with gas??

What !!! Burning natural gas produces CO2 it's a greenhouse gas. It's bad.

84% burn 12% more gas than a 95% efficient system. If you have to burn gas as I do, get an efficient one.

 

[jmiller_2308]

My personal experience in 2 houses with cast iron boilers and a buddy that has a high efficiency boiler and I'll take cast any day.

My cast experiences of 37 years have all been good. I run water in mine and after taking my current one down after 20+ years of running so that I could add an indirect water heater flushed the entire system and there was very little crud in it even though my water source is a well. I have had some pump, mixing valve, and zone valve maintenance but all that was fairly minor.

In contrast, my buddy bought a house with a high efficiency boiler running his in floor and the thing crapped out after being in less than 8 years. The HVAC company that serviced him said they were surprised the unit lasted that long and that they are routinely replacing them. He was in for over $10,000 by the time the HVAC company put in a new boiler and replumbed stuff to fit it.

 

[Jackfre]

If the CI is in good shape and the gas is free I’d be inclined to go with the cast at that price. Do you have room for the larger boiler and what is the firing rate on the old boiler compared to the load on the system? You will have to pipe in a by-pass to keep the return water temp high enough to not hurt the boiler. You will also want an outdoor reset control to get the best out of the system. That is likely built into the wall hung. Do a comparison of the needed components on the wall hung vs the block. The better wall hungs last but youy cannot overlook the maintenance schedule and they need to be set up properly

 

[finn]

The other reason to go with a hanging heater is to free up floor space. My boiler room was filled with a monster of an oversized Buderus oil burning boiler that cost a small fortune to run and keep running.

Going to a smaller profile high efficiency wall hung propane boiler with pvc exhaust and intake made the small boiler room a useful storage area for tools and supplies. You can actually move around in there, and the cool to the touch flue is tucked along the wall and ceiling.

Also makes room where the 250 gallon oil tank resides in the shop, or will, when I get around to draining and removing it.

 

[yeldogt]

The other reason to go with a hanging heater is to free up floor space. My boiler room was filled with a monster of an oversized Buderus oil burning boiler that cost a small fortune to run and keep running.

Going to a smaller profile high efficiency wall hung propane boiler with pvc exhaust and intake made the small boiler room a useful storage area for tools and supplies. You can actually move around in there, and the cool to the touch flue is tucked along the wall and ceiling.

Also makes room where the 250 gallon oil tank resides in the shop, or will, when I get around to draining and removing it.

The OP is talking gas ... and he must be in an area of PA where he has gas on his property. How clean is the gas ... pressure control? I'm not schooled on private gas wells .... wish I had one in my PA house.

Propane is a dirty fuel in that it can have contaminates -- some high efficiency boilers don't do as well with propane because of this. If private NG does as well -- another reason to stick with the CI. With propane Viessmann is the go to ..

Buderus Cast Iron boilers can operate at lower temps as do some other German boilers -- they can work with radiant. US type need a primary that keep the boiler hotter ... often around 140. The water out to the floor is controlled on the secondary

 

[finn]

The OP is talking gas ... and he must be in an area of PA where he has gas on his property. How clean is the gas ... pressure control? I'm not schooled on private gas wells .... wish I had one in my PA house.

Propane is a dirty fuel in that it can have contaminates -- some high efficiency boilers don't do as well with propane because of this. If private NG does as well -- another reason to stick with the CI. With propane Viessmann is the go to ..

Buderus Cast Iron boilers can operate at lower temps as do some other German boilers -- they can work with radiant. US type need a primary that keep the boiler hotter ... often around 140. The water out to the floor is controlled on the secondary

It was a happy day when I loaded that Buderus on the dump truck for its journey to the scrap yard.

 

[Bert_]

I still see a lot of cast iron boilers that were put in back in the 60's when natural gas was brought in. They just keep going.

 

[yeldogt]

It was a happy day when I loaded that Buderus on the dump truck for its journey to the scrap yard.

They make a very nice boiler .... if only oil around -- not much choice.

in a big house with high temp emitters they are the one of the best. The savings just are not there moving to a wall hung gas from a gas fired Cast Iron -- my original set up is pushing 30 years with a rely and the vent damper being the only items requiring replacement. I did two big ones in a huge stone house with three floors about 20 years ago and --- same thing ... low maintenance.

You are not going to get 96% running them at high temps ...

 

[bmxer883]

What !!! Burning natural gas produces CO2 it's a greenhouse gas. It's bad.

84% burn 12% more gas than a 95% efficient system. If you have to burn gas as I do, get an efficient one.

I understand the point of efficiency everything I have done is for efficiency i could have saved lots of money with less cheaper insulation but I wanted to be efficient I get free gas so I could have just said screw it go cheap since doesn't matter how much fuel I use..

I don't see what's so bad about natural gas there aren't many options of fuel you have wood burning, coal, fuel oil and they have c02 and electric but that is mostly generated from a fuel
Also if a cast iron burner last 40 years where new efficiency ones last 8-10 is they really efficiency in the long run??

 

[bmxer883]

The OP is talking gas ... and he must be in an area of PA where he has gas on his property. How clean is the gas ... pressure control? I'm not schooled on private gas wells .... wish I had one in my PA house.

Propane is a dirty fuel in that it can have contaminates -- some high efficiency boilers don't do as well with propane because of this. If private NG does as well -- another reason to stick with the CI. With propane Viessmann is the go to ..

Buderus Cast Iron boilers can operate at lower temps as do some other German boilers -- they can work with radiant. US type need a primary that keep the boiler hotter ... often around 140. The water out to the floor is controlled on the secondary

Yep pa well and I don't know much about the gas myself I've lived here 4 years now. I'm un sure of incoming pressure but I have it regulated to 10inwc Im worried how clean the gas is myself haven't ran into any issues with it yet.
My biggest worry is losing the well cause it doesn't make a ton of money so company doesn't take good care of it like they should. If it goes I'll be burning wood.

 

[rancherbill]

I don't see what's so bad about natural gas there aren't many options of fuel you have wood burning, coal, fuel oil and they have c02 and electric but that is mostly generated from a fuel

I agree natural gas is the best among the ones that burn things. I use natural gas for heating.

I object to doing a "new" installation with 86% efficient equipment. If you had to pay for it you wouldn't install it. I bet you have not insulated reasonably because, "Hey. I'm not paying for natural gas".

Where I live this is the second dry winter. We are in a HUGE drought. The people that know say it is because of man caused climate change.

 

[yeldogt]

I agree natural gas is the best among the ones that burn things. I use natural gas for heating.

I object to doing a "new" installation with 86% efficient equipment. If you had to pay for it you wouldn't install it. I bet you have not insulated reasonably because, "Hey. I'm not paying for natural gas".

Where I live this is the second dry winter. We are in a HUGE drought. The people that know say it is because of man caused climate change.

The only way to get above 85% is to add a secondary heat exchanger -- the flue gas goes through this exchanger and using the return water to cool it .... the flue gas will cool enough to "condense" .... that is why they are called condensing. They require a fan to force the flue gas through the burner and out the flue .. so there is some additional electric used vs an atmospheric burner that just burns and has hot enough flue to expel itself.

When you are making hot water for a house with radiators .... that's around 160 or more .... baseboard needs 180 degree. The water coming back to the boiler is too hot ... it will not cool the flue gas enough to condense. So a 96% will not get 96% and may only be matching a more conventional system. Houses are more than what is making the heat (as far as overall energy use)..... it may be better to buy better insulation ... better construction.

Conventional does not = bad and condensing does not = good when talking hot water heat

 

[bmxer883]

I agree natural gas is the best among the ones that burn things. I use natural gas for heating.

I object to doing a "new" installation with 86% efficient equipment. If you had to pay for it you wouldn't install it. I bet you have not insulated reasonably because, "Hey. I'm not paying for natural gas".

Where I live this is the second dry winter. We are in a HUGE drought. The people that know say it is because of man caused climate change.

In my last reply I said how I spent more for good insulation 3x more than I had to honestly but I try to do what's best.. I've worked in different industrial plants and they are 1000x worse than what any home owner can do furnaces to melt steel use as much gas in one day as our house would use all year they are the ones who should be held accountable for efficiency

 

[yeldogt]

Double post

 

[finn]

In my last reply I said how I spent more for good insulation 3x more than I had to honestly but I try to do what's best.. I've worked in different industrial plants and they are 1000x worse than what any home owner can do furnaces to melt steel use as much gas in one day as our house would use all year they are the ones who should be held accountable for efficiency

Believe it or not, industrial plants that use huge amounts of energy in their processes are very cognizant of their energy costs. Energy costs are what make or break a plant as far as profitability goes.

The fact is, though, that producing steel from iron ore, for example, requires energy to cause a phase change from solid to liquid. That’s physics.

 

[jmdirk]

Glycol will not hurt the system at all, if fact just to opposite.

As far as never shutting it down. What if it fails when you are not around? Building freezes up, system freezes up and you have to bring in a temporary heat source to get the building warmed up. Don't laugh, it happens.

One farm shop on glycol, the boiler died while the owner was away. He came back to broken pipes, busted boiler, floor was frozen. How do you warm up a concrete floor when the floor heat tubing is frozen solid? We brought in temporary heaters and large fans blowing on the floor and they ran for a month before the floor thawed out enough to get a couple loops running. Then we fired up the floor heat and it slowly thawed one loop at a time and the loop around the outside wall never opened up until spring. We put glycol in it that summer and got it tuned up for winter. It cost the owner thousands of dollars and weeks of hassle where a few hundred dollars of glycol in the system would have had him up and running.

Another one we got called on, boiler died, glycol in the system. Building was below freezing, as was the floor. We fixed the boiler and had heat on in an hour, but it took a couple days to warm up the slab enough to feel any heat in the building. 4-5 days later it was back to normal. Sent him a bill for something like $200.

In that first case, did you mean to say the farm shop was on water? If it was on glycol it's shouldn't have froze up so bad no? Or wasa the gylcol not mixed properly? Or old?

 

[Sumboodie]

With a cast iron boiler you need to keep the water temperature in the boiler above 130 degrees, we generally set them at 150 degrees, then you will need to put in a boiler loop and it's own pump and side by side tees and injection pump and preferable a temp controller for the floor loop, Tekmar has them. Then separate pump for the floor loop.

Also consider the chimney required with a cast iron boiler. Generally you can go B-vent, but it has to go straight up through the building. You can not side wall vent one with out spending more money on a side wall vent blower.

With a high efficiency boiler many come set up with their own boiler pump and built in loop so you just need to connect into the boiler with the floor loop and it's pump. Plus vents in PVC right out the side wall.

By the time you look into all the extras needed to use the cast iron boiler the high efficiency is not so out of line.

My cast iron Burham was side vented orginally.
I tore it out and vented it through the roof, the side vent was on the back patio near my bedroom. Got tired of the noise and smell.
Us the wind was blowing the exhaust into the attic at times.

 

[rancherbill]

...they are the ones who should be held accountable for efficiency

How do you eat an elephant - One bite at a time. Everything counts

 

[rancherbill]

The only way to get above 85% is to add a secondary heat exchanger...

The first post talks about a high efficiency unit versus his deal on a $500 unit.

He's just thinking just about initial cost and is leaning towards the 85% unit.

 

[bmxer883]

Believe it or not, industrial plants that use huge amounts of energy in their processes are very cognizant of their energy costs. Energy costs are what make or break a plant as far as profitability goes.

The fact is, though, that producing steel from iron ore, for example, requires energy to cause a phase change from solid to liquid. That’s phys

Not in the plants I've worked at the product makes a lot of money so they don't care much about small price of energy but getting off topic anyways just my experience in the field

 

[bmxer883]

The first post talks about a high efficiency unit versus his deal on a $500 unit.

He's just thinking just about initial cost and is leaning towards the 85% unit.

So yeah I'm trying save a few bucks I was quoted 7k for a boiler to be installed and up and running well I'd rather do it my self and right now it seems like everywhere is out of stock on stuff so figured I'd see about used stuff since it be cheaper anyways..

I know have found a weil mclain aqua balance 75 btu boiler combo one year old for 1800 I'm considering on buying they had it in a 500sqft camp and was way to big for it so they took it out.

 

[finn]

Not in the plants I've worked at the product makes a lot of money so they don't care much about small price of energy but getting off topic anyways just my experience in the field

If that’s true, your job will be heading overseas pretty soon.

Your plant’s competition is working on ways to reduce costs. Complacency isn’t a good business plan.