Pole shed heaved. . . How can I "save" this?

[Tech89]

A couple few years ago our pole shed heaved pretty high. Is there a good way to save this or not really? I can't remember the dimensions of it off the top of my head right now and I'm at work, but I want to say it's like a 30X40 or 30X50. It heaved all around, doesn't seem to have hurt the structure itself and the building itself is still level, but I'm betting the slab probably isn't quite level anymore as it has a larger gap on one side compared to the other. Do I have and viable options?


Thanks in advance.

-Pat

 

[Adaylate]

What is the first depth?
Where are you?

Frost depth. Dang Auto correct!

 

[billconner]

So building is fine but slab has dropped?

 

[jkuro]

Most likely water is getting under the slab, freezing and lifting the slab. My suggestions, regrade to keep water out and install a french drain around the perimeter.

 

[Tech89]

What is the first depth?
Where are you?

In Northern Minnesota. The slab even appears to still be level upon inspection. A family friend of my girlfriend's said back in the day him and his father used to use bottle jacks to support the building while the cut the posts so they could close the gap between the bottom of the shed and slab, but this sounds like a bad idea to me. I've heard some guys dig down around every post to the bottom and the building comes down to where it should be. These posts are surrounded on three sides, the posts at the front are surrounded on all sides. A few people I've talked to have told me to just close the gap with boards or some other type of water resistant material and lower my garage doors. I'm just trying to find my best option.

-Pat

 

[kbs2244]

unheated building ?
frost heave
water under slab freezes
put o gutters and route downspouts well away
get a mud jacking quote on fixing what you have

 

[Sweetcorn]

For clarity, your concrete slab has not moved, but your poles have pushed up, taking the structure of the building up with it, correct?

 

[Tech89]

unheated building ?
frost heave
water under slab freezes
put o gutters and route downspouts well away
get a mud jacking quote on fixing what you have

Yes unheated.

For clarity, your concrete slab has not moved, but your poles have pushed up, taking the structure of the building up with it, correct?

Correct.

-Pat

 

[Jeff Ivers]

What makes you believe that the pole building structure has gone up rather than the slab sinking? Do you know how the slab was poured? A picture of the outside of the structure on each side would help with evaluation.

 

[kj_mustang]

Have you put a level on the top of the skirt board in several locations to verify that the building has moved?

 

[Sumboodie]

Id probably put a rubber around the bottom and call it good. It's going to move up and down.

Only other fix is to dig the posts deeper, or better yet, a foundation for the posts to be on.

 

[dfiler2]

I've seen it happen a few times, usually caused by putting poles a little shallow then using a donut or footing under the pole, followed by a wet fall. It's a difficult thing to fix, if your building went up fairly even all the way around you are better off leaving it. If it is just a few areas you can dig down under the pole but it is a real PIA. We always wrap the poles with plastic or tar paper so the frozen ground doesn't grip the pole, however, if you have those donuts or footings under the pole the frost will push them up most years. Around here poles are set about 4' deep which is only below the frost on a really mild year.

 

[billconner]

I guess I'm surprised the poles heaved all exactly the same all around. Just seems more likely slab moved.

 

[The Cobbler]

if the posts have heaved from frost, they likely will continue. as mentioned it's odd that they would have all lifted equally, but in a way, so would be for the slab sinking equally unless there was fill in an equal layer that wasn't compacted . maybe more study is needed

 

[Uncle murph]

Yes unheated.

Correct.

-Pat

Frost lifting a row of poles all exactly the same amount? I doubt it,if it was the poles it would be random with visable wracking and twisting .Whatever movement took place was in the slab. I would add would to close the gap but install it so that it can give a little when it freezes again.

 

[John McA]

Pole Barns: When this very popular building envelope begins to show exactly why it is fairly inexpensive to build but, has its ups and downs uh, seasonally, pending frost, soil type and preparation.

I have been following Diesel Creek: Pole barn - Dream Shop. I am going to pester this guy - he just put in 6ft of good fill for the pad. What was the effort made to avoid issues with separating the building envelope and the working slab: Are they joined structurally or, separated?

Good luck to OP,
John McA

 

[billconner]

Is the gap between slab and wall equal?

 

[Natty Bumppo]

The fact that the building is still level and the pad is not suggests the pad has settled.

 

[Tech89]

The fact that the building is still level and the pad is not suggests the pad has settled.

The slab is level. Maybe the slab sank, but it's still level with the apron out front and seems to be where it was around the other three sides.

-Pat

 

[Tech89]

Is the gap between slab and wall equal?

Not all the way around.

-Pat

 

[Natty Bumppo]

The slab is level. Maybe the slab sank, but it's still level with the apron out front and seems to be where it was around the other three sides.

-Pat

Roger that. I was just going off what you said in your OP...."I'm betting the slab probably isn't quite level anymore as it has a larger gap on one side compared to the other."

You have said that building is level. Now that the pad is level. But if there is a larger gap on one side compared to the other, one of those 2 things is not level.

 

[jrevans]

Without better pictures, based on the one picture that shows a pole, looks like the discoloration on the pole shows the degree of displacement. Appears to be about 2 inches or so. Only way to tell is to use a laser level or even some mason line, tape measure, and a line level to determine the actual shift. Keep in mind that the slab was likely sloped toward the overhead door for drainage.

Once you can determine the degree of the shift, and assess the movement of the poles vs. slab, you can then begin to start looking at options.

In Northern Minnesota, the frost depth should be somewhere around 60". How old is the building, was it built to the required codes,

Finally, you will need to determine what fix is acceptable to you. This will be based on the age, overall condition, expected use, and financial considerations.

Good luck with your project.

 

[NUTTSGT]

I'd almost bet money those poles weren't put in deep enough

Here's a question for the OP, how wet is the ground around the building or was it a wet area that you filled in to build upon ?

 

[Tech89]

Without better pictures, based on the one picture that shows a pole, looks like the discoloration on the pole shows the degree of displacement. Appears to be about 2 inches or so. Only way to tell is to use a laser level or even some mason line, tape measure, and a line level to determine the actual shift. Keep in mind that the slab was likely sloped toward the overhead door for drainage.

Once you can determine the degree of the shift, and assess the movement of the poles vs. slab, you can then begin to start looking at options.

In Northern Minnesota, the frost depth should be somewhere around 60". How old is the building, was it built to the required codes,

Finally, you will need to determine what fix is acceptable to you. This will be based on the age, overall condition, expected use, and financial considerations.

Good luck with your project.

I'll have to do some more observation. I'm a mechanic by trade so bear with me if my methods in my updates aren't correct, I'll try to do the best I can. I have a Mason line and line level. Might pick up a laser level, been looking at those for other projects as well. Thanks for the help. Thanks to everyone else to. Might be a bit before I get some more information together for this thread.

-Pat

 

[Tech89]

I'd almost bet money those poles weren't put in deep enough

Here's a question for the OP, how wet is the ground around the building or was it a wet area that you filled in to build upon ?

It is in a wet area especially when it rains heavy or for a few days. This building was here when my significant other bought the house, so obviously it was here when we got together. House was built in 99. I believe the pole building is probably pretty close to the same age.

-Pat

 

[Sweetcorn]

I'd almost bet money those poles weren't put in deep enough

Here's a question for the OP, how wet is the ground around the building or was it a wet area that you filled in to build upon ?

I'd be tempted to dig down around one of the poles to see how deep they were. That info might affect my course of action.

 

[NUTTSGT]

I'd be tempted to dig down around one of the poles to see how deep they were. That info might affect my course of action.

Yeah, kind of my thoughts if I didn't have it built and/or know for sure how deep the posts were put in or how long of posts were used.


Short posts and not putting them in deep enough is an easy way for a contractor to save a few bucks.

 

[Zeke]

Buy a cheap builder's level and use it to know exactly what is going on. Older used ones are not much money. With 2 people you can sight the place in no time. With a measuring stick, you can do it alone w/o too much trouble. Get something long enough to hang from the ridge so you can read the roof. With any luck you might find a transit for the same money and sight the place w/o a stick. However, it will take some math to 'read' your site. Sighting a site.

Just a little foolin' around there.

 

[Bretny]

This is why you build a building correctly and not cut corners. It's way harder to fix or do again later.

 

[Modern Garage]

OK I'm finally settling down from laughing at all the comments from people who've never visited Norhern Minnesota and seen this before. Yes folks, the poles are climbing out of the ground. We have a lot of wet ground here - we're not "The Land Of 10,000 Lakes" for nuthin' and it can happen even with poles set well below the frost line. What I understand is the top few inches of ground freeze to the pole and then get pushed up as the frost moves lower.
As mentioned above, some sort of wrap to keep the soil from gripping the poles is the answer but VERY difficult to retrofit. I've seen a number of people saw off the poles to get the building (and doors) back to ground level and then cleat the top and bottom back together around the cut. It always makes me wonder what happens in a big enough wind? Maybe steel plates for cleats and plenty of bolts. It will need to be re-done from time to time.
Joe

 

[joey1320]

OK I'm finally settling down from laughing at all the comments from people who've never visited Norhern Minnesota and seen this before. Yes folks, the poles are climbing out of the ground. We have a lot of wet ground here - we're not "The Land Of 10,000 Lakes" for nuthin' and it can happen even with poles set well below the frost line. What I understand is the top few inches of ground freeze to the pole and then get pushed up as the frost moves lower.
As mentioned above, some sort of wrap to keep the soil from gripping the poles is the answer but VERY difficult to retrofit. I've seen a number of people saw off the poles to get the building (and doors) back to ground level and then cleat the top and bottom back together around the cut. It always makes me wonder what happens in a big enough wind? Maybe steel plates for cleats and plenty of bolts. It will need to be re-done from time to time.
Joe

With Joe's information, I would consider his example of cutting and then reattaching the cut posts. I would also, maybe just in the four corners, dig down next to the poles, add a sister post deep down (60"?) and make sure those posts are then secure from soil gripping them. Now you have your shed back in place and four corners secured from heaving again.

For clarity, I'm a ***** so this advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.

 

[billconner]

An article on a very similar building issue. https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2017/09/help-pole-barn-frost-heaving/

 

[jkuro]

So after reading all the responses it still comes down to a water problem. Gutters and downspouts directed away from the building and as I said above, a french drain and regarding should help.