pulling wires in conduit (and subpanel question)

[1990dtgl98]

Hey all, quick question.

I have a detached pole building 110' from my house. Currently it has 3" conduit (score!) With two 90* bends with SER (2224) powering a 12kw solar array and 6ga copper powering the subpanel on 40amp. It also has a bare 4ga solid copper ground between panels.

Everything I read the ser is incorrect for the new NEC codes. So happens my solar stopped working and one leg is only reading 75 volts. I don't think the conduit is compromised. The only work around it lately was redoing my dosing tank on my septic 4 years ago. No other heavy equipment over it since. It was, however, full of water.

Should I be worried the conduit is compromised? Is there anyway to find out short of pulled new wire?

I bought 2 runs of 2 2 2 4 use-2 mobile home feed, with the intentions to run a new line to my solar to fix that, then run an additional line to my subpanel to run 90amp instead of 40amp currently.

I also plan on running a shielded cat6 and shielded rg11 line doing it all at once.

The good thing is the previous owner used 3" conduit.

But, that being said, the questions I had:

1.) Is there any way to verify the conduit is ok?

2.) Should I pull a run of 2224 (attach to the old wire) and then do the 2nd run? Or should I pull both at once (attaching one to each one wire)? Would one way be better, or with 3" pipe should it not be an issue either way?

3.) I heard water in conduit is normal, is there anything to worry about in that regard long term?

4.) Is there any reason why I should pull around that bare copper ground? Both runs are grounded. The detached building and the disconnect for the solar both have grounding rods. I'm not sure it's worth leaving that single wire and trying to pull everything around it. I know more grounds are never bad, but I just don't know if that's necessary to leave?

5.) Two sets of 2224 is ok in 3" conduit?

6.) Power, ethernet, cable. Am I missing anything. I only want to do this once.

Ok...more than I originally thought I had. Thanks y'all!

 

[Terry D]

You can not put coax and cat 6 in the same conduit with the power

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Hey all, quick question.

I have a detached pole building 110' from my house. Currently it has 3" conduit (score!) With two 90* bends with SER (2224) powering a 12kw solar array and 6ga copper powering the subpanel on 40amp. It also has a bare 4ga solid copper ground between panels.

Everything I read the ser is incorrect for the new NEC codes. So happens my solar stopped working and one leg is only reading 75 volts. I don't think the conduit is compromised. The only work around it lately was redoing my dosing tank on my septic 4 years ago. No other heavy equipment over it since. It was, however, full of water.

Should I be worried the conduit is compromised? Is there anyway to find out short of pulled new wire?

I bought 2 runs of 2 2 2 4 use-2 mobile home feed, with the intentions to run a new line to my solar to fix that, then run an additional line to my subpanel to run 90amp instead of 40amp currently.

I also plan on running a shielded cat6 and shielded rg11 line doing it all at once.

The good thing is the previous owner used 3" conduit.

But, that being said, the questions I had:

1.) Is there any way to verify the conduit is ok?

2.) Should I pull a run of 2224 (attach to the old wire) and then do the 2nd run? Or should I pull both at once (attaching one to each one wire)? Would one way be better, or with 3" pipe should it not be an issue either way?

3.) I heard water in conduit is normal, is there anything to worry about in that regard long term?

4.) Is there any reason why I should pull around that bare copper ground? Both runs are grounded. The detached building and the disconnect for the solar both have grounding rods. I'm not sure it's worth leaving that single wire and trying to pull everything around it. I know more grounds are never bad, but I just don't know if that's necessary to leave?

5.) Two sets of 2224 is ok in 3" conduit?

6.) Power, ethernet, cable. Am I missing anything. I only want to do this once.

Ok...more than I originally thought I had. Thanks y'all!

what do you mean by new NEC code? SER hasnt been allowed underground forever....

#4 what ground wire are you referring to?

#5 I wouldnt run 2 sets of #2 MHF in 3". gonna be a bare...

#6 Ethernet and coax need to be ran in a separate conduit...

 

[dcg9381]

6.) Power, ethernet, cable. Am I missing anything. I only want to do this once.

What's the purpose of the ethernet cable? As others have mentioned, this can't be put in conduit with power wire. If it's to control your "rapid shut down" or is otherwise necessary for solar control, you can use "generator control wire" in the same conduit - which is correctly rated and you can get it with a bunch of very small conductors.

Running actual ethernet - do a parallel run of 3/4" conduit.

 

[mcbane]

With a 3" conduit, any sewer contractor with a camera can inspect the conduit for you.

 

[ycgoat]

I would not trust any cables in the conduit when a fault occurred, and my experience has been that even if they still work fine they end up failing in the near future. I would start by pulling the bare ground out by its self, if you can. It may even show signs of the fault. If it comes out with out too much struggle your conduit is probably OK. Then pull out as many as you can at one time, moving to one at a time if needed. Run a foam conduit piston through it a couple of times before pulling in new wire. When pulling in new wire, I would try to minimize the # of wires used, and pull individual conductors vs a cable assembly (which may need to be derated), all pulled at the same time but each cable staggered at the pulling head to make pulling easier.

 

[mike93lx]

I don't think I would use existing wire as a pull. Rope will be much easier to handle. Once you yank everything out, getting a new pull string in is easy. Just use a shop vac and tie a plastic shopping bag to the string. It will pull itself through

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I would not use bare ground wire underground.... it will corrode...

 

[1990dtgl98]

what do you mean by new NEC code? SER hasnt been allowed underground forever....

#4 what ground wire are you referring to?

#5 I wouldnt run 2 sets of #2 MHF in 3". gonna be a bare...

#6 Ethernet and coax need to be ran in a separate conduit...

I thought it was mixed/not worded correctly until 2008 when it was definitively worded.

I have a bare copper ground that runs from main panel to subpanel. In addition to the other grounds.

What would you run? I figured it was easier than pulling 8 individually, but if it isn't, couldn't I just unwrap the mhf?

What's the purpose of the ethernet cable? As others have mentioned, this can't be put in conduit with power wire. If it's to control your "rapid shut down" or is otherwise necessary for solar control, you can use "generator control wire" in the same conduit - which is correctly rated and you can get it with a bunch of very small conductors.

Running actual ethernet - do a parallel run of 3/4" conduit.

Honestly I have a few classic cars and just wanted to add some cameras inside the building on a eufy or other home camera system. The way my router/house/pole building is setup a directional wifi setup pointed toward it is very hard to do. I've looked into that.

Is it a issue with interference they can't be ran together?

I would not trust any cables in the conduit when a fault occurred, and my experience has been that even if they still work fine they end up failing in the near future. I would start by pulling the bare ground out by its self, if you can. It may even show signs of the fault. If it comes out with out too much struggle your conduit is probably OK. Then pull out as many as you can at one time, moving to one at a time if needed. Run a foam conduit piston through it a couple of times before pulling in new wire. When pulling in new wire, I would try to minimize the # of wires used, and pull individual conductors vs a cable assembly (which may need to be derated), all pulled at the same time but each cable staggered at the pulling head to make pulling easier.

I wasn't planning on leaving any in...or do you mean you wouldn't trust any future cables after a fault occurred?

I don't think I would use existing wire as a pull. Rope will be much easier to handle. Once you yank everything out, getting a new pull string in is easy. Just use a shop vac and tie a plastic shopping bag to the string. It will pull itself through

I didnt think about pulling old and new at the same time. Good idea on the rope.

I would not use bare ground wire underground.... it will corrode...

I was hoping to pull that out and just use 2 grounds. That's technically a 3rd. There's copper ground to subpanel. Alum ground to solar panel..then this bare ground from main panel to subpanel. Seems redundant? Needed? Or leave it out?

 

[mike93lx]

What would you run? I figured it was easier than pulling 8 individually, but if it isn't, couldn't I just unwrap the mhf?

You wouldn't pull them one at a time. Make a bundle and setup the spools to unfeed. Definitely do not unwind mhf.

With 3" conduit, this should be easier than easy

 

[larry4406]

I’m no sparky.

3” conduit sounds generous but what do I know?

Is it possible/code approved for the OP to pull an inner duct for his comm while using the remainder for his power/solar?

 

[1990dtgl98]

You wouldn't pull them one at a time. Make a bundle and setup the spools to unfeed. Definitely do not unwind mhf.

With 3" conduit, this should be easier than easy

I only thought about the mhf since a coworker of mine has a spool it from a project he never got to do with new stormwater management plans put in. Said 300 feet for 400 bucks.

Can i still use mhf?

 

[mike93lx]

I only thought about the mhf since a coworker of mine has a spool it from a project he never got to do with new stormwater management plans put in. Said 300 feet for 400 bucks.

Can i still use mhf?

MHF is fine underground, in or out of conduit. It can also go indoors, just had to be in conduit.

Xhhw is an option, just requires conduit the entire way

 

[dcg9381]

[Cat 5/6}

Is it a issue with interference they can't be ran together?

No, although that might be an issue mitigated by shielded cable. It's an NEC code issue.
One reference: https://www.csemag.com/articles/clarifying-nec-articles-725-and-800/

 

[ltusler]

I think you could pull a fiber cable along with the power as long as it underground rated and has no metal strength members.

 

[ycgoat]

I think you could pull a fiber cable along with the power as long as it underground rated and has no metal strength members.

I don't think that is code compliant either, but would have to look to be sure, regardless you would need it in an inner duct to protect it from physical damage and that would take up a lot of space in the conduit.

 

[1990dtgl98]

You wouldn't pull them one at a time. Make a bundle and setup the spools to unfeed. Definitely do not unwind mhf.

With 3" conduit, this should be easier than easy

The mhf isn't on a spool, it's basically hand coiled sitting on plywood. Do you mean unwind the mhf to individual feeds or unwind from spool?

No, although that might be an issue mitigated by shielded cable. It's an NEC code issue.
One reference: https://www.csemag.com/articles/clarifying-nec-articles-725-and-800/

I guess my question would be. If it's not a safety concern or an interference concern, and im only using it for a passive camera system....if the only reason is it's not to code for NEC, I just wouldn't be in compliance if I ran it? No cross feed or shock concern or something?

If so I might just pull it.

 

[mike93lx]

The mhf isn't on a spool, it's basically hand coiled sitting on plywood. Do you mean unwind the mhf to individual feeds or unwind from spool?



I guess my question would be. If it's not a safety concern or an interference concern, and im only using it for a passive camera system....if the only reason is it's not to code for NEC, I just wouldn't be in compliance if I ran it? No cross feed or shock concern or something?

If so I might just pull it.

From a spool.

I would definitely not separate the conductors.

Either way, if you get someone to assist, it should be manageable. One person feeding, one pulling

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The mhf isn't on a spool, it's basically hand coiled sitting on plywood. Do you mean unwind the mhf to individual feeds or unwind from spool?

I guess my question would be. If it's not a safety concern or an interference concern, and im only using it for a passive camera system....if the only reason is it's not to code for NEC, I just wouldn't be in compliance if I ran it? No cross feed or shock concern or something?

If so I might just pull it.

it actually is a safety issue and an interference issue. thats why its against code and not a good idea.

the insulation is not rated for the correct voltage and you can get interference on the line.

what is a passive camera system?

 

[dcg9381]

I guess my question would be. If it's not a safety concern or an interference concern, and im only using it for a passive camera system....if the only reason is it's not to code for NEC, I just wouldn't be in compliance if I ran it? No cross feed or shock concern or something?

If so I might just pull it.

If the NEC (National Electric Code) says it's a no-no, it's inherently NOT compliant. It'd be relatively easy to find if you've got CAT5/6 exiting a conduit with a main power line (assuming any mid-grade home inspector opens the panel). If you have an electrical inspection, it'll definitely fail. Is it "safe"? Conduit is considered "wet" - a cross cut in your power main and ethernet would make it pretty darn unsafe, not only for you but for your network equipment.

Two things:
1) Ungrounded Ethernet is a poor choice for long runs - trust me, it's subject to electrical conduction if you have a nearly (even across the street - 100s of feet away) lightening strike. Shielded is better. And shielded grounded is probably best. I will say that I still run it have at least one run of 300' (appropriate gauge shielded).

2) Fiber is better but requires adapters on both ends.

If you've got a trench, just throw 3/4 conduit in there, you'll be glad you did long term.

 

[1990dtgl98]

it actually is a safety issue and an interference issue. thats why its against code and not a good idea.

the insulation is not rated for the correct voltage and you can get interference on the line.

what is a passive camera system?

Like a home camera system that gives my phone push notifications via wifi.

Think, arlo, eufy, blink, ring, etc.

I say passive in that it's not managed or linked to a home security company.

If the NEC (National Electric Code) says it's a no-no, it's inherently NOT compliant. It'd be relatively easy to find if you've got CAT5/6 exiting a conduit with a main power line (assuming any mid-grade home inspector opens the panel). If you have an electrical inspection, it'll definitely fail. Is it "safe"? Conduit is considered "wet" - a cross cut in your power main and ethernet would make it pretty darn unsafe, not only for you but for your network equipment.

Two things:
1) Ungrounded Ethernet is a poor choice for long runs - trust me, it's subject to electrical conduction if you have a nearly (even across the street - 100s of feet away) lightening strike. Shielded is better. And shielded grounded is probably best. I will say that I still run it have at least one run of 300' (appropriate gauge shielded).

2) Fiber is better but requires adapters on both ends.

If you've got a trench, just throw 3/4 conduit in there, you'll be glad you did long term.

I dont have the trench though. I have the old conduit. I would easily run a seperate conduit if I had to dig up the old one, but if the general consenus is the conduit is probably alright, I didn't want to have to trench and run conduit just for an ethernet cable.

Might have to rethink my options then.

 

[dcg9381]

Consider a POE camera system instead.
There is a type of "ground contact" CAT5/CAT6 if you don't want to dig a new conduit.
The other option that I've used and used well is Ubiquiti "long range" access points for wifi. No digging. Just power on both ends.

 

[ycgoat]

If I am not mistaken, you have not tried to pull the old cables out yet, so there is a chance you may not be able to. If I were you I would have 2 plans; Plan A replace all feeders in the existing conduit and run a wireless system for networking; Plan B dig a new trench with a duct bank configuration (multiple conduits), with at least one spare.

 

[RPH]

Use the old conduit for power. Run a new smaller for the low voltage options. It doesn’t need to be buried too deep. Most cable tv wire is placed just under the sod. Not saying it’s a good and wise practice but it is reality. I go a good foot or so. Protect it with tape indicating what you’re digging towards.

 

[1990dtgl98]

If I am not mistaken, you have not tried to pull the old cables out yet, so there is a chance you may not be able to. If I were you I would have 2 plans; Plan A replace all feeders in the existing conduit and run a wireless system for networking; Plan B dig a new trench with a duct bank configuration (multiple conduits), with at least one spare.

There is thst possibility. I will probably start either the bare copper ground and see if that pulls through .

Am I correct in that wire isn't even necessary if I have seperate grounds for both subpanels? I also have a copper ground rod outside the building as well.

 

[ycgoat]

No you do not need the bare ground at all. Typically I only pull 1 ground per conduit sized for the largest circuit and bond to other system or equipment grounds, but there are many code changes in the last few years, especially around the solar systems that I am not up to date on. I would recommend you get access to the 2020 code hand book (possibly the local library) and read through sections 250, 685, and 690 and any others you may have questions about.

 

[mike93lx]

There is thst possibility. I will probably start either the bare copper ground and see if that pulls through .

Am I correct in that wire isn't even necessary if I have seperate grounds for both subpanels? I also have a copper ground rod outside the building as well.

Ground rounds and the wire running back are not the same thing. You absolutely need a grounding conductor

 

[wyliesdiesels]

If the NEC (National Electric Code) says it's a no-no, it's inherently NOT compliant. It'd be relatively easy to find if you've got CAT5/6 exiting a conduit with a main power line (assuming any mid-grade home inspector opens the panel). If you have an electrical inspection, it'll definitely fail. Is it "safe"? Conduit is considered "wet" - a cross cut in your power main and ethernet would make it pretty darn unsafe, not only for you but for your network equipment.

Two things:
1) Ungrounded Ethernet is a poor choice for long runs - trust me, it's subject to electrical conduction if you have a nearly (even across the street - 100s of feet away) lightening strike. Shielded is better. And shielded grounded is probably best. I will say that I still run it have at least one run of 300' (appropriate gauge shielded).

2) Fiber is better but requires adapters on both ends.

If you've got a trench, just throw 3/4 conduit in there, you'll be glad you did long term.

or just use switches on both ends, that have fiber SFPs

Like a home camera system that gives my phone push notifications via wifi.

Think, arlo, eufy, blink, ring, etc.

I say passive in that it's not managed or linked to a home security company.

But thats not an industry term. it doesnt mean anything.

I have cameras that arent linked to a home security company. they record to SD cards. but theyre not called passive. what youre thinking of is 'not monitored' however ring IS a home security company so thats a contradiction....

There is that possibility. I will probably start either the bare copper ground and see if that pulls through .

Am I correct in that wire isn't even necessary if I have separate grounds for both subpanels? I also have a copper ground rod outside the building as well.

what is the bare copper ground wire being used for?

 

[1990dtgl98]

Ground rounds and the wire running back are not the same thing. You absolutely need a grounding conductor

or just use switches on both ends, that have fiber SFPs


But thats not an industry term. it doesnt mean anything.

I have cameras that arent linked to a home security company. they record to SD cards. but theyre not called passive. what youre thinking of is 'not monitored' however ring IS a home security company so thats a contradiction....

what is the bare copper ground wire being used for?

No idea. It's essentially a 3rd ground.. I have 2224 for the solar with a ground, 6 GA with a ground for subpanel. Then this bare copper ground.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

ok where do both ends of this bare wire go?

 

[dcg9381]

or just use switches on both ends, that have fiber SFPs

That's a good idea, if you're familiar with switch configuration or can get an unmanaged switch that does SFPs.
Bad side of switches is they can be power hungry and produce heat. You can get decent deals on Cisco switches that do POE, support SFP and are a few years old for a fraction of what they cost new. I wouldn't call them "trivial" to setup though.