Home AC failed in 5 years

[Junkman]

Just about 5 years ago, we replaced the air handler and the outdoor condenser, and now that it has started to get warm, turned on the unit for the first time since last fall. It would come on and off every 30 seconds, so I shut it down and called the service company. The tech came out and put about a pound of R410-A refrigerant into the system, and it worked for another 2 days. At the time, he said that if there is a leak, they just replace the coil and the condenser to fix the problem. Said it wasn't worth the time it takes to chase down the leak, and that the line sets don't ever leak, so they don't replace them. The air handler was made by the First Company Model 36HBXB-HW and the condenser is American Standard Mod. NO. 4A7A3036H1000NA MFR DATE 3/2017. How difficult is it to find the leak, and are these leaks repairable if the unit is only 5 years old? I called another HVAC company that I have used at work, and they told me that they were so slammed that it will be about a month before they can even look at it.
The heat side of the air handler is hot water, and looking at the label today, I see that it is also a heat pump. If I have to replace both, can it be set up to be used as a heat pump for fall and spring heat, and in the dead of winter, use the hot water side of the unit? Just a random thought if I am going to need a replacement condensing unit. What type of expense am I looking at? I live in Northeast Connecticut.

 

[bonneyman]

Yep, this sounds like the new business practice. "Repair by replacement".

It's because tracking down a leak takes time and skill, and the companies would much rather have the techs spending their time making the "big bucks" of installs rather than genuine service. Another thread the OP said his company doesn't even work on R22 units anymore as the freon is $1300 a jug - and they don't want to spend $1300 to sell you $300 worth.

It's disgusting how A/C service has gone, but, it seems like that's the way it is.

 

[Wrench97]

Well line sets can and do leak, start by looking for oil stains on the unit. service ports are big source of leaks also.
Then find a different service company.

 

[Junkdrawer Dog]

I had the same thing happen to me once. I didn't really like the story line that it was just "too hard to find and fix". I called another HVAC guy and he found the leak in about 15 minutes. It was right at the service connections and likely caused by the other outfit when they serviced it last! So he fixed it for me and became my new HVAC guy.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Just about 5 years ago, we replaced the air handler and the outdoor condenser, and now that it has started to get warm, turned on the unit for the first time since last fall. It would come on and off every 30 seconds, so I shut it down and called the service company. The tech came out and put about a pound of R410-A refrigerant into the system, and it worked for another 2 days. At the time, he said that if there is a leak, they just replace the coil and the condenser to fix the problem.

of course they do that. because its quicker money than tracking down the leak. and if theres still a leak after replacement, they arent gonna put the old equipment back in so they make even more money.... this is called crappy service and bait n switch in my neck of the woods.

Said it wasn't worth the time it takes to chase down the leak,

thats some odd reasoning. it seems to me that charging by the hour would make decent money... my guess is they dont want to crawl around in an attic...

and that the line sets don't ever leak, so they don't replace them.

and this is total BS.... find a new company thats not gonna sell you bullsh*t...

 

[Feralghoul88]

"too hard to find and fix".... Translation....."We have either have ran off all the skilled service techs we had, or we never hired any and rather than have you complain about the $1500 we would have to charge you for all the time the clueless guy straight out of HVAC school would have to charge to make up for all the time he spends scratching his head we will just replace everything at once and act like thats the best thing for your interest"

 

[fitter30]

Line set should of been replaced unless it ran in a finished space and then be flushed with a solvent. If the contractor was busy he should of offer to come back in a week or two to spend a hour leak checking. Or added uv dye to the system then return. Like in any repair business there are industry standards, industry practices ( that contractor practices). Some contractor just want to sell equipment. Contractor is more important than the brand.

 

[mepstein]

I had the same thing happen to me once. I didn't really like the story line that it was just "too hard to find and fix". I called another HVAC guy and he found the leak in about 15 minutes. It was right at the service connections and likely caused by the other outfit when they serviced it last! So he fixed it for me and became my new HVAC guy.

Very similar story to my leak. It was at a connection. It was still under warranty (10 years) so they fixed it. He said it’s not common after 2-3 years but it happens.

 

[bonneyman]

Line set leaks are a royal pain. Tough to confirm, alot of work to fix. But - as has been said - when the house got "upgraded" to R410a the line set should have been replaced. if it runs under the slab it's the lowest -- and coolest - part of the A/C system. Freon and oil like to congregate (lol) there. R410a oil doesn't like the old mineral oil, so, a good flushing of the lineset is in order. Easier just to change it.
To find lineset leaks under the slab I would pump the system up with nitrogen and then let my freon sniffer sit near the outlet of the lines by the condensing unit. Usually the two copper tubes and thermostat bundle are run inside of a 4" ABS pipe, and the concrete slab is poured over it when the house is built. Any freon fumes should exhaust out either end. The outside end is easier to test without bothering the customer.
If the lineset is in the attic or on the roof, then the tech has to crawl up there and pull off the armorflex and soap bubble check or sniff check the whole line. Yikes! not fun.
If the system is being a real beach I used to cut the system lines apart and isolate each section. (Evap coil, lineset, and condensing unit). Install some schrader valves onto each part, and pump them up with N2 to about 400 PSI. Wait a day or two, then come back and see which part lost pressure. Bingo! The leak is in that section.

As you can see this is alot of work and ties up the tech for at least 2 days doing a "leak test". Bosses don't like doing that, as - even if you find the leak - it's hard to get the customer to want to pay for all that "busy' work.

 

[Junkman]

The line sets were new in 2017. I have another tech coming tomorrow and I told him what was done. He said that the entire system needs to be evacuated and filled with nitrogen to look for the leak. I told him that the other tech put 1 pound of R410-A into the system and that it leaked out after 4 days. He said that you can't top off R410A because it is a blended gas, and you don't know which of the 2 gasses has escaped. Sounds strange to me. I just did a google search, and what I have read is that is an old wives tale. Possibly it is to sell more products?

 

[metlmunchr]

The line sets were new in 2017. I have another tech coming tomorrow and I told him what was done. He said that the entire system needs to be evacuated and filled with nitrogen to look for the leak. I told him that the other tech put 1 pound of R410-A into the system and that it leaked out after 4 days. He said that you can't top off R410A because it is a blended gas, and you don't know which of the 2 gasses has escaped. Sounds strange to me. I just did a google search, and what I have read is that is an old wives tale. Possibly it is to sell more products?

He is correct, sorta. A minor refrigerant loss can be topped up. But a unit that's lost enough gas to short cycle every 30 seconds has lost a lot of the charge. In that case, the entire charge should be replaced for the reason he gave you.

The condensing unit should have a 10 yr parts warranty on the compressor, condenser coil, and internal components. Leaks that are very hard to find typically occur in the condenser coil. Most anything at joints in the refrigeration piping within the unit or at the unit connections should be easy to find and repair. Are there brazed joints in the refrigerant lines that were replaced? Most installers use soft copper tubing packages, so unless the run is in excess of 50 ft, there shouldn't be any joints in the lines.

The First Company literature indicates the air handler and evaporator coil had only a 1 year warranty. If there's a leak in the evap coil and the rest of the unit is okay, then they should be able to replace just the evap coil rather than the entire unit.

Was the person who said they replace rather than checking for leaks an employee of the company who installed the equipment? Because the condensing unit is (should be) under warranty, I'd be hesitant to have another company working on it as that could provide wiggle room for the original installer to try to weasel out of the warranty.

Re the heat pump question, the sticker only indicates the evap coil has a heat pump type expansion valve installed. You could replace the outdoor unit with a heat pump condensing unit and have a heat pump system capable of use as you described, but as of now you have a cooling only condensing unit.

 

[bonneyman]

The line sets were new in 2017. I have another tech coming tomorrow and I told him what was done. He said that the entire system needs to be evacuated and filled with nitrogen to look for the leak. I told him that the other tech put 1 pound of R410-A into the system and that it leaked out after 4 days. He said that you can't top off R410A because it is a blended gas, and you don't know which of the 2 gasses has escaped. Sounds strange to me. I just did a google search, and what I have read is that is an old wives tale. Possibly it is to sell more products?

He's about half right. Refrigerant blends made up of 2 or more different components have what is called a "glide" when evaporating. each gas evaporates at a different temperature, so the higher temp component will boil off first in a leak. Repeated topping off of such a leaking system will - over time - result in an unknown refrigerant mixture remaining in the system.
But IIRC, when R410a was developed, it was designed with a very small temperature glide (1.5 deg), so leaks would not cause this. It acts almost like a single component gas. So long as you charge it with liquid only, you shouldn't have to worry too much about the glide being a problem. Adding charge as a vapor might exacerbate the glide problem to the point of what he's saying.

I found this page which explains it better.

Azeotrope Refrigerants vs. Zeotrope | HVAC Know It All

Learn the essential differences between azeotropic and zeotropic refrigerant blends, including fractionation, glide, and proper charging techniques for HVAC technicians.

www.hvacknowitall.com

Heck, back in the day we used to add R12 to R22 systems that were having oil return problems. Oil dissolves in the freon and circulates throughout the system. But if it got too cold, or had a vertical rise too high, or a line run too long, oil would stay out in the system and eventually the compressor would run low.
Oil dissolved much better in R12 at certain temperatures, so adding up to 10% of R12 usually solved lubrication return issues. Never once did I ever hear about a fractionation problem.

 

[yeldogt]

About 1/2 the time it ends up being the service ports ..

 

[Junkdrawer Dog]

Yes...the part last touched by human hands is often what's jacked up.

 

[bonneyman]

Yes...the part last touched by human hands is often what's jacked up.

That'd be real funny if the techs name was Jack!

 

[Junkdrawer Dog]

I'll start paying closer attention to the name badge on their shirt, lol!

 

[bonneyman]

I just said that because the last time I walked into a diner and yelled "Hey Bud" to my friend who was waiting for me 5 other guys turned to look at me.

 

[Junkman]

A knowledgeable service tech came today and put gauges on the unit. Apparently, the other "service" tech knows nothing about the job he went to school for. He only put one line on the unit, the suction or low side, and proceeded to put refrigerant into the unit. When the tech today put lines on both the high and low sides, he immediately said that the unit was shutting down on the high side, and it was overcharged. He diagnosed the problem as a dirty coil and pulled out all the refrigerant from the unit after cleaning the coil. It turned out to have 10 pounds 11 ounces in the system. The system calls for 5 pounds 6 ounces. After cleaning and recharging the unit, the unit performed perfectly. Considering that he came out on a Sunday, and spent 3 1/2 hours the charges for the repair were very reasonable. He charged $395 and cleaned and checked the second unit to make sure that it was working up to par. I hope that I will not need his repair services again, but I will have him on my list of recommended vendors should any of my neighbors need an HVAC service tech.
I still haven't received a bill from the company that installed the unit 5 years ago, but it is clear that the people that installed it 5 years ago are not working there today. Today, they have no one there that has even a remote idea of how to service refrigeration units. It also doesn't speak well for the vocational school where the first tech got his education. I guess he must have done a book report instead of learning the trade to graduate.

 

[Wrench97]

So you got a gas and go on a unit that wasn't low...............................
I'm sure the 1st tech knew just what he was there to do..........sell new units.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

A knowledgeable service tech came today and put gauges on the unit. Apparently, the other "service" tech knows nothing about the job he went to school for. He only put one line on the unit, the suction or low side, and proceeded to put refrigerant into the unit. When the tech today put lines on both the high and low sides, he immediately said that the unit was shutting down on the high side, and it was overcharged. He diagnosed the problem as a dirty coil and pulled out all the refrigerant from the unit after cleaning the coil. It turned out to have 10 pounds 11 ounces in the system. The system calls for 5 pounds 6 ounces. After cleaning and recharging the unit, the unit performed perfectly. Considering that he came out on a Sunday, and spent 3 1/2 hours the charges for the repair were very reasonable. He charged $395 and cleaned and checked the second unit to make sure that it was working up to par. I hope that I will not need his repair services again, but I will have him on my list of recommended vendors should any of my neighbors need an HVAC service tech.
I still haven't received a bill from the company that installed the unit 5 years ago, but it is clear that the people that installed it 5 years ago are not working there today. Today, they have no one there that has even a remote idea of how to service refrigeration units. It also doesn't speak well for the vocational school where the first tech got his education. I guess he must have done a book report instead of learning the trade to graduate.

Wow im not an HVAC tech but even I know you have to hookup both gauges to see how the pressures are running.

What a *****.

Did you get a discount for the 5Lbs that this tech removed? Im guessing they could sell it to someone that needs it

 

[bonneyman]

Wow im not an HVAC tech but even I know you have to hookup both gauges to see how the pressures are running.

What a *****.

Did you get a discount for the 5Lbs that this tech removed? Im guessing they could sell it to someone that needs it

In my normal servicing process I only hooked up the low pressure gauge. I only hooked up both gauges if I suspected a refrigerant problem. Hooking up the high (i.e. liquid) side unnecessarily means you "bleed" a 5 foot (for me) hose of liquid off of the system. That could affect the system performance.
Many newer techs are afraid of the high side, having heard stories of broken hoses whipping around like snakes taking an eye out or getting liquid freon on you and a bad burn. So they just avoid it if possible.

And if that company tries putting used refrigerant into someone else's system and gets caught, the Clean Air Act penalties and fines will be seriously expensive.

 

[Wrench97]

In my normal servicing process I only hooked up the low pressure gauge. I only hooked up both gauges if I suspected a refrigerant problem. Hooking up the high (i.e. liquid) side unnecessarily means you "bleed" a 5 foot (for me) hose of liquid off of the system. That could affect the system performance.
Many newer techs are afraid of the high side, having heard stories of broken hoses whipping around like snakes taking an eye out or getting liquid freon on you and a bad burn. So they just avoid it if possible.

And if that company tries putting used refrigerant into someone else's system and gets caught, the Clean Air Act penalties and fines will be seriously expensive.

Not all of course but a lot of guys today are using probes for that very reason.

 

[Junkman]

Today I got the bill for the first tech service. It came to $349.86. The breakdown of the charges was $150 for Service Labor and $178.97 for 1 pound of R410A refrigerant. I have no idea of what the retail price of a pound of refrigerant is, but considering that he didn't diagnose the problem. His diagnosis was that the unit needed refrigerant. How would you handle this? Your thoughts .. thanks

 

[u3b3rg33k]

Today I got the bill for the first tech service. It came to $349.86. The breakdown of the charges was $150 for Service Labor and $178.97 for 1 pound of R410A refrigerant. I have no idea of what the retail price of a pound of refrigerant is, but considering that he didn't diagnose the problem. His diagnosis was that the unit needed refrigerant. How would you handle this? Your thoughts .. thanks

show him the invoice and BOM from guy number two and tell him to pound sand. he did negative work and you should invoice them.

 

[Jim greengo]

Today I got the bill for the first tech service. It came to $349.86. The breakdown of the charges was $150 for Service Labor and $178.97 for 1 pound of R410A refrigerant. I have no idea of what the retail price of a pound of refrigerant is, but considering that he didn't diagnose the problem. His diagnosis was that the unit needed refrigerant. How would you handle this? Your thoughts .. thanks

Tell them to pound sand.

 

[yeldogt]

How dirty was the coil ... and why? Do you have a proper filter ? I'm assuming the coil is the inside ?

With the initial problem being on/off .. and then working for two days overcharged. I'm wondering if maybe it was undercharged and the guy then overcharged it ?

Unless it was overcharged on install and the sensor got touchy .... a dirty coil can case problems. Just seems odd that it's not working ... gets overcharged and works for two days.

 

[Junkman]

It was a cool day that the first service tech (actually the company service manager) added the charge. The day that the second tech came was very warm. He realized that it was overcharged immediately when he started the unit. He then examined the outside of the unit and determined that it was dirty. He proceeded to spray it with a detergent on both sides and then hosed it off. It clearly was quite dirty since it hadn't been cleaned since it was installed. Then he set the recovery bottle on the scale and started the vacuum pump and pumped it to a negative number and recorded the weight. He let it sit in a vacuum condition for about 15 minutes, and it didn't lose its vacuum reading, so he said there was no leak. He proceeded to charge the unit to the specified fill amount on the label of the unit and added some additional for the line set. He was watching both high and low pressures and also had recorded the ambient temperature. When he was done, he went into the home and checked the outlet temperature of the air coming out of the registers. Since we have 2 identical units he compared one with the other, and there was a 1-degree difference between the 2 units. As I mentioned previously, the second unit was cleaned that day and it was equally dirty. I have no idea why unit 2 failed to cool because of the dirty coil, and unit 1 is right next to it. The only thing that I can think of is the distance of the line sets is twice as long on unit 2 than on unit 1. Doesn't matter, and he guarantees his work and said to call should there be any additional problems.

 

[bonneyman]

Charging an A/C system properly is as much art and experience as science. It took me years to figure out exactly how to do it well. And still I had those occasional systems that just wouldn't "take" freon well. Most often it was something unknown to me at first, some little quirk that would throw operation off by an amount noticeable by the customer. See, they live in the home - and thus have more experience with their unit. Like with a car. You drive it everyday, and get used to how it feels and sounds. When something is "off" - like a new sound or response to the road - you'd immediately pick up on it. But the car mechanic drives it and says "I don't notice anything". A/C's are like that. So I'd go to a house and do my checks, and not really find anything blatantly abnormal. But the customer would say it just doesn't "feel" right. I'd start taking things apart, inspecting everything - starting with the most common quirks and working down to the rare items. And usually I'd find a little buggar in the end. lol

Charging the system when it's mild out side is a common mistake. I know units typically have charging charts that cover outdoor temps from 65 to 105. But systems were designed for ARI conditions - around 95 deg ambient outside, and 75 deg and 50% humidity inside. The further away from those parameters you go the more variables creep in that can adversely affect the operation. It's why I resisted customers calls to come out early in the year to "beat the rush" as temps were often too low to get an accurate charge. Most systems have a charge that's critical to within plus or minus 1 ounce. So you can see even a small amount of freon off can affect performance alot. I'd check out the system in March and say it was fine, then get a frantic call the first hot day in June and the customer would scream it was hot and didn't want to pay for a service call.

Line set lengths are another install variable that makes a big difference. The freon experiences friction along the inside of the copper tubes, and systems are designed with certain maximums that installers mustn't exceed. (For older R22 systems that was usually 60 linear feet and 15 vertical feet between the evap coil and compressor). More than that and capacity will drop off, especially at higher temps. Customers like units far away and out of sight, but sometimes those desires fight against performance. (Larger line sizes can help here but too big means causes it's own problems). Running lines uninsulated or poorly insulated through hot attics is another overlooked install aspect that can kill capacity. So I'm a bit hesitant to nuke the first tech - a service manager - as there's alot of stuff one has to know to do charging right.

Trane Corporation put out a manual that is superb in this regard. Every technician should own a copy. My dad recommended it, and I found it invaluable.

Trane Air Conditioning Manual

The Air Conditioning Manual by Trane covers all aspects of air conditioning in great detail. The A/C manual is written in a way which allows it to be used by the apprentice as well as by the experienced engineer, and the average contractor.

www.contractorcampus.com

 

[Norcal]

As to not being worth the time to find a leak, most HVAC companies are flat rate, the customer is given a fixed price for each task from their book, and the parts changer makes more if they get done quickly & on to the next mark, it's claimed people like flat rate because they know the price upfront, companies like it because high labor rates are built in the price, glad the OP had the problem resolved.

 

[American Locomotive]

If Tech 1 added 1 pound of gas, and the unit had 10 pounds when it needed ~5 pounds, then it was overcharged to begin with, and probably why it failed originally. The other system may not be as overcharged.

I would call Company 1, tell them what Company 2 found, and give them two options:

1) They completely wave their service fee and you two part ways
2) You pay the fee, and they agree to give you a 10 year compressor and coil replacement warranty to cover the damage the overcharging did.

 

[yeldogt]

If Tech 1 added 1 pound of gas, and the unit had 10 pounds when it needed ~5 pounds, then it was overcharged to begin with, and probably why it failed originally. The other system may not be as overcharged.

I would call Company 1, tell them what Company 2 found, and give them two options:

1) They completely wave their service fee and you two part ways
2) You pay the fee, and they agree to give you a 10 year compressor and coil replacement warranty to cover the damage the overcharging did.

That's what I am trying to figure out ?

Was the unit always overcharged and a combination of temp and dirty coil finally had it go off on high limit ? But -- then .. why would overcharging even more have it run for two days?

Want to hope for the OP that it's all fixed .... seems strange.

We had an ICP 2 ton unit at a vacation place about 100 miles from our primary that lost charge in strange ways. Unit was installed in the later 90's. It could be serviced and work for a year or more --- or loose charge in two months in the summer. Problem started late in the summer of the third year. It drove me nuts for about 5 years until it finally would not start ... sounded like a bucking bronco when it tried. The service company came out with two guys and told me it sounded like a connecting rod and not worth the labor to fix --- except, the compressor was a scroll?

I mentioned this to my local Carrier dealer who worked on all my stuff (personal and rental) and he agreed to give me a price to replace the unit as long as I was not in a hurry. It was the end of the summer. The unit was on the second floor. He called me a few weeks later to say another (bigger commercial) customer had a house in the area. He was sending one of his guys there in a few days and could he stop over to look at the job for pricing. The guy was early as the other job was a simple -- made him coffee and he says "let me hear the old one". He stands by the disconnect and pulls it after the thing bangs a few times. Next thing I know he is looking around and out come the gauges -- he had the thing purring along in no time. It had dropped charge again and with the evap on the second floor -- the compressor was fluid locked with oil as well. He also told me that it should have had a device or "s" in the pipe to protect the compressor when it was installed.

But -- whay was it leaking ? It was leaking because I had the unit serviced before the summer of that third year. In doing the check up one of the Schrader valves was damaged and sometimes it held for few months and sometimes for a year. So -- in servicing a perfectly fine system I introduced a problem. The service guy told me the valves are not like the old days and that was 25 years ago. Now -- when I have any work done I have them replace the valve inserts .... some companies try and rip you off for this ... it's very simple and cheap service if you discuss up front.

It's a very common leak point. It's another reason I don't touch working systems

 

[Junkman]

If Tech 1 added 1 pound of gas, and the unit had 10 pounds when it needed ~5 pounds, then it was overcharged to begin with, and probably why it failed originally. The other system may not be as overcharged.

I would call Company 1, tell them what Company 2 found, and give them two options:

1) They completely wave their service fee and you two part ways
2) You pay the fee, and they agree to give you a 10 year compressor and coil replacement warranty to cover the damage the overcharging did.

The first tech only hooked up the low pressure (blue) line to the unit and turned the refrigerant bottle over to give a liquid charge, but he didn't use a scale. His guesstimate was 1 pound, but it was 5 pounds. I guess that is why they charged $178.97 for the "one pound". I spoke to the tech this morning and told him that he misdiagnosed the problem, and what the problem was. He said to disregard the invoice and that he would take care of it on his end. The second tech actually uses a refrigerant scale to measure what he took out and what he put back.

 

[Junkman]

That's what I am trying to figure out ?

..........................

But -- way was it leaking ? It was leaking because I had the unit serviced before the summer of that third year. In doing the check up one of the Schrader valves was damaged and sometimes it held for 3 months and sometimes for a year. So -- in servicing a perfectly fine system I introduced a problem. The service guy told me the valves are not like the old days and that was 25 years ago. Now -- when I have any work done I have them replace the valve inserts .... some companies try and rip you off for this ... it's very simple and cheap service if you discuss up front.

It's a very common leak point.

When the second tech came, the final thing that he did was add something to the metal service cap that seals it against a leaking Schrader valve. He told me the name of the product is Nylog Blue. I looked it up on Amazon, where he said he buys it, and they also have a Red, but I wasn't sure exactly what the difference is. Do you know? thanks

 

[yeldogt]

When the second tech came, the final thing that he did was add something to the metal service cap that seals it against a leaking Schrader valve. He told me the name of the product is Nylog Blue. I looked it up on Amazon, where he said he buys it, and they also have a Red, but I wasn't sure exactly what the difference is. Do you know? thanks

They use that on flare fittings ... well -- some do.

The valve is like the one on a tire ....

 

[reader2580]

A Considering that he came out on a Sunday, and spent 3 1/2 hours the charges for the repair were very reasonable. He charged $395 and cleaned and checked the second unit to make sure that it was working up to par. I hope that I will not need his repair services again, but I will have him on my list of recommended vendors should any of my neighbors need an HVAC service tech.

Just over $100 an hour on a Sunday no less seems like a bargain to me. I don't think any legitimate HVAC company in the Minneapolis area has an hourly rate that low for a weekday call. Just the callout charge for Sunday service would probably be getting close to what you paid for almost four hours of work. An HVAC guy doing side work is about the only one who would charge as little as you paid.

I paid $329 just to have a my A/C condenser cleaned last summer on a weekday. I was stupid and never asked for the price and they never gave me the price either. I would have bought some coil cleaner and done it myself had I asked for the price beforehand. He spent less than 45 minutes on site. I realize the guy had to drive to my house and the coil cleaner cost something, but it felt like a total ripoff.

 

[Jim greengo]

As to not being worth the time to find a leak, most HVAC companies are flat rate, the customer is given a fixed price for each task from their book, and the parts changer makes more if they get done quickly & on to the next mark, it's claimed people like flat rate because they know the price upfront, companies like it because high labor rates are built in the price, glad the OP had the problem resolved.

I've never been a believer in flat rate pricing,every job is differant.

 

[428PI]

My son's ac wasn't cooling good. He called a company and a young guy came out and cleaned the condenser. He felt the lines and said it didn't need any freon. Didn't help a bit. Called again and an older guy came and out and all it needed was 1.5 lbs of freon (R22).

 

[Jim greengo]

My son's ac wasn't cooling good. He called a company and a young guy came out and cleaned the condenser. He felt the lines and said it didn't need any freon. Didn't help a bit. Called again and an older guy came and out and all it needed was 1.5 lbs of freon (R22).

What a differance 5 mins and a set of gauges makes.

 

[bonneyman]

I've never been a believer in flat rate pricing, every job is different.

Agreed.

I always felt that flat rate was unfair overall. Customers who don't take care of their equipment nor do regular maintenance most often have horrible units that require alot more cleaning and time spent. Concerned customers usually require less time doing such tasks, as their units are in better shape.
Flat rates are calculated for the company to make money on the worst case scenario job, so, most other customers pay more than they have to. Concerned customers overpay for regular services, while bad customers get "subsidized" for their behavior. With hourly, good customers pay less, as I could go through and do their services faster. Bad customers paid more, as it took me more time and effort to get their units ship shape. Just seemed more fair to me.

Although today - with the rates I saw working at my last temp job - most companies don't give a rip and just charge what they can get away with. And most customers are ignorant of what's going on, and just grumble and pay. And not just A/C. Auto repair, home repair, and plumbing are just as bad. It's horrible.

 

[bonneyman]

What a differance 5 mins and a set of gauges makes.

Gauges? What's that? lol

Maybe he had a calibrated thumb - he can tell the state of charge by feel? I think they used to call it "beer-can cold".