Mini split service call.

[jjrbus]

Is it me?

3 year old Daikin mini split DIY install. Not cooling. Checked Daikin site and was directed to local Daikin dealer. $150 for diagnosis, tech shows up and puts on gauges, says I am low on 134a and will add correct amount for $130 lb. No mention of looking for leak.

OK, how will you add I ask. I will add until I get the correct pressure and something about super heat. Still no mention of looking for leak. Side note, has a tank of 134a ready to hook up but no scale.

That is not how you add to a mini, the charge is critical I tell him. Looking annoyed and angry he responds this is how we do all mini splits. Not how you are doing mine, I want it evacuated and the charge weighted in.

I will have to call the office and get a price, calls and tells me if that is how I want it done to get another company! Packs up his stuff and tells me that will be $150. I try to be nice and tell him no way no how am I paying him a penny!

Am I wrong?

 

[Rc_Guy]

Yes

 

[American Locomotive]

Full disclosure: I am extremely biased after dealing with countless hack HVAC/Plumbing people that have no idea what they're doing, including one that almost killed my parents with his ineptitude.

So: No, you are not wrong.

1) Not even suggesting checking for leaks, when it's probably just one of the flare fittings. Gas doesn't just magically disappear. The fact he didn't even mention it?
First sign of hackery.

2) Minisplits use EEV/EXVs, these are electronically controlled valves whose purpose is to maintain the correct superheat across the evaporator. Your charge could be way off, and the superheat still read correctly on the gauge set. It gets even more complicated since minisplits typically have a variable speed compressor and indoor fan to help maintain specific evaporator temperatures.
Second sign of hackery.

3) Just straight up refusing to evacuate and weigh in a new charge? That just proves they're a gas-n-go company. Why wouldn't they want more billable hours? Oh that's right, because they have 40 more calls scheduled that day where they told the customer "it's probably just low on gas, we can be there today".
Third strike, you're out.

Whatever dealer you called is just a hack "gas-n-go" company. They're not interested in fixing your problem. They want to spend 20 minutes tops at your house and move on to the next one as soon as possible. Then wait for you to call back next year when the system is flat again.

While I'm not one to cheat trades out of their "diagnostic fee", I think I would have told the dude to go pound sand after potentially damaging my system with his proposed completely incorrect charging method. I'll give him his $150, but I'm calling every single person at Daikin and letting them know one of their dealers is ignoring every piece of service documentation and literature, and charging their minisplits like they're an old 8 SEER split system from 1988.

Also, are you sure the tech said R134a? Most splits are r410a.

 

[Iron Beaver]

I think the fee is reasonable. But as @American Locomotive said, there are many red flags of hackery.

 

[fitter30]

Are sure its not 410A refrigerant? Doesn't matter if it's short needs to be leak check if leak isn't found would recommend a stop leak made by Rectorseal ac freeze that I've had good luck with. Reclaimed ,evacuated then recharged with the correct weight.

 

[jjrbus]

Congratulations, the 134a was a test and the forum passed with flying colors. Hackery is why I have 3 mini splits instead of central air. I am in SW Fl and it is horrible trying to find decent service here. The storys I could tell the last 20 years I have been here, some of which if you told me I would have a hard time believing!!

Thanks for the input I feel better now.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Also, are you sure the tech said R134a? Most splits are r410a.

If the tech said that, he's a hack...

 

[jjrbus]

In Florida it takes 30 days and $2000 to become a tech!

 

[Balvar24]

He did the diagnosis. Pay the man $150.

Don't like his solution? Send him down the road and start over.

 

[acmikee]

Doesn't matter if it's short needs to be leak check if leak isn't found would recommend a stop leak made by Rectorseal ac freeze
DO NOT USE ANY STOP LEAK on a ductless split

 

[Doozer75]

...

2) Minisplits use EEV/EXVs, these are electronically controlled valves whose purpose is to maintain the correct superheat across the evaporator....

What electronic valves ? ? ? ? ?

-Doozer

 

[American Locomotive]

What electronic valves ? ? ? ? ?

-Doozer

Air conditioning systems need something called an "expansion device" - something to create a restriction. Old systems just used a big coil of really thin tubing or a chunk of metal with a very precise hole drilled in it. Newer systems used something called a TXV, which is a mechanical valve that can adjust the restriction as necessary. The newest systems (and most mini splits) use an electronically controlled expansion valve.

 

[Doozer75]

Why would a design use an electronic expansion valve when using a fixed orifice and a variable speed compressor is much more efficient ? ? ?

-Doozer

 

[American Locomotive]

Modern mini splits combine variable speed compressors, electronic expansion valves, and variable indoor fan speed to maximize efficiency and comfort over a wide variety of operating ranges.

 

[Doozer75]

Ok cool. Thanks for entertaining my questions.
I have installed 3 Mitsubishi mini splits and I
know the compressors and fans are variable
speed, I never knew maybe they have a electronic
expansion valve. I assumed they had a fixed
orifice, but I never looked that close. Honestly
I never heard of a EEV before, but I am learning
all the time. Google image search shows a lot
of them. Are they used in commercial refrigeration?
Interesting. They must be a recent innovation in
the industry. I used to build servo valves for
avionics after I graduated college for a little bit.
They seem to have 2 coils, so I bet they operate
simmilar to servo hydraulic valves. Thanks for
the info.

--Doozer

 

[American Locomotive]

Yes, EEVs are used in commercial refrigeration as well. A 60-ton industrial process chiller system I ordered for a previous employer had EEVs. They've been on the market for quite a while (at least 20+ years)

 

[metlmunchr]

The first unit I installed with EEVs was a 110 ton air cooled Carrier chiller on a university library building in 1997. At that time, EEVs used stepper motors as the actuators. I've been out of the HVAC business for several years and haven't kept up with current technology, but I'd imagine steppers are still used as it's a near perfect application for them since they move in discrete angular steps without the use of optical encoders or other position feedback devices as used by servo motors.

FWIW, there's nothing particularly efficient about fixed orifice metering devices. Compared to the thermostatic element type expansion valves they replaced about 50 years ago, they're dirt cheap and they work okay. Cheap is what counts in high volume production of consumer products. Works okay may not mean optimal performance, but so long as it's cheap, okay is good enough.

 

[mrpizza]

He did the diagnosis. Pay the man $150.

Don't like his solution? Send him down the road and start over.

He didn't diagnose why it was low on gas.

 

[Balvar24]

He didn't diagnose why it was low on gas.

Nope. That costs extra.

 

[mrpizza]

That's a company i wouldn't do business with.

 

[Balvar24]

That's a company i wouldn't do business with.

Agree

 

[bonneyman]

Sadly, the majority of A/C companies out there now are just into profit. Doing the job right because of a strong work ethic is just not common. Not to insult any techs out there, but most consumers just don't have ready access to solid techs.

 

[Balvar24]

Sadly, the majority of A/C companies out there now are just into profit. Doing the job right because of a strong work ethic is just not common. Not to insult any techs out there, but most consumers just don't have ready access to solid techs.

Have you seen how many skin-flints post in these forums? Sadly, people don't have access because sadly, they don't want to pay for it.

Combine that with every self important sap with a do-nothing degree is telling your kids they won't amount to anything if they don't go to college and go into the trades.

 

[bonneyman]

Have you seen how many skin-flints post in these forums? Sadly, people don't have access because sadly, they don't want to pay for it.

Combine that with every self important sap with a do-nothing degree is telling your kids they won't amount to anything if they don't go to college and go into the trades.

Oh, definitely agree with you here. People want the world and will only pay peanuts.

But skilled ethical technicians are out there. Problem is once they get known they are insanely busy. That's why I pushed maintenance before the breakdown to my customers.

 

[American Locomotive]

Have you seen how many skin-flints post in these forums? Sadly, people don't have access because sadly, they don't want to pay for it.

Combine that with every self important sap with a do-nothing degree is telling your kids they won't amount to anything if they don't go to college and go into the trades.

...have you seen the prices the trades are charging these days? $2000 for basic water heater change outs, $6,000 to install single head minisplits, $12,000 to replace condenser+air handler, when the retail cost of the units are ~$4,000. $8,000 in labor for a days worth for work two guys, 50 feet of copper lineset, and some R410a. Uh huh.

Then you find out they actually just re-used that old clapped out R22 line set, didn't pressure test, pulled a vacuum for 30 minutes without using a micron gauge, charged based on superheat even though the unit has a TXV, and didn't even bother checking air flow or supply temps. Then the guy smirks as you as he tells you "yeah you'll be lucky to get 10 years out of these new systems", after he did a shoddy install that will almost certainly dramatically decrease system life.

Then on top of that, the plumbing and HVAC industry is very protectionist. They won't tell you how to do basic service/maintenance yourself, and they'll even defend & protect other hacks. They don't want to "steal customers from other techs", they get mad if you had someone else replace your system when you do their service/maintenance.

Many charge ungodly amounts of money, do garbage work, and then wonder why people absolutely hate dealing with plumbers and HVAC techs. People like to blame only burnouts going into the trades, but this stuff starts at the top. Pretty much every state requires some kind of apprenticeship program to do HVAC work, so these are kids learning this hack stuff from 50-60 year old "Masters".

There are good shops and good techs out there who truly care about their work, but they are few and far between - and are always busy.

 

[jjrbus]

I was spoiled, in NY I knew a couple construction guys. If I needed something and they told me hire Joe, I did not even bother getting another bid, I hired Joe. For the last 20 years here in Florida it is just one hack after another. I have learned as much as I can about AC so I do not get ripped off.

 

[jjrbus]

Soap and water at flairs showed no leaks. I purchased some of the high tech commercial leak detector and still no sign of leaks at flairs, however I do not know what psi in system is. I can draw down system into condensor and nitrogen test. I would really rather pay someone to do this.

 

[metlmunchr]

I will have to call the office and get a price, calls and tells me if that is how I want it done to get another company! Packs up his stuff and tells me that will be $150. I try to be nice and tell him no way no how am I paying him a penny!

Am I wrong?

No, you aren't wrong at all. He didn't diagnose the problem. The fact that the unit was out of gas is a symptom. The problem is a leak, and he obviously had no intention of trying to find it.

The idea of some folks here that the OP should pay this ***** $150 for showing up is laughable. That does nothing but perpetuate the problem of incompetent hacks dispatched by company owners whose business ethics are lower than whale ****. Anyone with enough knowledge of the trade to recognize a hack and send him down the road without one cent for his efforts is doing the public a favor. If it happened more often, perhaps some of these thieves who disguise themselves as HVAC contractors would be driven out of business, and that would be a good thing.

I'm as biased on this as American Locomotive says he is, but from a different perspective. In the years I spent in the trade, I spent more time than I care to remember undoing messes made by the same sort of hacks. We didn't do residential work, but the same sort of hackery exists in commercial settings, primarily on work done by residential types who feel the need to spread their incompetence past the borders of residential work. You dream up a way that a system can be screwed up, either at installation or by service hackery, or both, and I've likely seen it. In more than a few cases, correcting all the problems approached or even exceeded the original price of the installation.

Honestly, working behind some crew of imbeciles and attempting to turn their messes into working systems is the most aggravating work of any in this trade. Our approach was straightforward. We ain't cheap, but you've got cheap now and you know what it's worth. For the ones who obviously wanted a cheap fix, more than once I offered to give them a list of half a dozen outfits who are cheap and even worse than the ones who made the mess you've got now.

Also, in some cases, I'd look over what was there and conclude there was no good outcome possible short of tearing out everything but the equipment itself and starting over. Given that as the only option, the answer was predictable. If the building was a rental, the landlord would say he couldn't spend that kind of money. In an owner occupied building, the answer was more likely to be When can you start?

 

[American Locomotive]

Soap and water at flairs showed no leaks. I purchased some of the high tech commercial leak detector and still no sign of leaks at flairs, however I do not know what psi in system is. I can draw down system into condensor and nitrogen test. I would really rather pay someone to do this.

Leaks are common around service ports, king valves, flare connections and U-bends on the coil. You may need to put the unit into heating to get pressures high enough for the flares to leak.

 

[jjrbus]

I was spoiled, in NY I knew a couple construction guys. If I needed something and they told me hire Joe, I did not even bother getting another bid, I hired Joe. For the last 20 years here in Florida it is just one hack after another. I have learned as much as I can about AC so I do not get ripped off.

Leaks are common around service ports, king valves, flare connections and U-bends on the coil. You may need to put the unit into heating to get pressures high enough for the flares

 

[RoninB4]

Going through all this right now. Already gouged by one business owner and the reps of most others in this area are bad. I'm doing all the load calculations to better inform myself if DIY is my only recourse. Being limited on what I'm "allowed" to purchase isn't making it any easier. Would likely be willing to pay for professional install (quoted already at $27,000 for 2400 sq. ft. house) if an honest installer/company operated in this area. It's the Wild West here in SE Tn. and certs mean little here.

 

[jjrbus]

Thanks for the response. Not knowing how much gas is in the system I am leary of running the system and damaging something. I am thinking draw down the system and charge with nitrogen, which I suspect would be less damaging? I stopped by a parts distributor that I have bought from before for a reference but they are out of business.

Going through all this right now. Already gouged by one business owner and the reps of most others in this area are bad. I'm doing all the load calculations to better inform myself if DIY is my only recourse. Being limited on what I'm "allowed" to purchase isn't making it any easier. Would likely be willing to pay for professional install (quoted already at $27,000 for 2400 sq. ft. house) if an honest installer/company operated in this area. It's the Wild West here in SE Tn. and certs mean little here.

I had 13 estimates for central air install, yes 13! 2 of which knew what they were talking about. The vast majority I started to call drive by estimates of 3 or 4 thousand dollars for a 3 ton unit with the original duct work. Duct work was a mess! We will install the unit and then see what to do with duct work was the answer!!! Anyway multiple manual J and the 2 knowledgeable estimates showed 2 1/2 ton would be ideal. Plus I had a 2 1/2 ton that was doing just fine keeping the house cool.

As I read about AC and had lived with minis in Asia it became apparent in my situation minis would be the way to go.

Call an HVAC distributor in your area and see if they will recommend anyone.

 

[Tracs]

I had 13 estimates for central air install, yes 13!

Seems excessive.

 

[Steve W.]

...have you seen the prices the trades are charging these days? $2000 for basic water heater change outs, $6,000 to install single head minisplits, ...

I guess I should feel lucky. I just got a quote to install a two-zone mini-split in my shop. $3750. And that is to install a unit that I would purchase and have sitting there for them to install.

.

 

[jjrbus]

$3750 to install?? Plus you buy the unit?

 

[jjrbus]

Seems excessive.

Excessive yes, ridiculous yes. But trying to find one who knows what they are doing. One example within 5 min of being at my house telling me it would be stupid to get a permit for this job, you will just be wasting your money.

I will have to ask at the office I do not know what a manual D is.

Wanting to put 3 ton unit in on duct work that was likely for 2 ton and currently working well with 2 1/2 ton. I been at this for 20 years and you must put a 3 ton in or you will be sorry!

We will put the unit in ($3-$4000) and then worry about the duct work.

On and on ad nausium.

 

[RoninB4]

I will have to ask at the office I do not know what a manual D is.

The "D" manual is for designing ductwork. Have done the "J" for load calculations, it's strongly suggested to go through the less difficult "S" calculations BEFORE the "D". The S is for sizing/specifying the equipment. Have the J and D manuals, waiting in the S to arrive. You don't have to purchase them as they are expensive, we've rented them until December for about $30. Would have gone with mini-splits and installed them myself but concerned about the build quality and longevity of them. They haven't been on the market here long enough to form an opinion. In a garage/shop/offie sure but the entire house? Don't think there's enough field reports to determine. JMO.

 

[jjrbus]

If you and I know what the J, D and S manuals are, wouldn't you think the guy shows up in the fancy wrapped van should not have to ask at the office what they are.

 

[RoninB4]

If you and I know what the J, D and S manuals are, wouldn't you think the guy shows up in the fancy wrapped van should not have to ask at the office what they are.

Don't know about your state but here (Tn.) I just read that a "tech" needs no certs or licensing, maybe the 3 hour EPA course for gas. The project is "supposed to be" supervised by a state licensed contractor but he's likely the company owner and is out of the office in meetings with developers or scouting more expensive projects. The homeowner gets some under-qualified tech following the owner's rehearsed sales pitch. Hate to say it but I rather doubt the average homeowner gets the benefit of any info from any of the manuals, too many stories of "rule of thumb" being used. ACCA manuals are only for the expensive commercial projects, well-to-do gated communities, and both are charged accordingly for the time involved using them. Some HVAC people are putting out videos openly critical of what the others have done to the trade through shoddy workmanship, deceptive sales practices, and outright laziness by not attempting the calculations.

Since this project began I have learned a couple of things:
1) Proper HVAC design is far more than I anticipated. I have even greater respect than before for those in the field trying to do good work
2) Most in this area (and beyond...) are either incompetent, lazy, predators, suffer from the Dunning-Kruger effect, or a combination of all.