How safe is this hookup going to be?

[dougf]

Hi everyone,

Thank you all ahead of time for your time in reading and replying. This forum is a wealth of information. With the being said, I have searched quite a bit and haven't found this question, perhaps I'm not phrasing things right and I'm looking for guidance. I have a little experience with installing some 220 outlets for an air compressor/welder, etc.. but nothing of this nature.

I have a 20x30 shop I would like to get 70 amps out to. This pole is the same distance as to my sub panel in my garage for the house as to my shop, which is 200ft. I have intent on digging my trench, laying my conduit, and doing the connection with 2-2-4 stranded aluminum myself (still researching this, perhaps I need 4 wires but I'm still in the research phase and some of this seems convoluted still).

I popped the panel off last night to take a look and understand things a bit better. Look pretty simple for me to turn my breakers off, make the connection, and turn everything back on. One thing I cant really decipher yet is how safe it is for me to be connecting to the ground/neutral bus bar on the left. Do I need the poco to completely turn power off or will flipping the breaker, and working very carefully suffice? Thank you.

 

[65Goat]

I was expecting another kind of hookup story.

 

[nadogail]

The Ground and Neutral connections should be at Zero Volts, measured with your trusted meter. If you find a voltage on the Ground or the Neutral, you have in my opinion, a serious problem.

 

[dougf]

The Ground and Neutral connections should be at Zero Volts, measured with your trusted meter. If you find a voltage on the Ground or the Neutral, you have in my opinion, a serious problem.

Thanks, I didn't know if there were any different rules for neutrals on the pole. Thanks.

 

[ycgoat]

To come off the 200 amp breaker You are going to have to use 200 amp wire, unless i am missing something in the pic and set up

 

[PCustoms]

To come off the 200 amp breaker You are going to have to use 200 amp wire, unless i am missing something in the pic and set up

I think tap rules will apply?

 

[ycgoat]

I don’t think there is a 200’ tap rule

 

[mike93lx]

I am confused on the 3 wire feed since there is a disconnect. How long has that been there? Doesn't look old

 

[Bert_]

To come off the 200 amp breaker You are going to have to use 200 amp wire, unless i am missing something in the pic and set up

I don’t think there is a 200’ tap rule

Outside taps are unlimited length. This is extremely common to have one large main and multiple taps to each building.

There is nothing to worry about once the main is off. The connections that remain hot are fairly well shielded.

 

[sparky 1971]

I am confused on the 3 wire feed since there is a disconnect. How long has that been there? Doesn't look old

It's probably an old feed with a new meter main. I see it all the time around where I live, but not necessarily where I work. The POCO supplies the meter mains and they are slowly but surely upgrading from the old Wadsworth fused meters.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Hi everyone,

Thank you all ahead of time for your time in reading and replying. This forum is a wealth of information. With the being said, I have searched quite a bit and haven't found this question, perhaps I'm not phrasing things right and I'm looking for guidance. I have a little experience with installing some 220 outlets for an air compressor/welder, etc.. but nothing of this nature.

I have a 20x30 shop I would like to get 70 amps out to. This pole is the same distance as to my sub panel in my garage for the house as to my shop, which is 200ft. I have intent on digging my trench, laying my conduit, and doing the connection with 2-2-4 stranded aluminum myself (still researching this, perhaps I need 4 wires but I'm still in the research phase and some of this seems convoluted still).

you need 4-wire since there is a disconnect at the meter.

If the existing feeder was installed under the 2008 or newer code cycle then it is wrong as it needs to be 4-wire as well.

I popped the panel off last night to take a look and understand things a bit better. Look pretty simple for me to turn my breakers off, make the connection, and turn everything back on. One thing I cant really decipher yet is how safe it is for me to be connecting to the ground/neutral bus bar on the left. Do I need the poco to completely turn power off or will flipping the breaker, and working very carefully suffice? Thank you.

nope you dont. neutral bar should be at same potential as the earth youre standing on. both the neutral and EGC from your new feeder will terminate on the neutral bar.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

It's probably an old feed with a new meter main. I see it all the time around where I live, but not necessarily where I work. The POCO supplies the meter mains and they are slowly but surely upgrading from the old Wadsworth fused meters.

those feeder wires look pretty new to me and i doubt you would find conductors like that on an old vintage fused service. they didnt have wire like that back then

 

[mike93lx]

It's probably an old feed with a new meter main. I see it all the time around where I live, but not necessarily where I work. The POCO supplies the meter mains and they are slowly but surely upgrading from the old Wadsworth fused meters.

That wire looks pretty fresh to me, but you have probably seen a couple more of these than I have.

 

[dougf]

Thank you all so much! I’ll do the 4 wire feed (even though my house doesn’t have it lol) This house was built within the last year in Missouri, our County (Pulaski) is on an old NEC (can’t find it right now) but will do the 4 wire feed regardless for safety.

Thanks for helping and not dragging my nuts through broken glass, even though I probably deserve it.

 

[dougf]

Thanks again

 

[mike93lx]

Thank you all so much! I’ll do the 4 wire feed (even though my house doesn’t have it lol) This house was built within the last year in Missouri, our County (Pulaski) is on an old NEC (can’t find it right now) but will do the 4 wire feed regardless for safety.

Thanks for helping and not dragging my nuts through broken glass, even though I probably deserve it.

I find it hard to believe they are old enough to allow a 3 wire. I bet it was missed in inspection

 

[sparky 1971]

those feeder wires look pretty new to me and i doubt you would find conductors like that on an old vintage fused service. they didnt have wire like that back then

That wire looks pretty fresh to me, but you have probably seen a couple more of these than I have.

Now that I see it on my big screen rather than my 8" tablet, you're probably right.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Thank you all so much! I’ll do the 4 wire feed (even though my house doesn’t have it lol) This house was built within the last year in Missouri, our County (Pulaski) is on an old NEC (can’t find it right now) but will do the 4 wire feed regardless for safety.

Thanks for helping and not dragging my nuts through broken glass, even though I probably deserve it.

you should find out what nec cycle theyre on. highly doubt its 2005.... if its 2008 or newer then the person who did the electrical for your house screwed up

 

[yatg]

Think you need to add a GEC and a couple of rods too.

 

[Innovate1]

you should find out what nec cycle theyre on. highly doubt its 2005.... if its 2008 or newer then the person who did the electrical for your house screwed up

No idea if this is the case at the OPs location but some rural areas have no inspections. I lived in a county in Indiana like that. I upgraded my service to 200A and they just sent out a couple workmen to hook it up. They didn't even want to look at anything. I'm sure that makes for some "interesting" installations.

 

[mike93lx]

No idea if this is the case at the OPs location but some rural areas have no inspections. I lived in a county in Indiana like that. I upgraded my service to 200A and they just sent out a couple workmen to hook it up. They didn't even want to look at anything. I'm sure that makes for some "interesting" installations.

The POCO doesn't do inspections and they have different rules on their end anyway

 

[Innovate1]

The POCO doesn't do inspections and they have different rules on their end anyway

I understand that. Most places before hookup they want to see a sticker that someone else inspected it. My point was no inspections AT ALL. No permits - there wasn't anywhere to get one if you wanted to. Only thing that there were permits for was septic systems because that was a state issue.

 

[mrvm]

I was expecting another kind of hookup story.

Speaking from experience these hookups can be memorable, life-changing and extremely awesome but like the OP’s hookup the spark could flicker if the connections come up short

 

[wyliesdiesels]

No idea if this is the case at the OPs location but some rural areas have no inspections. I lived in a county in Indiana like that. I upgraded my service to 200A and they just sent out a couple workmen to hook it up. They didn't even want to look at anything. I'm sure that makes for some "interesting" installations.

just because its not being inspected doesnt mean it shouldnt be done to code.

Also, PoCos have nothing to do with inspecting for NEC code compliance. they dont even have to follow the NEC code. they have their own rules they play by.

 

[sparky 1971]

just because its not being inspected doesnt mean it shouldnt be done to code.

Also, PoCos have nothing to do with inspecting for NEC code compliance. they dont even have to follow the NEC code. they have their own rules they play by.

This was at my own house when I got rid of 200' of overhead wire and two poles that were in my yard by going underground. I had already trenched the feeders for the house and garage out to the transformer pole where the new POCO supplied meter main would go and had the pipes and conductors sticking up. I was planning on using the center 2" knockout for the 200 amp feed to the house and punching another 2" for the 100 amp garage feed as well as the generator conductors on the right side. The barrier for and underground utility feed was on the left. The POCO shows up with everything already put together, mast head, conductors, everything is hanging out of a bucket truck. I walked over with my 2" KO cutter and a drill to make a knockout for the garage side and the lead guys says eff that and takes the barrier out and throws it away. They set it so the house feed comes in on the utility side and the garage comes in the center. About that time the state inspector shows up and tells me I can't do that because it violates the listing. I told him I didn't do that, they did and pointed at the two linemen that were standing about 6' away. The lead guy just smiled and waved. The inspector just said there's nothing I can do about what they did, just don't be doing that yourself and got in his truck and left.

 

[Innovate1]

just because its not being inspected doesnt mean it shouldnt be done to code.

Also, PoCos have nothing to do with inspecting for NEC code compliance. they dont even have to follow the NEC code. they have their own rules they play by.

But it could explain why the wire looks new enough that it should have been done to later standards. Not really anything about the POCO but the fact that there may not be inspections or even permits.

 

[alfredeneuman]

The POCO doesn't do inspections and they have different rules on their end anyway

PoCos do inspect some bigger installations.
Their scope is limited to making sure the service meets there installation requirements and pulling a mandrel (piece of cylindrical metal with a slightly less diameter than the inside of the conduit) to check for distortions or crushing.

 

[Norcal]

Some areas the only "inspection" is the PoCo, one CO OP in Arkansas would NOT allow a Ufer, wanted a ground rod only, & wish the photo had turned out of a service there had turned out, 100A meter can outside, 4/0 AL TW or THW conductors to a 200A panel, the ungrounded conductors are white, the grounded (neutral) is black, the SE conductors are not in conduit, &has been that way since the 1970's.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

But it could explain why the wire looks new enough that it should have been done to later standards. Not really anything about the POCO but the fact that there may not be inspections or even permits.

since when does a PoCo run branch feeder wire? never heard of a PoCo doing that. remember this is on the load side of the breaker... PoCos responsibility stopes at the weatherhead connections

 

[Bert_]

since when does a PoCo run branch feeder wire? never heard of a PoCo doing that. remember this is on the load side of the breaker... PoCos responsibility stopes at the weatherhead connections

It's not all that simple. The electric co-ops do lots of stuff for members. You might not have any co-ops where you work but they are common in more rural areas.

Some still supply all the meter equipment, sometimes that includes a main either with or without over current protection. They will usually sell wire, poles, ect to members at cost.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

It's not all that simple. The electric co-ops do lots of stuff for members. You might not have any co-ops where you work but they are common in more rural areas.

Some still supply all the meter equipment, sometimes that includes a main either with or without over current protection. They will usually sell wire, poles, ect to members at cost.

actually there is 8 co-ops within 1.5hrs radius of me and none of them do any of that....

 

[dougf]

I wanted to thank everyone who took the time out of their busy day to reply and assist me with completing this. I got the power hooked up yesterday. I learned a good bit along the way and generally did things the hard way, but it all went well.

I did learn that outside of any city limits there are no inspections or rules in Pulaski County, Missouri. Its kind of an anything goes environment, which explains my new construction having the three wire feed and the neutral/ground bond in the house. Something I should get fixed eventually I suppose.

 

[mike93lx]

I wanted to thank everyone who took the time out of their busy day to reply and assist me with completing this. I got the power hooked up yesterday. I learned a good bit along the way and generally did things the hard way, but it all went well.

I did learn that outside of any city limits there are no inspections or rules in Pulaski County, Missouri. Its kind of an anything goes environment, which explains my new construction having the three wire feed and the neutral/ground bond in the house. Something I should get fixed eventually I suppose.

There are rules. They just aren't inspected, so some choose to disregard them

 

[dcg9381]

There are rules. They just aren't inspected, so some choose to disregard them

This is correct. Counties should have references to the particular building codes and NEC that they recognize. They just don't require inspection.

Wouldn't you have a 3-wire feed normally with a ground/neutral bond at the "main panel" if you're coming off the meter and the main panel is on the house?

 

[mike93lx]

This is correct. Counties should have references to the particular building codes and NEC that they recognize. They just don't require inspection.

Wouldn't you have a 3-wire feed normally with a ground/neutral bond at the "main panel" if you're coming off the meter and the main panel is on the house?

As long as the house panel is the first means of disconnect. If it has a disconnect at the meter, that makes the house a sub and requires a 4 wire feed