Right - it's giving their customers the finger. That's exactly what they're doing...
Whats going on with sk tools.?
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bob15
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Do you know how many products are made in the States and the company's owners are foreign? Everything from food to booze to tools to auto's to farm and industrial equipment to sporting, hunting and fishing gear.
Your statement is kinda pointless......
I'm not sure you understand my point. Tell me what you think it is.
VolvoRyan
Well-known member
I think you missed his point.
Anyhoo, the flip side is how many "American" products are stuffed full of foreign goodies. The Kentucky Ford Truck Plant has a zillion new trucks migrating all over Louisville while they wait for foreign-sourced brains. Meanwhile, the trucks are cooking in the hot Kentucky sun and enjoying the hot/cold condensation cycles that vehicles love. Those will be sold "new". But that's not a middle-finger to their customer base.
-Ryan
reader2580
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Is there an American source for car electronics these days? Some of the car manufacturers made their own silicon in the early days of chips in cars, but those days are long gone.
How are pickups sitting waiting for parts any different than back in the day when a pickup might sit on a dealer’s lot for several months waiting to be sold?
How are pickups sitting waiting for parts any different than back in the day when a pickup might sit on a dealer’s lot for several months waiting to be sold?
VolvoRyan
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Some sort of political initiative was just passed to try and invigorate domestic production in light of all that's going on in the world.
When I was moving from Ohio to Indiana last year (Ironically, hauling parts cars with an F-250 Super Duty), I made a ton of trips through the boonies between Cincinati and Louisville. Ford had thousands and thousands of trucks in fields and unpaved lots fields. Bumper to bumper, fender to fender. It's been an amazing sight. In town, they had to move one stash from Churchill Downs so the Kentucky Derby could happen.
-Ryan
d.mcfarland
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Personal SK update that may help others.
Needed a rebuild kit for a 1/4" ratchet that was my fathers. I fill out the online form and a week later get an email saying they need me to mail them the ratchet for warranty.
That seems pretty normal, but (in my opinion) all good ratchet manufacturers provide repair kits to users.
Needed a rebuild kit for a 1/4" ratchet that was my fathers. I fill out the online form and a week later get an email saying they need me to mail them the ratchet for warranty.
That seems pretty normal, but (in my opinion) all good ratchet manufacturers provide repair kits to users.
You need the tiny bits to make the bigger components. The tiny stuff is made overseas while some American companies build in house in USA, but a purchasers job is to order 1m opamps or 1m "name your integrated circuit" to stock the factory and keep their product line rolling. They basically need the ingredients to make the actual product. I don't know if we have component manufacturing in USA becuase they do it overseas for cheep and capitalism, but we certainly have production electronics capabilities.
Hope that makes sense. In short, yes there are many made in USA electronics for industrial equipment or cars, controllers, robotics, welding equipment, however they're all made from "global components".
Truthfully, I'd be suprised if Ford's equipment wasn't made in USA, they're likely waiting on a specific integrated circuit thats holding up theor board manufactring line and they've got everything else they need. It would be rediculous for them to ship stuff all over Asia and bring back completed parts, rather than just bringing everything to them to assemble (taking pre-release OEM here not AC Delco made in Korea, AC actuators or something for 20 year old cars).
boom10ful
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I got the same email and gave them a call. They sent a rebuild kit out instead.
Professional Tool User
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All the most advanced semiconductor foundries are now in Taiwan and South Korea. Even Intel is playing catch up these days. The less advanced foundries that make chips for automotive applications are at capacity. Automakers are at the bottom of the customer priority list and they decided to go to the back of the queue when there was uncertainty.
VolvoRyan
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It's a fascinating industry. It costs a bazillion dollars to set those factories up, and the lead times are incredible.
-Ryan
dnschmidt
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As a semiconductor professional I can assure you that this statement is absolutely correct. If China decides to invade Taiwan I assure you we will defend it as we will have no other option as TSMC is absolutely essential to both the American economy and the Department of Defense. Many of the chips in the F22 Raptor can only by fabricated by TSMC. All of Apple's products can only be fabricated by TSMC as they currently are the only company with the needed Deep UV steppers which are made in the Netherlands by ASML. It would be tough for America to live without China it would be impossible for America to live without Taiwan.
CHI_Tool&Die
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I've been pretty shocked at how expensive repair/rebuild kits have become. It makes me appreciate my old school Proto 24t ratchets since I can still find kits for like $15 bucks. My new Proto stuff....it is almost the same price as the ratchet was. Are SK repair kits still considered a warranty item and free if justified?
This… plus the fact that TSMC actually owns a bunch of the technology.
They make something like half the chips and a vast vast majority of the advanced chips.
We need Taiwan.
The saying goes for making chips... “It's not rocket science—it's much more difficult,”
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reader2580
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A lot of stuff we should be making in the USA, but companies want to chase the lowest cost, which is not the USA in most cases. Heck, some manufacturing is leaving China for other 3rd world countries as wages have risen in China.
There is a small chip manufacturer here in the Minneapolis that makes mostly rad hard chips for various defense related items. They are currently expanding.
Professional Tool User
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And you really think producing chips is an easy business to be in? It's a never ending race to stay ahead of the competition with very high financial barriers to entry. Even then, money alone won't cut it. China's combination of $100 billion in subsidies, use of stolen trade secrets, and poached workforce produced mixed results.
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Wrench97
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They will most likely replace it with the current model.
gatewaysysop
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I started acquiring repair kits for my most used and/or favorite ratchets many years ago, as deals popped up. They've never really been cheap, RHFT kits were sometimes highway robbery. But it's gotten worse now, and I have no real regrets, other than not starting sooner on some of them.
dnschmidt
Well-known member
Rad-hard was my specialty. At one time the company you mentioned was part of Honeywell but I'm sure that they likely sold it off. The key problem is the lithography. Only ASML and Zeiss can make the necessary steppers and mirrors needed for the advanced steppers needed for nanometer production.
MacMcMacmac
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I read the Chinese are already at 7nm on their own, so I don't think they really need anyone else's help.
finn
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Toyota, Nissan, Kia, Hyundai, BMW, VW, Mercedes, Smithfield hams, Hitachi, Kubota, Wix, , Purolator, Stihl, Husqvarna, Milwaukee, …….
Wiz02
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Not to hijack this thread, but just because something is difficult to do doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. Seems to me that the stakes are too high to just give up with out a fight.
Professional Tool User
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If you follow industry news, it's well known that Chinese chip makers received outside help and poached personnel from Taiwan. And then there's the TSMC v SMIC lawsuit where former TSMC employees at SMIC were caught stealing trade secrets.
IIRC $80billion is headed to shoring up chip mfg in the US per the current presidents most recent orders
Still, its not that its too hard, it is, but also gearing up for production is likely the most complicated and resource restricted production on earth. So it more a difficulty AND timing situation.
dnschmidt
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OK, time for a history lesson. As an officer of the Electrochemical Society (a professional society for battery technology and semiconductor professionals) I had the opportunity to meet Morris Chang the founder of TSMC a long time ago. At that time he was working at Texas Instruments. He gave a paper at one of our conferences defining the concept of the wafer foundry which at that time was unheard of as everybody was vertically integrated and did all of their semiconductors in house. Not getting a reception in the USA for his idea (in particular at TI) he went home to Taiwan where the president of Taiwan at that time happened to be a visionary. When is the last time we’ve had a politician that was one of those in America? The President of Taiwan asked Morris what it would take to become a world leader in semiconductor manufacturing and Morris said "About a Billion Dollars." The President said, "Here you go now go and do it." Thus TSMC was born. Morris raided IBM and AT&T Bell Labs for the best Chinese talent available, convincing them to come back home. He then started developing his foundry model meaning he would develop a standard process and make chips for whomever wanted them using their mask sets. While American companies went to what they euphemistically called "An asset light model" meaning they were unwilling to spend the billions needed to build new fabs (Motorola, TI, Intel to a degree and AMD) the government of the US, as it always does, failed to comprehend that whomever controlled semiconductor production basically ruled the world. No way was the USA going to do what the government of Taiwan did and subsidize the crucial semiconductor industry so we let our industry fall behind. Morris always wanted to be at the leading edge of technology and was willing to take great chances, and with the support of the Taiwanese government, succeeded in achieving this goal. He wasn't satisfied to achieve a milestone in the lab, a common failing of the American way, the milestones he valued were to be able to be put into mass production. 35 years later TSMC is miles ahead of everybody and may be the most important company in the world.
Professional Tool User
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Providing big corporations with hand outs, especially on money losing projects, is a waste of taxpayer money. TSMC and Samsung wouldn't have even considered manufacturing chips in the US if it weren't for US political pressure.
Wiz02
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Interesting information @dnschmidt, while Wikipedia certainly shouldn't be considered a definitive source, from a quick perusal, it didn't appear that TSMC is quite the juggernaut that you described above. Perhaps you could update the TSMC information?
Despite many amazing technological achievements by the United States in the past, I agree that US has missed creating national policies that would have made the US more competitive in a wide range of technologies from manufacturing hand tools (this is the GJ after all) to electronics fab. Hopefully the electorate appreciates the importance of these policies and votes for representatives that will create legislation to implement them.
Better late than never!
It is a national security issue. TSMC makes 80% of the advanced chips and half of all chips. We need them. We need them to produce them in the USA. It is not a waste of taxpayer money.
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dnschmidt
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In fact in North Phoenix, about 10 miles from where I live, TSMC is building a Mega Fab. The City of Phoenix and the State of Arizona bent over backwards to make this happen with every tax advantage and infrastructure improvement known to man. It's a good first step but years late to the game.
dnschmidt
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I certainly hope not or we're doomed. If it took them twenty years to make a ratcheting wrench how long do you think it would take them to make a chip for the iPhone 13?
No, they could barely make a ratchet
bob15
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So what point are/were you trying to make besides quoting Michael Gambon (Baxter) from Open Range? I response kinda countered with what I thought you said.
Professional Tool User
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The military isn't that big of a customer nor does it use the most advanced chips. You have examples like the stinger missiles getting the job done using outdated chips from the 80s. I'm also unconvinced that the chips used in the latest fighter aircraft avionics have a higher transistor density than current automotive chips which are capable of autonomous driving. Having the process expertise needed to make the chip to mil spec is probably more important than having fancy new equipment. If you want to claim it's a national security issue, it makes more sense to contract an existing foundry to retain the equipment needed and to produce new chips at short notice.
Professional Tool User
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TSMC is the quiet kid in class that everyone laughed at for doing things differently (manufacturing only business model). Nowadays, they are a virtual monopoly when it comes to manufacturing chips. Only companies like Samsung have deep enough pockets and expertise to compete with TSMC on ever more expensive foundries with the diminishing law of returns setting in on transistor density. Many well known electronics companies that only do chip design use them, including your Apples and Nvidias.
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