Wall Electrical Outlets

[Rich M.]

My house is 60 years old and the wall receptacles are a mixture of two and three prong outlets.

I have several of the two prong outlets that need to be replaced. I pulled the recepticale out just to take a peak to avoid any surprises. It appears the incoming and out-going ground wires have been attached to the box, so the box is grounded. I will still check with a meter. No other surprises.

I know the new replacement receptacle must be tamper resistant and in my case self grounding.

My question is about the other receptacles that do not meet the new NEC codes, do I have to change them out to meet the codes before I would sell my house? My guess the receptacles would be grandfathered in until I remodeled or made a change. Sound right?

 

[Rich M.]

A follow-up opinion needed. The wife wants the receptacles to be tan/beige to match the walls. Now I am more of going with white because I know at some point the wall color will change and my guess her choice of color will no longer match her current thought.

Anyone else have this discussion?

 

[My Old Tools]

Your house has to meet the codes of the year it was built or remodeled. They only get updated on a remodel if it touches that area, i.e. wiring additions, etc. You do not have to upgrade an old house to sell it. The buyers get to decide if that is ok. If not, they can upgrade it themselves or move on to another property.

 

[nadogail]

IMHO, you are not required to bring the whole house to code; just the new work.

 

[Shiftless]

IMHO, you are not required to bring the whole house to code; just the new work.

Agreed
Does changing out a receptacle count as “new work” which would trigger a needed upgrade to current code for that circuit? I certainly hope not!
(My local ACE hardware store carries 2 slot receptacles.)

If you extend an existing circuit with one extra receptacle or ceiling light fixture, would that trigger the need to upgrade everything else on that circuit all the way back to the breaker box?

 

[aandpdan]

Your question is best answered by the local AHJ. The correct answer depends upon what year of the National Electric Code you are under.

But in recent years, the NEC has required that replacement receptacles be tamper resistant depending upon where it is located. Your 2 prong receptacles, non-grounding, were exempted.

NEC 406.4(D)(5)

 

[mike93lx]

Replacing a current 2 prong receptacle with a new 2 prong is silly, IMO. If they have to be replaced, put in a 3 prong.

That said, if you are selling it, I would leave them alone and let it be a negotiating point in the inspection, if one is even done. I sold a house last year and most of the offers waived the inspection completely. The buyers didn't even have one done for informational purposes only.

 

[ycgoat]

In a sellers market, I expect ^^^ is spot on. That being said a lot of people want to stage the house for maximum profit. If you do change them out and there is a ground in the box a 3 prong modern outlet is fine (I would extend the ground to the outlet). If no ground You could use GFCI outlets and even use 3 prong outlets if the down stream outlets tied to the load side of the first GFCI in the string (the 3 prong ungrounded GFCI protected outlets would need a label saying GFCI protected.) At least that was to code 10 years ago.

 

[mike93lx]

In a sellers market, I expect ^^^ is spot on. That being said a lot of people want to stage the house for maximum profit. If you do change them out and there is a ground in the box a 3 prong modern outlet is fine (I would extend the ground to the outlet). If no ground You could use GFCI outlets and even use 3 prong outlets if the down stream outlets tied to the load side of the first GFCI in the string (the 3 prong ungrounded GFCI protected outlets would need a label saying GFCI protected.) At least that was to code 10 years ago.

Very, very few people are going to notice receptacles in a 15-20 minute walk though. Getting the space decluttered and clean is what matters.

Bathrooms and kitchens sell houses.

 

[engineer2]

When we sold our parent's house is was a buyers market. The buyer's realtor demanded we update the 1963 kitchen outlets to current code using a licensed electrician. It was about 2 hours of work, $100 in 20A breakers, GFCI's and 12ga wire, and $50 plus a 12 pack of beer for the relative who was an electrician.

It might be wise to replace all the old receptacles anyway. Some of that ancient plastic in the outlets might be quite brittle. Also check to make sure no wire insulation is crumbling, but that's more common where it has been exposed to heat, like in ceiling light fixtures.

 

[FMB4]

Very, very few people are going to notice receptacles in a 15-20 minute walk though.

But home inspectors might. GFIC receptacles in the kitchen and bath(s) are always a good sign. Such may not 'required' per local codes, but they're a good thing to see nonetheless. That said, never ever bid on a real estate purchase based on '15-20 minute walk through'. Not ever. Always make it very clear that your purchase offer is based on what your home inspections come up with. And yes, always have at least 2 home inspections performed. And never ever on any home inspection outfit that's recommended by either RE agent.

 

[PoorUB]

Replacing a current 2 prong receptacle with a new 2 prong is silly, IMO. If they have to be replaced, put in a 3 prong.

I believe it should be clarified that as long as you have a proper ground wire to connect to then put in a three prong outlet.

When we bough our house it had a mix of two and three prong. I never paid much attention to it, but one day I had to replace a three prong outlet and there was no ground wire, just the old two wire from when the house was built in the 50s. That discovery got me to buy a outlet tester and replace a few outlets. We still have a mix of two and three prong, but at least they are properly wired!

 

[Buckaroo5]

When I was doing a corporate relocation some time ago, my company had the house I was moving out of inspected as they were a partner in the real estate deal. The inspector noted my old two wire, knob and tube wiring in the dry areas of the house and said the first floor had to be upgraded to a grounded circuit as it was easily accessible from the open basement ceiling. I had recently had an electrician out to give me a quote on doing the whole house and he had told me that there was nothing wrong with my knob and tube as no one had scabbed into it to provide another outlet. I relayed that to the inspector and pointed out that the electrical did not have to meet current code, only the code when the house was built (1927) as those circuits had not been modified. He grumbled and went away.

 

[n8n]

My understanding is that *IF* you replace a receptacle, and the circuit is grounded, you must use a grounding type receptacle. The new receptacle also in most cases must be tamper resistant. Other than that, unless your local AHJ requires it, you do not need to bring the whole room or house up to current code. Otherwise, you'd have to ensure that everything is grounded, replace ALL (or most) receptacles, install GFCIs and AFCIs, make sure you have the required 20A counter recep circuits for the kitchen and bathroom(s), etc. etc. etc. and likely at some point you'd have to pull a permit for the work. Don't over think this just do a good job replacing the receps and you will be fine.

Now, as to the color thing, I can't help you there LOL you are on your own.

One thing you may want to think about is cover plates; if your house is of "a certain age" it probably has mismatched cover plates everywhere, decide what you want now (preferably something readily available) and standardize on that so that your place will look neater when you're done. I am currently using white enameled steel standard size Mulberry plates in my current place but that's just my preference there are plenty of other good choices out there. (I am currently replacing all the receptacles in three rooms in the basement as they are very wobbly, and the covers are getting replaced because they all have about 20 layers of paint on them. It's fun trying to get the plate off of the receptacle when they're painted on that badly, at least I can just break the plastic ones. Protip: using a razor blade to cut the paint around the old plate means it doesn't look *too* bad if you're not repainting right away.)

Additional thoughts on your situation: if you buy "spec grade" receptacles like these

Leviton 15 Amp 125 V Commercial Grade Tamper Resistant Duplex Outlet/Receptacle, White (1-Pack) TCBR1-W R52-TCBR1-00W - The Home Depot

Leviton is committed to your safety and to making sure our tamper-resistant commercial spec grade receptacles meet or exceed all existing codes and standards. NEC requirements for commercial facilities

www.homedepot.com

these have some features that may make your life easier. First, the screws have these little captive washers under them so you can actually put two wires under one screw head and you don't have to loop them. I really like this because it does not rely on the breakaway tab for feed through like your current receptacles probably do, you don't need pigtails and the resultant wire nuts taking up space in the box (unless you've got an Edison, aka shared neutral multiwire branch, circuit, then you MUST pigtail the neutral) and I'm sure you know why you shouldn't be using backstabs. I just snip snip the wires from the old receptacle, strip, and install. Also, these are self grounding so if you have metal boxes you don't need to make up a pigtail for the ground if it isn't already there. One thing I would watch for though is that I've seen a lot of ground wires that are just twisted together with no wire nut or solder, I don't like that, I would definitely keep some yellow nuts on hand in case you run into that scenario, I feel much more secure in the ground connection if the ground wires are wire nutted together like any other conductor.

 

[n8n]

Agreed
Does changing out a receptacle count as “new work” which would trigger a needed upgrade to current code for that circuit? I certainly hope not!
(My local ACE hardware store carries 2 slot receptacles.)

If you extend an existing circuit with one extra receptacle or ceiling light fixture, would that trigger the need to upgrade everything else on that circuit all the way back to the breaker box?

To your first question, no, that does not trigger a code upgrade BUT you MUST use a grounding receptacle if there is a ground present. 2 wire receptacles are only permitted where there is no ground present. The new receptacle itself must also meet current code, which means with very few exceptions it must be tamper resistant.

I would expect in most cases/locations any work beyond a one for one device replacement WOULD require the entire circuit to be brought up to code which would likely mean the addition of an AFCI breaker. That could range from a simple breaker replacement to opening up a whole can of worms that we don't want to get into, depending on what the existing panel is, whether the entire circuit is properly grounded, etc.

 

[reader2580]

Replacing a current 2 prong receptacle with a new 2 prong is silly, IMO. If they have to be replaced, put in a 3 prong.

Never replace a 2 prong receptacle with a 3 prong receptacle without either properly grounding it or installing a GFCI in the circuit.

 

[FMB4]

Never replace a 2 prong receptacle with a 3 prong receptacle without either properly grounding it or installing a GFCI in the circuit.

The above should be written stone.

 

[mike93lx]

Never replace a 2 prong receptacle with a 3 prong receptacle without either properly grounding it or installing a GFCI in the circuit.

No argument there, thanks for adding that clarification

 

[GirchyGirchy]

Just replace them. And use a color that looks good with the rest of the trim...it's not the 1970s we're not matching outlets/switches to wall colors.

 

[Rich M.]

My understanding is that *IF* you replace a receptacle, and the circuit is grounded, you must use a grounding type receptacle. The new receptacle also in most cases must be tamper resistant. Other than that, unless your local AHJ requires it, you do not need to bring the whole room or house up to current code. Otherwise, you'd have to ensure that everything is grounded, replace ALL (or most) receptacles, install GFCIs and AFCIs, make sure you have the required 20A counter recep circuits for the kitchen and bathroom(s), etc. etc. etc. and likely at some point you'd have to pull a permit for the work. Don't over think this just do a good job replacing the receps and you will be fine.

Now, as to the color thing, I can't help you there LOL you are on your own.

One thing you may want to think about is cover plates; if your house is of "a certain age" it probably has mismatched cover plates everywhere, decide what you want now (preferably something readily available) and standardize on that so that your place will look neater when you're done. I am currently using white enameled steel standard size Mulberry plates in my current place but that's just my preference there are plenty of other good choices out there. (I am currently replacing all the receptacles in three rooms in the basement as they are very wobbly, and the covers are getting replaced because they all have about 20 layers of paint on them. It's fun trying to get the plate off of the receptacle when they're painted on that badly, at least I can just break the plastic ones. Protip: using a razor blade to cut the paint around the old plate means it doesn't look *too* bad if you're not repainting right away.)

Additional thoughts on your situation: if you buy "spec grade" receptacles like these

Leviton 15 Amp 125 V Commercial Grade Tamper Resistant Duplex Outlet/Receptacle, White (1-Pack) TCBR1-W R52-TCBR1-00W - The Home Depot

Leviton is committed to your safety and to making sure our tamper-resistant commercial spec grade receptacles meet or exceed all existing codes and standards. NEC requirements for commercial facilities

www.homedepot.com

these have some features that may make your life easier. First, the screws have these little captive washers under them so you can actually put two wires under one screw head and you don't have to loop them. I really like this because it does not rely on the breakaway tab for feed through like your current receptacles probably do, you don't need pigtails and the resultant wire nuts taking up space in the box (unless you've got an Edison, aka shared neutral multiwire branch, circuit, then you MUST pigtail the neutral) and I'm sure you know why you shouldn't be using backstabs. I just snip snip the wires from the old receptacle, strip, and install. Also, these are self grounding so if you have metal boxes you don't need to make up a pigtail for the ground if it isn't already there. One thing I would watch for though is that I've seen a lot of ground wires that are just twisted together with no wire nut or solder, I don't like that, I would definitely keep some yellow nuts on hand in case you run into that scenario, I feel much more secure in the ground connection if the ground wires are wire nutted together like any other conductor.

Funny, this is the same receptacle I chose.

 

[Renegade1LI]

I wouldn't over think it, as a rule when making repairs you should always try & meet code. Code is the minimum required, even though you don't have to meet it it's just good practice. With that said we bought & sold a few homes the past few years, it seems pre 1980 it's not an issue, unless there is a huge problem that is evident. Just bought a place end of 21, as is, the bank told me if you put 20% or more down & it appraises for at least the amount financed they are happy. As long as you don't lie or with hold known issues you are fine, you have to sign a truth in disclosure affidavit, at least in NY. Apparently as is means just that, the bank just seems to care about the resale value. The last 3 houses no one even questioned additions, remodels, the town really doesn't get involved.

 

[ycgoat]

I wouldn't over think it, as a rule when making repairs you should always try & meet code. Code is the minimum required, even though you don't have to meet it it's just good practice. With that said we bought & sold a few homes the past few years, it seems pre 1980 it's not an issue, unless there is a huge problem that is evident. Just bought a place end of 21, as is, the bank told me if you put 20% or more down & it appraises for at least the amount financed they are happy. As long as you don't lie or with hold known issues you are fine, you have to sign a truth in disclosure affidavit, at least in NY. Apparently as is means just that, the bank just seems to care about the resale value. The last 3 houses no one even questioned additions, remodels, the town really doesn't get involved.

I have found this to true with the exception of HUD and VA

 

[MushCreek]

When we sold our FL house in 2013, we were required to install GFCI outets where required by code (kitchen, bath, outdoors). If I did them before inspection, I could DIY. After inspection, they would have to be done by a licensed electrician. I also had to install a hurricane rated garage door. As others have said, you need to check with the local authorities having jurisdiction. Only they can tell you what is required. I suppose I could have sold the house as-is, for a lot less money.

 

[PoorUB]

You guys do realize that a home inspection really doesn't have any authority. He can tell you to bring the outlets up to code and you can refuse. Or if they require an licensed electrician, you can refuse that also. All it amounts to is a bargaining tactic when buying a home.

A friend of mine sold a home a few years ago. He wasn't in a hurry to sell it. He got an offer and they had all kinds of issues the inspector found, most stuff you would find in any older home. He was pretty worked up about it telling me all the things he was "required" to repair. I told he to counter offer with a couple of the worst things on the list, or tell them to go away and put the house back on he market. It went back and forth a bit and finally the deal fell through and the house went back on the market. About a week later someone agreed to his price, they disclosed what was on the inspection, the buyer didn't care and bought the place.

 

[mike93lx]

You guys do realize that a home inspection really doesn't have any authority. He can tell you to bring the outlets up to code and you can refuse. Or if they require an licensed electrician, you can refuse that also. All it amounts to is a bargaining tactic when buying a home.

A friend of mine sold a home a few years ago. He wasn't in a hurry to sell it. He got an offer and they had all kinds of issues the inspector found, most stuff you would find in any older home. He was pretty worked up about it telling me all the things he was "required" to repair. I told he to counter offer with a couple of the worst things on the list, or tell them to go away and put the house back on he market. It went back and forth a bit and finally the deal fell through and the house went back on the market. About a week later someone agreed to his price, they disclosed what was on the inspection, the buyer didn't care and bought the place.

To some extent, there is an exception for a FHA/HUD/VA loan. There are certain things that will prevent a closing with those, although you are not forced to repair for them, you could cancel the deal instead, assuming your contract for the home doesn't prevent it

 

[JunkBonds]

That said, never ever bid on a real estate purchase based on '15-20 minute walk through'. Not ever. Always make it very clear that your purchase offer is based on what your home inspections come up with. And yes, always have at least 2 home inspections performed. And never ever on any home inspection outfit that's recommended by either RE agent.

It sounds like you don't know the reality of the current market.

The current market is selling way over asking with multiple offers with zero conditions. Of any kind.

When wife and I bought our house 2 1/2 years ago we: had a 20 minute opportunity to view the house, paid over asking, competed with multiple other offers and went with zero conditions. All for a house built in the 1880's.

Since then our new house has doubled in value over what we paid. In 2 1/2 years. And, yes, I have spent 2 1/2 years fixing all sorts of stuff a formal inspection would have found but that is totally irrelevant.

A bunch of what I have fixed is replacing 70 year old nongrounded wiring. So, OP can jury rig the plugs and you are still faced with having very old wire that any inspection will call out. Old wire that can have brittle insulation. My house started with candle light, went to knob and tube, then in about 1950 went with more modern 2 wire nongrounded and now all modern grounded wire.

 

[mike93lx]

But home inspectors might. GFIC receptacles in the kitchen and bath(s) are always a good sign. Such may not 'required' per local codes, but they're a good thing to see nonetheless. That said, never ever bid on a real estate purchase based on '15-20 minute walk through'. Not ever. Always make it very clear that your purchase offer is based on what your home inspections come up with. And yes, always have at least 2 home inspections performed. And never ever on any home inspection outfit that's recommended by either RE agent.

Lol.

We had 45 showings over 2 days for our house. If you want a house today, 15-20 minutes is what you get. Maybe 30 if you are lucky.

I would not have even considered an offer with an inspection contingency. We had people lining up waiving it. 13 offers, at least 3/4 of them had some inspection waiver. Some where a dollar amount, some were a total waiver.

For the house we bought, I was able to get an offer accepted with a $5k waiver.

2 inspections? Ha

 

[PoorUB]

About two years ago, before the market went nuts a friend put his home up for sale. We were over visiting and his realtor called and asked if he had time as he had two offers. The realtor came over and my friend asked me to stay and be part of it as perhaps I might have an opinion on something. (Me, have an opinion? ) Any way the first offer asked for an inspection, plus they did not have financing in place. The second was no inspection, financing was in place, and they offered $5,000 over any other offers. I said, "Well this seems easy!" and everyone got a chuckle. We discussed the offers in bit more detail and of course my buddy took the obvious one and the sale went easily.

 

[reader2580]

I sold a 2001 built house in 2014. The only thing the inspector found was a drip from the sump pump discharge pipe. The buyers wanted that fixed so I fixed it. It was easy enough so I just did it.

 

[My Old Tools]

100% of home inspectors will flag it as not meeting code (if they are real inspectors). That doesn't mean you have to upgrade it. Inspectors will never go back to research old codes.

 

[n8n]

Funny, this is the same receptacle I chose.

Not funny at all, I'm totally sold on the "back wire" style screw connections, they're great.

 

[mike93lx]

100% of home inspectors will flag it as not meeting code (if they are real inspectors). That doesn't mean you have to upgrade it. Inspectors will never go back to research old codes.

I disagree.

Home inspectors are not electricians and aren't up on all of the latest code. Best you will get is something about it being non standard and a number that it might cost to have an electrician update it. They aren't calling out NEC references

 

[FMB4]

Ya, hot RE markets can make Inspections a non issue. But that doesn't mean its a good idea to skip such. That said, panic buying, and spending too much on upgrades, can be a great way to end up in foreclosure. I'll also add that having at least 1 Inspection can not only protect the buyer, but the seller as well. That said, are you the type of panic buyer that skips any Inspection because it's a hot RE market?

 

[acer66]

I disagree.

Home inspectors are not electricians and aren't up on all of the latest code. Best you will get is something about it being non standard and a number that it might cost to have an electrician update it. They aren't calling out NEC references

Yup that reminds me of when I was going over the electrical write up of the home inspector report when one of my exes sold her house.
I was shaking my head but I am not an electrician so I double checked my findings with the pros here and not one of the points the home inspector was raising was valid.

 

[kbuhagiar]

Ya, hot RE markets can make Inspections a non issue. But that doesn't mean its a good idea to skip such. That said, panic buying, and spending too much on upgrades, can be a great way to end up in foreclosure. I'll also add that having at least 1 Inspection can not only protect the buyer, but the seller as well.

Couldn't agree more.

We bought a place in North San Diego County (Escondido) in August of 2021 and although there were several offers after the second day, the one thing I absolutely refused to relinquish was the inspection. Good thing, as we found over $40,000 worth of repairs to the roof and pool (along with other smaller repairs) and the seller agreed to a $50,000 credit on our all-cash offer. I think we got lucky, because most sellers around here are now adapting a 'take-it-or-leave-it' attitude.

The market is even crazier now, our home value has already increased $200K over our purchase price, in just six months. Insane. Glad we made the move when we did.

 

[mike93lx]

Couldn't agree more.

We bought a place in North San Diego County (Escondido) in August of 2021 and although there were several offers after the second day, the one thing I absolutely refused to relinquish was the inspection. Good thing, as we found over $40,000 worth of repairs to the roof and pool (along with other smaller repairs) and the seller agreed to a $50,000 credit on our all-cash offer. I think we got lucky, because most sellers around here are now adapting a 'take-it-or-leave-it' attitude.

The market is even crazier now, home value has already increased $200K over our purchase price. Insane. Glad we made the move when we did.

All cash is what made that inspection contingency OK. Had you come in with financing and not a huge down payment, I bet you would have lost it. You may have decided it was a requirement for you, but I think you should be realistic on why you were able to do it

 

[FMB4]

Off topic: but I sure am glad that we're not in the RE market right now. And I feel bad for those trying to buy at this time.

 

[Reata210]

On the two wire outlets install gfci outlets and mark “no equipment ground”. Much safer meets code/NEC requirements. Or just leave them alone. Either way won’t affect the sale of your home from a code violation. Keep in mind the inspectors tester will not fault during a test since it relies on a ground. The test button on the outlet will work fine.

 

[kbuhagiar]

All cash is what made that inspection contingency OK. Had you come in with financing and not a huge down payment, I bet you would have lost it. You may have decided it was a requirement for you, but I think you should be realistic on why you were able to do it

No argument there.
I guess what I was trying to convey is that we were in the right time and place and circumstance to make the purchase.

I am grateful we got in just under the wire; although we were willing to finance the purchase, and had a pre-approved loan, we really didn't want another mortgage.

And as crazy as the market appeared six months ago, it's even worse today, with no relief in sight.

 

[mike93lx]

Off topic: but I sure am glad that we're not in the RE market right now. And I feel bad for those trying to buy at this time.

We got a couple offers from couples and you families that felt like looking back in time to my wife and I when we bought our last house a decade ago. Looking for great schools and a quiet neighborhood.

Unfortunately, the people that sent letters had the lowest offers and emotion won't put money in my bank account, so they lost. Had the amounts been close, it probably would have helped then, but the amount that a couple people were willing to go over asking made the decision easy.