Mueller Building engineered to IBC 2012 - County requires IRC 2015 dillema

[quakerj]

I'm been in contact with Mueller buildings regarding their 30x50 standard series kit. They're unable to provide any detailed drawings until I actually commit to purchasing the building and provide the down payment. The only thing they were able to offer me that I can run by my county zoning/planning department (to ensure I can obtain a permit) was generic engineering details. They simply state the building is engineered to IBC 2012, and they give load specifications (wind/snow/etc.)

I chatted with the fella from the county that does the building inspections and he states the building would have to adhere to IRC 2015 standards, or they'd have to have full drawings to review before they can approve the permit. That puts me in a bit of a pickle because I can't commit to the building without knowing whether or not it would meet the requirements-- the fella told me that it'd be a gamble and might require modifications once they review the plans, if I went ahead and purchased a building engineered to IBC-2012 without knowing for sure it would meet the requirements for IRC-2015.

I'm not confident Mueller will be much help as this is one of the most basic kits they pump out that have little or no customization options. I'm going to E-mail the sales guy from Mueller and see what I come up with.

My question for you all, is, has anyone else ever encountered this, or familiar with these codes and what might differ between the two? I can only assume these steel frame buildings would be far and away stronger than most of the cheap pole barns I see put up around here.

 

[BillK]

I'm going to E-mail the sales guy from Mueller and see what I come up with.

My suggestion is that you pick up your phone and actually talk to the guy. I would explain the situation to him exactly as you just posted and tell him that if he wants you to buy a building then you need the plans first to make sure your county will approve them. Pretty simple if you ask me. No plans, no sale !

 

[WNYflyer]

Make sure everyone is understanding the correct code to use as in the IBC (International Building Code) versus the IRC (International Residential Building Code). Structurally wise at least I would venture to guess a Mueller type building would fall under your locally adopted state version of the IBC rather than your states version of the IRC.

Link below, click on your state for adopted versions of the codes and verify with your local building official.

https://www.iccsafe.org/wp-content/uploads/Code_Adoption_Maps.pdf

 

[liliysdad]

There is no way a company is going to release a set of engineered prints for free. Not gonna happen.

 

[quakerj]

My suggestion is that you pick up your phone and actually talk to the guy. I would explain the situation to him exactly as you just posted and tell him that if he wants you to buy a building then you need the plans first to make sure your county will approve them. Pretty simple if you ask me. No plans, no sale !

This is wishful thinking. As the above poster suggested, they won't release engineered prints without a purchase/sales contract. The construction / building industry is hardly hurting for work these days, I doubt they'll budge. Hopefully Mueller can at least clear up any misunderstanding if the guy from my county is interpreting the wrong code, or if the building engineering surpasses the residential code my county is looking for.

I have a feeling my rural county deals mostly with pole barns and are not used to semi-commercial type steel buildings, even though it will look identical on the outside to the pole barns that are constructed all over the place here. I've been inside some recently built ones and I can't fathom why a Mueller building would not meet specs that those buildings do.

 

[WNYflyer]

I just looked at the Mueller catalog and if I am understanding the building kit you are looking at indeed they say the building will be designed to IBC 2012. Designing to IBC 2012 doesn't make much sense since many states have adopted IBC 2018 while others like yours may still be at IBC 2015...........unless of course the don't want to sell any of those kits. .
I bet if you talk to Mueller's actual engineering department rather sales folks you will get the correct scoop on what codes they can design those kits to. Good luck!

 

[FredWanaker]

I can't answer the question but one thing I think I see going on here from a layman's eyes is that the building appears built to commercial standards, and the building dept is wanting residential standards. is the property zoned residential? The answer the building dept gave may within itself give some clues on what question to ask next. If the property is say zoned AG, or Mixed Use, the plans needed may be different than for a residential lot. I'd have a longer talk with the county to make sure that they will even consider a commercial building on a residential lot if that is what it is. Their only answer may be a cop out which is that it needs to be built to residential codes to be on a residential lot, and Mueller may say they don't build residential buildings, only commercial. Just thinking out loud. Probably need more into.

 

[quakerj]

I just looked at the Mueller catalog and if I am understanding the building kit you are looking at indeed they say the building will be designed to IBC 2012. Designing to IBC 2012 doesn't make much sense since many states have adopted IBC 2018 while others like yours may still be at IBC 2015...........unless of course the don't want to sell any of those kits. .
I bet if you talk to Mueller's actual engineering department rather sales folks you will get the correct scoop on what codes they can design those kits to. Good luck!

I'll try to contact them by phone and see if I can get a hold of someone in engineering.

My state (KY) is currently at IBC/IRC 2015, but the inspector said they are transitioning to 2018 soon. This is an obstacle I didn't plan on

 

[Mr.zippy]

For some of the requirements, like snow load and wind speeds, probably did not change within code versions. Maybe the County can take that into account. Most of the code changes over the years have been things such as insulation, fire suppression and “green” requirements.

 

[quakerj]

For some of the requirements, like snow load and wind speeds, probably did not change within code versions. Maybe the County can take that into account. Most of the code changes over the years have been things such as insulation, fire suppression and “green” requirements.

I've studied the code requirements for IBR/IBC 2015 as it pertains to wind speed rating / snow loads / live loads. The Mueller building exceeds the requirement for the county I live in.

For example, required wind speed and snow load rating for Meade County, KY is 115mph and 15lb respectively. The Mueller building is rated 140mph and 20 lb.

I really think the county inspector needs to think outside the box, but hopefully Mueller can chime in with something helpful. Perhaps the reason they didn't re-engineer the buildings to 2015 is that they already meet them. That's about all I can hope for right now. If not, I'm changing directions and going pole frame building, like everyone else does in my area.

 

[Half-fast eddie]

but the inspector said they are transitioning to 2018 soon.

If they are currently under 2015 and the county website does not show formal adoption of 2018 codes as of *** date ... they cannot prevent you from building under the old code.

 

[Mr.zippy]

I agree, if the structural design components exceed the newer 15 codes, that should be all that matters.

 

[billconner]

A metal building or post frame built to IRC will be same as built to IBC. IRC doesn't include the prescriptive requirements for such structures and simply says engineered do IBC requirements are used.

If you haven't signed a contract for building, simply make meeting the 2015 edition a part of contract. I doubt changes are significant.

 

[quakerj]

A metal building or post frame built to IRC will be same as built to IBC. IRC doesn't include the prescriptive requirements for such structures and simply says engineered do IBC requirements are used.

If you haven't signed a contract for building, simply make meeting the 2015 edition a part of contract. I doubt changes are significant.

That's very helpful, and pretty much what I gathered doing some Google searches. IRC seems to pertain to residential dwellings up to a certain size, but IBC covers the rest. I'll post back once I get a response from Mueller, certainly they've run into this situation before as most localities are requiring IBC/IRC 2015 and many into the 2018 edition already.

 

[ybnormal]

If they are currently under 2015 and the county website does not show formal adoption of 2018 codes as of *** date ... they cannot prevent you from building under the old code.

website update is irrelevant. since it's governmental they would have had to approve the codes and then post the relevant notices in their offices. I've seen to many out of date website with lots of old webpages they didn't delete but are still getting indexed by Google, etc

 

[ybnormal]

That's very helpful, and pretty much what I gathered doing some Google searches. IRC seems to pertain to residential dwellings up to a certain size, but IBC covers the rest. I'll post back once I get a response from Mueller, certainly they've run into this situation before as most localities are requiring IBC/IRC 2015 and many into the 2018 edition already.

if push comes to shove, ask Mueller if they will put an addendum in the sales contract that stipulates the purchase is null and void if it does not meet building codes for the intended site location. if they won't do that then they are not someone I'd want to do business with and I'd be looking at other builders.

 

[quakerj]

if push comes to shove, ask Mueller if they will put an addendum in the sales contract that stipulates the purchase is null and void if it does not meet building codes for the intended site location. if they won't do that then they are not someone I'd want to do business with and I'd be looking at other builders.

Mueller will absolutely build a building to local codes, as will any other "builders."

You seem to be mistaking the kind of building I'm buying-- which is a low priced kit that they offer. Low price does not imply low quality, rather it essentially means that you get what you get, a building that's engineered to IBC-2012 and whatever ratings for wind/snow that they offer.

They would gladly build me a building rated to whatever code I choose, but that adds customization, engineering, and assorted other expenses I'd rather avoid.

Custom steel frame buildings this size (I've got plenty of quotes in hand) range from $25-35k. I can buy their pre-engineered basic kit just shy of $18k. That's what I'm trying to make work. I'll see what strings I can pull, but the kits are inexpensive for a reason, because there's no engineering or customization involved. I have to be realistic here.

 

[ybnormal]

Mueller will absolutely build a building to local codes, as will any other "builders."

You seem to be mistaking the kind of building I'm buying-- which is a low priced kit that they offer. Low price does not imply low quality, rather it essentially means that you get what you get, a building that's engineered to IBC-2012 and whatever ratings for wind/snow that they offer.

They would gladly build me a building rated to whatever code I choose, but that adds customization, engineering, and assorted other expenses I'd rather avoid.

Custom steel frame buildings this size (I've got plenty of quotes in hand) range from $25-35k. I can buy their pre-engineered basic kit just shy of $18k. That's what I'm trying to make work. I'll see what strings I can pull, but the kits are inexpensive for a reason, because there's no engineering or customization involved. I have to be realistic here.

um, I understand EXACTLY the kind of building you are buying and the process you are going through of trying to reconcile what Mueller is saying about their standards versus what the county is demanding.

To make it very clear, ask the county for a list of the standards they require. Take that list and forward to Mueller, asking them "does this building I want to buy meet these standards?". if it does, great, please send documentation to that effect that I can show the county. I will sign a contract to that effect IF this building is approved by my county for the intended purpose. I will also need a copy of engineered drawings for the county to put their stamp on.

if it does not meet the standards, is there anything Mueller can do to make t meet the standard? if not, new builder. if yes, then what will it cost me in the form of upgrades, customizations, etc?

 

[Half-fast eddie]

website update is irrelevant. since it's governmental they would have had to approve the codes and then post the relevant notices in their offices.

you are correct. I would still start with their website and see what is posted,then for insurance inwould go through meeting minutes of the monthly city council meetings.

 

[billconner]

That's very helpful, and pretty much what I gathered doing some Google searches. IRC seems to pertain to residential dwellings up to a certain size, but IBC covers the rest. I'll post back once I get a response from Mueller, certainly they've run into this situation before as most localities are requiring IBC/IRC 2015 and many into the 2018 edition already.

IRC is one and two family dwellings. It is mostly prescriptive requirements for stick built and masonry houses and detached accessory structures. No architect or engineer required for the stick and masonry buildings. As soon as you get to red iron, post frame, etc., a registered design professional usually is required. If you submit drawings sealed by an engineer that say 2012, I'd guess it's a toss up. In my jurisdiction, I think building official would accept them. In in a jam with plenty of catch 22s. If Mueller lists the things like snow and wind on the drawings, the building official should be able to evaluate.

Foundations can be an issue if Mueller doesn't detail but IRC prescriptive requirements might be fine and your concrete contractor can design.

 

[Professor Fate]

Most Building Departments will require that the plans be clearly marked which version of the building code that they comply with. If it is not the current code the Building Department uses it is usually grounds for them to deny the permit.

 

[billconner]

I'll look for a 2012 to 2015 "what changed" download on ICCSAFE. I know my changes in that time would not affect you. Building departments vary. The more rural the more accommodating in my experience.

 

[FMB4]

There was a very similar thread recently that had no definitive ending. I'd recommend that you look into hiring a contractor that can iron out all the code issues and then construct your building rather than dealing with some 'pay upfront now' only to be denied later outfit.

 

[larry_g]

When I built my building I wanted to avoid just this problem. So as part of the price of the building I had the building company procure the building permit since they did this all the time and had the engineering staff to answer all the questions from the county. The building kit was delivered with the permit and approved plans from the county. We took it from there.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[brownbagg]

most county will carry the older building codes as long as possible due to price of books, but they is very minor different between codes, i think they come out every five years, all different codes have different cycles.

so first what i would do is see what different between the years. some code will sell a adenmend that just have the changes, that you add to the older code. ibc will override irc, so if your building will meet the current ibc, its done.

 

[reader2580]

Maybe Mueller is offering the inexpensive building to get you hooked knowing that few jurisdictions still use the 2012 building code. They may intentionally only offer it with 2012 approval to get you to upgrade for more money to the building that does meet code.

 

[Hobby_Man22]

I'd just wait until they update the codes.

 

[quakerj]

Maybe Mueller is offering the inexpensive building to get you hooked knowing that few jurisdictions still use the 2012 building code. They may intentionally only offer it with 2012 approval to get you to upgrade for more money to the building that does meet code.

That pretty much sums up the response I received from Mueller.

He says their custom buildings are all engineered to IBC 2015 and/or 2018, but their "kits" are only engineered to IBC 2012. That tells me they use the kits to upsell, or only sell them to remote areas with little or no code enforcement / zoning regulations. I live in a pretty rural area, but my county simply defers to what the state says. There's some counties further out (even more rural) that have no zoning or enforcement, and people pretty much put up whatever they want, and the important part, nobody complains. I suspect those are Mueller's kit customers.

I also noticed that they sell a value+ kit which uses lighter gauge steel, lower wind speed & snow load ratings, BUT engineered to IBC 2018. That building is more expensive (to the tune of $4k), which speaks volumes.

I made it clear to them that if they are able to certify the building / stamp drawings to meet IBC/IRC 2015 (I see no reason why they can't, but I'm no engineer) I'll buy from them, even if it entails a modest engineering fee. If not, I'll have to change directions and probably do something local. Mueller is unique in that they offer low price pre-engineered kits, whereas most other red iron manufacturers seem to customize the building for your local codes-- while that's great, it's a service they charge dearly for.

I'm not complaining, just trying to save money where possible. Still waiting to hear back from Mueller's engineering team to see what the outcome will be.

 

[quakerj]

Foundations can be an issue if Mueller doesn't detail but IRC prescriptive requirements might be fine and your concrete contractor can design.

Mueller doesn't provide drawing or any help for the foundation. My local concrete contractor says he just needs to propose something, and have me run it by the building department. We're going with 1 ft wide x 2 ft deep footers (he will suggest a rebar layout), and 30x50 6" slab. He thinks that will pass their requirements with flying colors. He's done work in the county for 40-some years, so I trust his judgement.

 

[billconner]

Here is a comparison of IBC2012 and 2015. I don't think there is anything that will affect your building. Hopefully you can make that case to the building department. http://media.iccsafe.org/Annual/2015/2015IBC-Update.pdf

 

[quakerj]

Called my Mueller sales rep today and he was quite helpful. He sent me a set of preliminary drawings (meaning no engineer stamp) on the IBC 2012 rated standard kit building.

He also offered to quote me a comparable 30x50 "custom" building, but engineered to IBC 2015. Since it was custom, I asked him to enlarge the door to 16x8 instead of 12x10; I'd prefer the double width door. He was warning me early on in our conversations that custom buildings were quite a bit more expensive. Final price difference between custom IBC 2015 and the standard IBC 2012 building? FIVE whole dollars.

The caveat is that the "custom" building is rated only for my county's requirements as it pertains to wind speed rating, snow loads, etc. No more, no less. Specifically, that's 115mph wind, 15 PSI snow load. It's still a red iron building, but the standard IBC 2012 kit has a 140mph wind rating, 20 PSI snow load. Seems like a step backward with the custom building, so I think I'd still prefer the standard kit even with the smaller door I can't customize. Heavier duty steel I imagine.

I called the county building inspector about it, and he still insists that the county defers to the state's adoption of IRC-2015 (residential code), but offered to take a look at the plans, and would note any discrepancies where the building/plans would not meet the IRC code. He said if all looks good and meets IRC code, he's satisfied. I think he's confused / being a stick in the mud, because I've studied the differences in IRC/IBC and I cannot tell how the IRC code would make any difference at all to an accessory building like the garage/workshop I'm building. Even the Mueller rep was confused, as he said he only encounters an IRC requirement when they're building a metal building that someone is actually living in-- like a barndominium.

I digress; I'm going to send both proposals/plans to him and see if either or both pass his test. I can't fathom why either building wouldn't be permissible-- I pass all the zoning regulations where I live, so he's primarily looking at structural stuff, I think. He also said my 1' x 24" deep footers (he called them a grade beam) was probably overkill, but the best way of doing the foundation, so I'm set there.

 

[liliysdad]

These sorts of threads remind me how thankful I am to live in a small town with zero requirements.

When I had my shop built....submitted a survey, rough sketch of location, and paid my permit. Done and done. No inspections, no drama.

I feel for you guys.

 

[quakerj]

These sorts of threads remind me how thankful I am to live in a small town with zero requirements.

When I had my shop built....submitted a survey, rough sketch of location, and paid my permit. Done and done. No inspections, no drama.

I feel for you guys.

The thought had crossed my mind more than once of selling the house and moving one county over if these guys were going to be total jerks.

15 miles away in the county west of us (and many others in KY), they have no zoning regulations, code enforcement, etc. Apply for permit, submit site plan (sketch on graph paper suffices) and you're good to go. I'm jealous. I'm in a rural area, but close enough to semi-populated areas that I have to deal with this stuff.

So far this guy seems to be working with me. Can't really complain, though he takes every opportunity he gets to educate me, though I feel after 2 solid weeks of researching, I might know more about the requirements than he does. I can tell he's one of those people though that if you let him do his spiel and listen along, he enjoys it and is actually quite helpful. Probably not one of those guys you want to argue with if you want him to accept anything that deviates from X, Y, Z.

 

[WNYflyer]

Congratulations on taking the bull by the horns and communicating with the building vendor enough such that it looks like you have a very good handle on the situation. If you can get to talk to the right person at the vendors more often than not they are very helpful as you have seen. Always nice to see two folks being able to communicate intelligently and pretty much understand each other and be on the same wavelength.

Only thing I would point out is typically a one story steel red-frame building or what I call a pre-engineered metal building will be quite lightweight relative to its size. Due to their relatively light weight often wind forces applied to the foundation by the columns are often of major concern and in particular uplift and shears on column bases and anchor bolts. The building vendor will supply column base reactions with the final stamped package and there is typically a big note on the drawings saying "Foundations Design By Others" ! or something to that effect to let you know they want nothing to do with that thus the foundation system will have to be designed for the reactions by a qualified party. The reason I bring wind forces up is if the vendor supplies a building designed for a wind speed of 140 mph rather than the 115 mph then the wind forces on the 140 mph building will be on the order of approximately 50% more than a 115 mph building and this may have an effect on the cost of the foundation. Wind forces generally vary with the square of the MPH..i.e. 140^2/115^2=1.48. Also make sure that vendor and building official are on the same page as far as the buildings "Exposure Category" used for the design.

 

[quakerj]

Only thing I would point out is typically a one story steel red-frame building or what I call a pre-engineered metal building will be quite lightweight relative to its size. Due to their relatively light weight often wind forces applied to the foundation by the columns are often of major concern and in particular uplift and shears on column bases and anchor bolts. The building vendor will supply column base reactions with the final stamped package and there is typically a big note on the drawings saying "Foundations Design By Others" ! or something to that effect to let you know they want nothing to do with that thus the foundation system will have to be designed for the reactions by a qualified party. The reason I bring wind forces up is if the vendor supplies a building designed for a wind speed of 140 mph rather than the 115 mph then the wind forces on the 140 mph building will be on the order of approximately 50% more than a 115 mph building and this may have an effect on the cost of the foundation. Wind forces generally vary with the square of the MPH..i.e. 140^2/115^2=1.48. Also make sure that vendor and building official are on the same page as far as the buildings "Exposure Category" used for the design.

That is very good to know about the foundation requirements, I will look into that some more. I suppose the building department / inspector (seems like a one man operation here) will take issue with it, if my proposed 6" slab (4000 PSI w/ wire mesh), and 1' x 2' deep footers aren't satisfactory? I didn't notice any column base reactions on the preliminary drawings that Mueller sent me.

I would need an exposure category "c" where I live (due to open fields around me on all sides), which both building types cover.

 

[brownbagg]

deleted

 

[FredWanaker]

sad. My ggg grandfather Capt Billy Bush settled KY with Daniel Boone. They said, we'll put the house here and the barn there.

 

[liliysdad]

county without code enforcement, there are some stupid people out there that will never have the smarts to build a half way safe building, the code not the problem, its the revenue dept

Believe it or not, folks in large portions of the country get along just fine without code enforcement and onerous building and utility code restrictions.

 

[quakerj]

Great news fellas, the county building inspector gave me the go ahead on either building design-- the standard IBC 2012 or the custom building engineered to IBC 2015. That creates another dilemma since the prices are so close.

The custom building allows me to specify a larger framed opening to accommodate a double-wide door which is my preference. The downside is the custom building has lower windspeed ratings, snow load ratings, etc. so is likely has lighter gauge structural members (all wall panels are 26 gauge for both building types). In other words, the custom building is spec for my county requirements, no more, no less. The standard kit surpasses those requirements by a good bit.

I'm going to have a chat with the Mueller rep to see if I should be concerned about that and see if he can give me more details on how the two designs differ structurally.

 

[Golden_Era_Enthusiast]

Great news fellas, the county building inspector gave me the go ahead on either building design-- the standard IBC 2012 or the custom building engineered to IBC 2015. That creates another dilemma since the prices are so close.

The custom building allows me to specify a larger framed opening to accommodate a double-wide door which is my preference. The downside is the custom building has lower windspeed ratings, snow load ratings, etc. so is likely has lighter gauge structural members (all wall panels are 26 gauge for both building types). In other words, the custom building is spec for my county requirements, no more, no less. The standard kit surpasses those requirements by a good bit.

I'm going to have a chat with the Mueller rep to see if I should be concerned about that and see if he can give me more details on how the two designs differ structurally.

What did you end up doing?