A/C Recovery equipment

[OlivierM]

Hi! First post here but I have been reading a lot before subscribing.

We are a 4 bay independant shop and up to now, we were refering customers to one of our neighbor when the cars needed a/c service. That neighbor is closing its doors soon and we would like to equip ourselves with what is necessary to repair a/c system in cars.

Can anyone help me identify what is really needed to do great jobs? I know that I need the A/C recovery machine (what brand do you prefer? Is the CPS FX3030 a good idea to service both 134 and 1234?), nitrogen bootle with adapters, leak detector and gas identifier, but what else?

Thanks for your help!

Olivier

 

[William Payne]

I can’t help you so feel free to glance over this post but could you not go down do your closing neighbour and either buy out their setup or at minimum see what they are using.

 

[cvairwerks]

Probably need to get your EPA ticket first, then you can see what you really need for each different refrigerant. Figure about 7-8K to set up for each different type.

 

[oilslick]

Isn’t that 1234yf backwards convertible to 134?

 

[consti2tion]

Isn’t that 1234yf backwards convertible to 134?

I believe so, key word here being CONVERTIBLE not compatible they cannot be mixed. The fittings on the vehicle are different from my experience and require you to buy another set of quick connects for your gauge set/recovery machine.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

Isn’t that 1234yf backwards convertible to 134?

No. You're thinking of putting 134a in an r12 system. Works okay. R12, 134a, and 1234yf all have different fittings.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

134 machine, ideally with flushable hoses if you're doing hybrids. Dye solution, leak detector.

YF is the same deal, just more cash. Do you see a lot of yf? Could be worth starting with just 134a and adding yf after you recoup some costs.


Gas detection with nitrogen or co2 is another cost and system entirely.

 

[jimindm]

When 134A was being phased in it was really comparable in price to the older R12. Then R12 went up and about everything was converted over to 134A. At the time if one was looking at purchasing ac equipment, it just didn't make sense to buy R12 equipment.

I think the big difference now is the Y1234 freon is so much more than the 134A that I do not see there will ever be the retrofits like the last time.

There is more and more use of the Y1234 freon systems out there and it will only be growing. As long as it has been out now, I think very few general repair shops have the full feature machines. I would guess that body shops will be the first start purchasing them.

All of the systems are different in connectivity and equipment. I am not sure how many AC jobs you see, but I would guess that 134A machine would cover you for a while. Until you can justify the ROI of a Y1234 machine.

I have seen a few new systems recently and I am thinking about just a line set and a vacuum pump for the few I have seen. Just the cost of the freon at this point is sort of holding me back from really wanting to deal with the new stuff.

 

[jimindm]

I agree with the above poster. Each task is sort of its own job. It takes different equipment for each one.

Having never done AC work, there will be a learning curve. Not to mention licensing to buy refrigerant.

 

[charbar]

I agree with going to said neighboring shop and just seeing if you can buy their A/C equipment. Buying everything you need all at once to cover 134 and 1234 is going to come with a hefty price tag. You could probably get by with just doing 134 for awhile and subbing out 1234 to a body shop or dealer, but eventually you're going to need 1234.

I don't know anything about the CPS unit you mentioned, never been around one. I only see one set of gauges and only one place at a time to hook hoses to......not sure how that works without cross contamination when going from a 134 car to a 1234 car. I recently priced a Snap On dual unit-two sets of gauges, hoses, etc.......it's $18K though.

Having said all that, I go though hundreds of lbs of freon through the summer months with nothing more than a portable vacuum pump, little freon scale, set of gauges and a dye injection gun. Granted, that's only when I'm out doing service calls in the field on heavy/ag equipment and I can't be in the shop with all the equipment. So, it CAN be done with pretty minimal tools if needed. Is it the right way? No, not really. But it works

And like cvairwerks said, you're going to need to get certified. Can't even buy drums of freon without a certification number.

Price of freon will make your ******** pucker now days too.

 

[bonneyman]

You auto mechanics doing AC these days have it freaking hard. I can't begin to think how much of a pain another new gas causes when added to the mix. It was bad enough with R-12 and R134a. Now you've got that new one - sheesh! Separate gauges, hoses, reclaimers, seals and gaskets. Holy molee I can't imagine how you poor wrench rats do it.

 

[charbar]

You auto mechanics doing AC these days have it freaking hard. I can't begin to think how much of a pain another new gas causes when added to the mix. It was bad enough with R-12 and R134a. Now you've got that new one - sheesh! Separate gauges, hoses, reclaimers, seals and gaskets. Holy molee I can't imagine how you poor wrench rats do it.

I joked to a couple friends that I should sell all the freon I have on hand for a healthy profit and then just quit doing A/C work.
Bought oodles of it last year for 90 bucks/30 lb drum and now in my area its pushing $400 for the exact same drum of it.

A/C work is great money though.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

You auto mechanics doing AC these days have it freaking hard. I can't begin to think how much of a pain another new gas causes when added to the mix. It was bad enough with R-12 and R134a. Now you've got that new one - sheesh! Separate gauges, hoses, reclaimers, seals and gaskets. Holy molee I can't imagine how you poor wrench rats do it.

R12 is dead, most of those cars are at the point the ac will never work again. Actually most have been crushed.

YF is still pricey enough most, non dealer and body shops, dont do it. Yes, YF has been out for 5+ years, almost 10 IIRC. Within the next 5 years shops are going to need to tool up for YF, simply due to the number of vehicles theyll turn away. Same deal as r12, every year you lose vehicles with the old stuff off the road, and gain vehicles with the new stuff.


IMO 99.9% of the reason shops dont want to do YF is they simply cannot competantly do AC work in the first place. This includes my employer by the way. Pumping leaking systems full of refrigerant every 10 months works fine when refrigerant is cheap. With 1234YF you need to find and actually repair the leaks. It's way too expensive to just vent to atmosphere. Most places I see just pump systems full, may not even put dye in them, and kick them out the door. This simply won't work with the economics of the new refrigerant.

 

[William Payne]

IMO 99.9% of the reason shops dont want to do YF is they simply cannot competantly do AC work in the first place.

This reminds me of what happened to some shops local to me 20 years ago when the time came that you couldn’t run a mechanic shop without computer diagnostics. The old car work dried up and they couldn’t do the new car work and they either lost or nearly lost their business. One place now advertises as a vintage car specialist.

I see it in many trades where an owner either doesn’t want to or can’t invest in new technologies and it negatively impacts their business as the industries change.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

This reminds me of what happened to some shops local to me 20 years ago when the time came that you couldn’t run a mechanic shop without computer diagnostics. The old car work dried up and they couldn’t do the new car work and they either lost or nearly lost their business. One place now advertises as a vintage car specialist.

I see it in many trades where an owner either doesn’t want to or can’t invest in new technologies and it negatively impacts their business as the industries change.

Unless the tech buys it out of his own pocket, most shops I've ever seen are like this. If you're lucky you get a 10, now probably 20 year out of date OTC genisys. They can't reset oil change lights, can't register batteries, calibrate sensors, can't do TPMS (not a big loss IMO), etc.

I've never seen a shop with a working AC sniffer either. They have some POS that's 10+ years old with the original sensing element and dead batteries. You could vent 134 straight out of the bottle and it wouldn't go off. I own two personally, which is why I do all the AC aside from dumping refrigerant in shitboxes.


YF will just kick the consumer in the balls in terms of price, and the regulators still won't do their job to keep it out of the atmosphere. Luckily AC is more price insensitive than brake lines or cords sticking out of tires. When August comes they'll pay no matter what to pump up their leaking system for 3 months before it's dead again.


Wait until the aftermarket has to fix ADAS. LMAO It'll be just like TPMS, every 10 year old vehicle has a fault light on the dash, never to be fixed. Most drivers of systems with working TPMS dont' care and drive with 20psi in all the tires anyways.

 

[consti2tion]

R12 is dead, most of those cars are at the point the ac will never work again. Actually most have been crushed.

YF is still pricey enough most, non dealer and body shops, dont do it. Yes, YF has been out for 5+ years, almost 10 IIRC. Within the next 5 years shops are going to need to tool up for YF, simply due to the number of vehicles theyll turn away. Same deal as r12, every year you lose vehicles with the old stuff off the road, and gain vehicles with the new stuff.


IMO 99.9% of the reason shops dont want to do YF is they simply cannot competantly do AC work in the first place. This includes my employer by the way. Pumping leaking systems full of refrigerant every 10 months works fine when refrigerant is cheap. With 1234YF you need to find and actually repair the leaks. It's way too expensive to just vent to atmosphere. Most places I see just pump systems full, may not even put dye in them, and kick them out the door. This simply won't work with the economics of the new refrigerant.

Maybe that's what their goal is with the high prices, to motivate people to spend the money to fix the leaks rather than just let it leak into the atmosphere.