What happened to my pump?

[motterpaul]

Just got a VIVOHOME 110V 1/2 HP 5 CFM Dual Stage Rotary Vane for my mini-split, and it was working great an hour ago, getting down to 300 mics and holding steady but getting a little hot. So I left it off for an hour - same fittings, etc. I come back and turn it on and now it will not **** below about 950. There is also a steady stream of smoke coming out through the top filter. It doesn't sound awful, not purring but not growling either.

I thought I might have had too much oil (was at max) so I let some out. Now nothing has improved.

I have probably already run it 5 or 6 hours total - should I change the oil? (it seems to take a lot) But it was working fine before I turned it off.

 

[mike93lx]

VIVOHOME only sounds like a brand known for top quality.

 

[American Locomotive]

If you don't have a check valve, chances are theres a lot of moisture that migrated back in. Mist coming out the exhaust is indicative of water vapor or a leak letting gas in.

I'd change the oil and tigthen your connections. Let the pump get hot, they're meant to run all day.

 

[motterpaul]

I read the 1000+ reviews and they were mostly good, but they talked about a complicated break-in process that is not described well at all in the manual. Here it is as described in one review: Looks like I just need a good refill. I hope I have enough fresh oil. This is a new encounter for me (breaking in a pump) so I just wondered if anyone had encountered a pump that seemed to be "smoking" and what the answer is.


1- Fill half-way with provided oil (between Min and Max) and let sit 1-2 minute for oil to distribute inside and avoid a dry pump seizure at startup.

2-Remove the exhaust plug and remove at least one of the 2 inlet (vacuum) cap, it's to start it without pressure restrains.

3- Start the pump and let it run for a few seconds until the sound is nice and even, the pump will fume a little from the airflow going through it. It will prime the pump and make sure air bubbles are evacuated before putting it to work.

4-Put the caps ONLY ON THE INTAKE SIDE (vacuum), let it heat/buildup vacuum for 15-20 minutes and make sure the oil is between Min and Max while pumping, readjust as necessary.

5-Stop it without pressure restrain (remove inlet caps).

6-Drain the oil, this will flush the assembly/machining grim and dirt. Tilt it forward to get it all out.

7-Refill it as per step 1 to 5 with the remaining provided oil and you'll need more so buy a pint of namebrand high vacuum pump oil available here or at any local autoparts shop. No need to let it run again for 15+ minutes, just long enough to confirm the oil level is good while in operation.

 

[motterpaul]

I am not defending them, I think they are cheap too but enough people said they were OK to try them. They said they were as good as competitive brands. They are the same vacuums you see on the SuperCool website (non-branded).

Anyway, I tried the small amount of oil to clean it out, then I filled it 1/2-way... now I am trying to draw a vacuum. I have the Appion 5/16 and the Appion 1/4 VCRTs just like the AC Service Tech. Their videos are amazingly good but you have to listen to everything he says. I figured out you have to remove ALL of the Schrader workings in both pieces (in the airway), Then I heard him say it later as I was researching the vacuum pump.

So the pump is fubar and going back to Amazon (love their return policy). Even though it was their best-seller. Not sure what to get. It is like with certain things you need top of the line, but with other things you can get god enough (I am not doing this for a business, I just want to be thorough).

 

[jjrbus]

I am not defending them, I think they are cheap too but enough people said they were OK to try them. They said they were as good as competitive brands. They are the same vacuums you see on the SuperCool website (non-branded).

Anyway, I tried the small amount of oil to clean it out, then I filled it 1/2-way... now I am trying to draw a vacuum. I have the Appion 5/16 and the Appion 1/4 VCRTs just like the AC Service Tech. Their videos are amazingly good but you have to listen to everything he says. I figured out you have to remove ALL of the Schrader workings in both pieces (in the airway), Then I heard him say it later as I was researching the vacuum pump.

So the pump is fubar and going back to Amazon (love their return policy). Even though it was their best-seller. Not sure what to get. It is like with certain things you need top of the line, but with other things you can get god enough (I am not doing this for a business, I just want to be thorough).

Darn, I never saw the break in procedure! My Harbor Freight pump has worked well for 7 years, guess I got lucky.

 

[motterpaul]

Darn, I never saw the break in procedure! My Harbor Freight pump has worked well for 7 years, guess I got lucky.

Thanks - I was just on the phone Harbor Freight and I plan to buy one. Sending this one back to Amazon (only the best thing about Amazon)- and its good to know there is no break-in process with HF. I am sure that was what tripped me up since the comments said "it works great if you break it in, which the manual doesn't really explain."

 

[motterpaul]

Do you think it matters what viscosity you run in your pump? 68 or 46? It seems 46 is preferred. Is running 68 a problem?

 

[fitter30]

Vac pump oil should be changed every time unless there isn't alot of time in between usage. Like 24 hours. Vac pump oil gets contaminated by water vapor not dirt. Pumps don't pull dirt. Vapor pressure goes up in contaminated oil and microns reading go up as well. A question for u why is there a price difference between your pump and say a pump like robinair that costs 4 times+ as much? Vac oil isn't cheap and their is nothing i found that can replace it.

 

[motterpaul]

When one is trying to learn this stuff on his own there is no place to easily find basic information like what viscosity is recommended. I guess that in the many YouTubes, etc, it is assumed to already be known by the watcher/reader. But I am trying to learn the tools that real installers who know how to make an install last use; micron gauges, nitrogen, torque wrenches. I believe I am close 99% there, but that last 1% has been very hard.

For example - the importance of torque wrenches. A lot of even "professional" installers don't use them in videos I have seen, but I have now seen 5 minis and they were all seriously under torqued (I know now since I bought my CPS). If I didn't have a micron gauge I would always assume almost any pump worked because they can all draw to ~-30 sea level on a manifold and hold for 30 minutes, but with the micron gauge I know that is meaningless. Because I bothered to get a cylinder of nitrogen I was able to find small leaks and redo some flares that are now tight as a drum (for positive pressure).

See - many would call me a DIY, but DIY clips are no use to me, (no nitrogen, no micron gauge, no torque wrenches) if I wanted to claim that route I could say I am already 100% ready to go.

For DIYs, there is no warning that vacuum pumps are so complicated. I didn't even realize most of them are for car maintenance, (I am not a car mechanic), I assumed they were for HVAC. It took me a week to figure out what I needed to get for a 3/8" end for my Appion vacuum-rated 3/4" hose to fit on a pump. Most pumps are made for car coolant hoses. No one would or could tell me the problem. One experienced but noted YouTuber told me to take my hose and pump to a hardware store and make sure they got it to fit.

I am just a guy who likes to fix things. I just rebuilt my neighbor's LED TV last night from the bottom panel up and it works perfectly now (he had 9 dead LED strips). I learn well on my own but I also rely on what's on the web. But there is a lot in this field where the info is not out there in public. I'm not complaining - just explaining.

Your answer is helpful, I appreciate that. Not sure I get your question on the price of vac pumps unless you are trying to tell me to use 46. Even most pump manufacturers do not tell you what viscosity to use unless you figure out it is an ISO standard. The bottles they send out with the pumps do not even say anything.

Anyway - up above I explained that I had just tried the "break-in" process and changed the oil not long before the new pump crashed on me. Maybe I made a mistake (probably) but so did a lot of other people who bought the same pump and had the same complaint.

I just looked at the Harbor Freight pumps and their fittings don't work with my Appion vacuum-rated hose, so I am looking for a different pump. I prefer to buy from Amazon because I am prime and get free fast shipping and guaranteed returns. Not sure if they have what I need in a pump, though. They have CPS but through a third party so the shipping is slow.

 

[motterpaul]

Okay - been doing a LOT of reading on vacuum pumps. Extremely confusing. Every pump should ask you the ambient climate of where you work and then recommend a viscosity. They should also know if you have single or double-stage pumps. At the very least - every pump should recommend a first and second choice of oils, if not more.

It's a very confusing topic - which probably explains why I didn't get any solid answers. Here is a good example:

Vacuum Pump Oil - HVAC School

This article is written by Sal Hamidi, founder of Productsbypros.com, an innovative manufacturers representative agency that promotes great HVAC/R products through training and media. You can reach Sal at [email protected]. If we are going to discuss vacuum pump oil, it's important to...

hvacrschool.com

 

[jjrbus]

Thanks - I was just on the phone Harbor Freight and I plan to buy one. Sending this one back to Amazon (only the best thing about Amazon)- and its good to know there is no break-in process with HF. I am sure that was what tripped me up since the comments said "it works great if you break it in, which the manual doesn't really explain."

I took a quick look at the manual and see nothing about breaking in the pump, I thought I missed it.

 

[jjrbus]

When one is trying to learn this stuff on his own there is no place to easily find basic information like what viscosity is recommended. I guess that in the many YouTubes, etc, it is assumed to already be known by the watcher/reader. But I am trying to learn the tools that real installers who know how to make an install last use; micron gauges, nitrogen, torque wrenches. I believe I am close 99% there, but that last 1% has been very hard.

For example - the importance of torque wrenches. A lot of even "professional" installers don't use them in videos I have seen, but I have now seen 5 minis and they were all seriously under torqued (I know now since I bought my CPS). If I didn't have a micron gauge I would always assume almost any pump worked because they can all draw to ~-30 sea level on a manifold and hold for 30 minutes, but with the micron gauge I know that is meaningless. Because I bothered to get a cylinder of nitrogen I was able to find small leaks and redo some flares that are now tight as a drum (for positive pressure).

See - many would call me a DIY, but DIY clips are no use to me, (no nitrogen, no micron gauge, no torque wrenches) if I wanted to claim that route I could say I am already 100% ready to go.

For DIYs, there is no warning that vacuum pumps are so complicated. I didn't even realize most of them are for car maintenance, (I am not a car mechanic), I assumed they were for HVAC. It took me a week to figure out what I needed to get for a 3/8" end for my Appion vacuum-rated 3/4" hose to fit on a pump. Most pumps are made for car coolant hoses. No one would or could tell me the problem. One experienced but noted YouTuber told me to take my hose and pump to a hardware store and make sure they got it to fit.

I am just a guy who likes to fix things. I just rebuilt my neighbor's LED TV last night from the bottom panel up and it works perfectly now (he had 9 dead LED strips). I learn well on my own but I also rely on what's on the web. But there is a lot in this field where the info is not out there in public. I'm not complaining - just explaining.

Your answer is helpful, I appreciate that. Not sure I get your question on the price of vac pumps unless you are trying to tell me to use 46. Even most pump manufacturers do not tell you what viscosity to use unless you figure out it is an ISO standard. The bottles they send out with the pumps do not even say anything.

Anyway - up above I explained that I had just tried the "break-in" process and changed the oil not long before the new pump crashed on me. Maybe I made a mistake (probably) but so did a lot of other people who bought the same pump and had the same complaint.

I just looked at the Harbor Freight pumps and their fittings don't work with my Appion vacuum-rated hose, so I am looking for a different pump. I prefer to buy from Amazon because I am prime and get free fast shipping and guaranteed returns. Not sure if they have what I need in a pump, though. They have CPS but through a third party so the shipping is slow.

You are actually lucky there is a lot more mini info now than there was a short 4 years ago, plus there were lot's of R22 installs confusing things even more! Does seem odd the hose will not fit the HF pump?

 

[vga]

I change oil every 8 hrs during a long pump down. My main 2 pumps are both 10cfmJB units, each over 23 yrs old, never had a problem with either.

 

[pcmeiners]

" At the very least - every pump should recommend a first and second choice of oils, if not more."

Those that do recommend multiple oils give you choice. due to their profit amount on the sale. Tried multiple brand from inexpensive to ridiculously expensive oils, EXTREMELY little (more like minuscule) performance difference between them; just do not buy a no name brand or the non recommended viscosity.

 

[motterpaul]

I change oil every 8 hrs during a long pump down. My main 2 pumps are both 10cfmJB units, each over 23 yrs old, never had a problem with either.

Good for you. Wish I was having that kind of luck lately. Ironically, today my old pump. a 1/4 HP, one-stage, 0.5CFM (which I want to replace) pulled my own mini-split down to 360 in 5 minutes. I used 68 viscosity (I believe I am changing to 46 from now on, though, I read it boils liquid a little faster).

The only upside to all this is that the more you work with this stuff the more it makes sense. I'm totally into Schrader valves now, and quality ball VCRTs.

 

[motterpaul]

Got a Robinair 3 CFM today. It took a while to feel broken in (I think some of my fittings might be slightly mismatched) but I finally got a vacuum down to 290. That's the best these lines have done yet (yeah, I am not 100% sure all are holding 100% on vacuum even though they hold up great to nitrogen). But I think positive pressure is more important to worry about.

BTW: what does it mean when your pump goes "clickety-clack?" Mine didn't completely stop until about 30 minutes in. My first pump just purred, my second one sounded like a garbage dump.

 

[motterpaul]

You are actually lucky there is a lot more mini info now than there was a short 4 years ago, plus there were lot's of R22 installs confusing things even more! Does seem odd the hose will not fit the HF pump?

No, the Harbor Freight pumps are strictly made for car coolants. It says it gas 3/8" and 1/4" connectors, but neither one of them is flared - they are really made for car coolant hoses, not R410a. "

• "Dual ports for R134A and R12/R22 systems" is what it says in the specs

The Robinaire started right up right where I had left it capped off last night and purred like a kitten from the start - that's what I was looking for. Now I am sorry I didn't get the two-stage as it only got me down to 280, but it's pretty heavy as it is. Glad to have all the pump nonsense behind me. That turned out to be the hardest part of this process, and I thought nitrogen was complicated.

 

[pcmeiners]

Pulled apart/rebuild 9 vacuum, pumps. Not much to them to go wrong. With vane pumps you could have a vane break or crack, seize up or a seal go. If issues in the future, open the unit up, be careful of any cork or paper seals, any issues will be obvious. Biggest issue generally is a build up of sludge causing a number of issues.

 

[motterpaul]

I love to tear things apart and I watched some videos on guys tearing pumps apart. There was a lot of rust and sludge. Also O-rings seem to be a big factor. When I unboxed my new one (Robinaire) I noticed the O-rings on both the gasket and the oil valves were not all the way down, so I moved them. I do agree the quality of oil matters a lot. When I went to the Robinaire "High", and even changed it out after just one long vacuum, it ran a lot better. I have a question but I want to start a new thread.

 

[jjrbus]

No, the Harbor Freight pumps are strictly made for car coolants. It says it gas 3/8" and 1/4" connectors, but neither one of them is flared - they are really made for car coolant hoses, not R410a. "

• "Dual ports for R134A and R12/R22 systems" is what it says in the specs

The Robinaire started right up right where I had left it capped off last night and purred like a kitten from the start - that's what I was looking for. Now I am sorry I didn't get the two-stage as it only got me down to 280, but it's pretty heavy as it is. Glad to have all the pump nonsense behind me. That turned out to be the hardest part of this process, and I thought nitrogen was complicated.

Thanks, interesting. I originally bought my HF pump to service my cars 7 years ago. I bought my mini's and a Daikin mini split install kit which included a CPS Pro manifold set 4 years ago. The CPS manifold hooks up to the HF pump with no issue. I got down to 170 with the HF pump! Maybe they have changed over the years? Now I am having an issue with manifold hose gaskets only 4 years old so ordered new ones. Also muddling my way through the service manual for another Daikin mini showing a L5 fault, the manual is written in Chinese algebra LOL

 

[brownbagg]

claccky clack is normal, its pulling down nicely

 

[Sumboodie]

Thanks - I was just on the phone Harbor Freight and I plan to buy one. Sending this one back to Amazon (only the best thing about Amazon)- and its good to know there is no break-in process with HF. I am sure that was what tripped me up since the comments said "it works great if you break it in, which the manual doesn't really explain."

Amazon ***** that it's only a 30 day return.

Often by the time I actually get it and go to use it, it's well past the 30 day period. They start the 30 days from when it was "delivered"... well that's when it shows up to the post office. It might be a 2-3 weeks before I get down there and pick up the mail, especially if I'm gone for work.

 

[motterpaul]

Amazon ***** that it's only a 30 day return.

Often by the time I actually get it and go to use it, it's well past the 30 day period. They start the 30 days from when it was "delivered"... well that's when it shows up to the post office. It might be a 2-3 weeks before I get down there and pick up the mail, especially if I'm gone for work.

They should make an exception for Alaska. I actually get a lot of Amazon returns as just refunds (no return required) because they have rules about what they can pick up. Big magnets are one thing so I actually got a $350 guitar amp free when I asked to return it. Speakers, transformers, and electric motors are generally things they don't want back. I believed they would say the same thing about the pump but it was a 3rd party seller, but they gave me 3 weeks to return. These days they only give you about 2 days to do the return on their own merchandise.

 

[Sumboodie]

They should make an exception for Alaska. I actually get a lot of Amazon returns as just refunds (no return required) because they have rules about what they can pick up. Big magnets are one thing so I actually got a $350 guitar amp free when I asked to return it. Speakers, transformers, and electric motors are generally things they don't want back. I believed they would say the same thing about the pump but it was a 3rd party seller, but they gave me 3 weeks to return. These days they only give you about 2 days to do the return on their own merchandise.

Most large stores have 60-90+ days, not such why Amazon wouldn't either.

 

[motterpaul]

Amazon's in-person customer service by phone is pretty nice - I'll bet they would do it if you explained. They were the ones who gave me the amp.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Vivohome? If you got it to last through three evacuations, you got your money's worth...

Tommy