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Matco vs. C-man Pro??

bradleykd

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I know they are made by the same company, so is there really any difference in these products? I'm not sure which tools I'm looking at exactly right now, but I've been considering trying out some matco, but only if they are the same caliber as my Snap-on....
 
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Merkava_4

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They're a professional tool, so therefor the quality is going to be high since they don't have to meet a stringent price point like C-man Pro does.
 

DARKSCOPE001

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I suppose i dont understand the nature of the question? are you asking if craftsman is as nice as matco? because that would be untrue. Now that being said most of the differences between my craftsman and matco is purely cosmetic. The chrome on the matco is nicer and it seems like its a bit darker or whatever. Matco has prettyer tools than craftsman but other than that I will choose my craftsman. Now that being said they are not the same! You have to be selective with craftsman. Buy only craftsman pro, dont buy any cheap "as seen on tv" tools from craftsman. and DO NOT buy evolv. But a large majority of a mechanics toolbox can be made out of craftsman and that mechanic can be just as productive and sucsessfull as a mechanic with alot more money invested in his tools. but craftsman an entire set does not make. Sockets, Some ratchets, Screwdrivers (to a point) Pliers. Hammers. are all good things made by craftsman that rival just about any other company and the only difference you get when paying for them is the name and a slightly better cosmetic finish.

HOPE THIS HELPS
Sean Scott
 

boybacon

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generally speaking, tolerances will be tighter on the MATCO brand vs. the Craftsman brand, even though they come from the same factory. I did some measurements a while back on Cman Pro wrenches vs. others and found that the truck brands (snap on, etc.) had tighter tolerances than the Cman.
 

mrholeshot

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The Craftsman Pro line has some good ratchets, decent wrenches, decent screwdrivers and a few other things but the sockets, extentions and such remain regular Craftsman. While some of it many be great quality they are still not up to Matco standards. Just because they come from the same factory doesn't mean a thing other than USA built. One of my Daughters worked for Puralator Filter division in Fayetteville NC. She was a production supervisor there. Just about every brand of Filter is built in the same plant and they will have several differant brands being built on seperate lines. Each brand uses differant paper, fabric, valves and in some cases differance in the case thickness, material of the O ring. Quality varies depending on the customers specs
 
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bradleykd

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cool.. I was just wondering because i have some cman pro stuff, that i'm not the fondest of, and didnt want to be dissapointed if i ventured into matco land...
 

Fedwrench

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You have to judge each tool on its own merits. There are silmilarities across the whole Danaher line that are becoming more blurred daily. However, there are unique features found on Matco tools not shared across all of the Danaher lines. I think the few Craftsman Pro series tools have more in common with Armstrong than Matco but, that's just me. What specifically don't you like in the Craftsman pro line?
 

wafrederick

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I do like Matco's ratchets with the 88 tooth design,have a couple at work in 1/4 drive.I have not broken them yet.I do not like what Craftsman does to thier ratchets when they refurbish their ratchets,they put in plastic gears instead of metal gears.Plastic does not hold up and the teeth strip out.Matco's screwdrivers are made overseas in Germany by Witte and some of their pliers are this way too.I have a pair of Matco's needle nose pliers that are my most favorite pair of needle nose pliers,part number PNC8 which are made by Knipex in Germany
 

billymade

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I used to rebuild ratchets @ Sears and watch the PMT do it all the time... the rebuild kits DO NOT have plastic gears... BUT quite awhile ago the levers on the STANDARD ratchets changed from black colored copper metal ones, to plastic. NOW, the PMT picks and chooses which ratchets to rebuild; each PMT makes a judgement call.... cosmetic issues seemed to be the main reason they would not rebuild a ratchet but I think many of the bodies of the ratchets were worn out and should not have been rebuilt. There was a policy I read one time; it stated in general to give customers rebuilt ratchets but if a customer requested a new one, to give it to him. If you want a new one; just get it off the hook and take it to the counter... problem solved! If you want a metal selector; get the top thin pro ratchet or order the classic fine tooth version; most of the rest of the ratchets all use the same guts and have the plastic lever. IMHO, there is a difference in quality between the Matco and Craftsman ratchets... however, I personally have experience with the earlier 36 tooth versions....
If you want a good ratchet do not get the standard ratchets; they do not hold up and were the ones that were exchanged on a daily basis, with a high failure rate!
 
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a390st

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I have a set of CMan Pro metric combo wrenches. I have a few sets of Matco combo wrenches, some Bonney, the intermediate MCL line, and the new ones. The Matco wrenches are better. The Cman Pros either aren't as tight fitting as the Matco wrenches or spread a little, because when you really put out you can notice that they don't fit as well. They are generally fine, though.

The standard Danaher ratchets are another example. I have a Matco BR8T ratchet that is the same design as the CMan. It is an excellent ratchet that never skips or anything. The only standard CMan ratchets I have used (not thin profile or rhft) have been as bad a ratchet as I've come across.

I have many CMan tools, but you just have to pick and choose very carefully.

BTW, the HORRIBLY finished JUNK excuse for long pattern double box wrenches CMan makes fit as tight on a fastener as any wrench I have. You just need to keep your eyes closed when you use them (and remember that they were 80% off on sale).
 

Coach James

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. One of my Daughters worked for Puralator Filter division in Fayetteville NC. She was a production supervisor there. Just about every brand of Filter is built in the same plant and they will have several differant brands being built on seperate lines. Each brand uses differant paper, fabric, valves and in some cases differance in the case thickness, material of the O ring. Quality varies depending on the customers specs

I grew up in Fayetteville and lots of my friends worked at that Purolator plant. That was why I have used Purolator filters for so may years. Trying to help keep my friends employed.


One of my coworkers used to have a Matco route. I asked if C-man pro wrenches were rebranded Matco and he said absolutely not. he said that because of them looking much the same he got asked that often but there were differences between them.

Coach
 

mrholeshot

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I grew up in Fayetteville and lots of my friends worked at that Purolator plant.
Back years ago I owned Iron Mike Texaco right at the gate on Bragg Blvd. When they sent the first troops out of Bragg into Desert Shield my business dropped off to nothing so I had to relocate. 95% of my business was military. My home was actually in Hope Mills.
 

Mike83

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I have a Matco ratcheting combo wrench. It has sloppy finishing on the open end (identical to my craftsman pro) and the beam is bent (just like my craftsman pro). It works fine, but as far as I am concerned it should not cost twice as much as a c-man pro.

This wrench is a warranty replacement for one that had a broken ratcheting end. The old wrench was nicer in terms of finishing.
 
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Merkava_4

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If Matco ever changes their sockets over to the double stacked detent design, they might as well fold up and skip town. The double stacked detent design is NOT professional and is an insult to the technician's intelligence.
 

wafrederick

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I learned about this a couple weeks ago,Craftsman puts plastic gears in their refurbished ratchets.I always go to the shelf and grab a new ratchet instead because of this.
 

Teken

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I learned about this a couple weeks ago,Craftsman puts plastic gears in their refurbished ratchets.I always go to the shelf and grab a new ratchet instead because of this.

I would love to see a picture of these plastic gear sets . . . :headscrat :spit:
 

BWright

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I would love to see a picture of these plastic gear sets . . . :headscrat :spit:

They don't exist.

And as far as Cman pro versus Matco, I can only comment to their combo wrenches as I have had both. Just from pure observation it is obvious that the are stamped from the same die. Now I'm not a metallurgist, so whether or not they use different metal or heat treating I have no clue. The matco has the opti-torque open end and better finishing. They both share the same inconsistencies in the depth of their open ends, which pisses me off to no end.

I personally sold all my matco wrenches after comparing the two, and as far as I am concerned, the craftsman pros are the best bang-for-the-buck wrench out there. I've owned or own wrenches from proto, matco, craftsman, gearwrench, SK, armstrong, snap on, and williams. The craftsman pros are right up there. :thumbup:
 

Coach James

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Back years ago I owned Iron Mike Texaco right at the gate on Bragg Blvd. When they sent the first troops out of Bragg into Desert Shield my business dropped off to nothing so I had to relocate. 95% of my business was military. My home was actually in Hope Mills.

I remember your place. When the 82nd left for Desert Shield, a lot of businessses in Fayetteville went under.

The Boulevard leading into Bragg is really run down now. Lots of empty buildings, trash etc.

I grew up just off Hope Mills Rd near JW **** Elementary School.

Coach
 

iandh

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They don't exist.

And as far as Cman pro versus Matco, I can only comment to their combo wrenches as I have had both. Just from pure observation it is obvious that the are stamped from the same die. Now I'm not a metallurgist, so whether or not they use different metal or heat treating I have no clue. The matco has the opti-torque open end and better finishing. They both share the same inconsistencies in the depth of their open ends, which pisses me off to no end.

I personally sold all my matco wrenches after comparing the two, and as far as I am concerned, the craftsman pros are the best bang-for-the-buck wrench out there. I've owned or own wrenches from proto, matco, craftsman, gearwrench, SK, armstrong, snap on, and williams. The craftsman pros are right up there. :thumbup:


I also have compared recent craftsman pro to a friends fairly new matco, and can attest that they come from the same dies... I've been a machinist for over a decade and also done a good bit of tool and die work. It's pretty much blatantly obvious.

Now, the chances of them getting different finishing is pretty good, but as far as different steel, heat treatment, I'd say close to zero. If you buy a Cman pro, you're pretty much getting a matco.
 

Teken

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If you want a definitive answer as to where the wrenches are made . . . Their will be two answers from the tech support.

- Some of the tools are produced and assembled in the Matco plant.

- Some of the 3rd party tools are produced and assembled at the Armstrong plant.

Is there different steel and finishing, and heat treatment on the tools?

Yes . . .

Give them a call they will tell you, I did . . .
 

lipadj46

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I learned about this a couple weeks ago,Craftsman puts plastic gears in their refurbished ratchets.I always go to the shelf and grab a new ratchet instead because of this.

Have you actually seen the plastic gears? I personally won't believe it until I see it. Maybe I will break one of my "never will be used" cman raised panel ratchets and see.
 

iandh

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If you want a definitive answer as to where the wrenches are made . . . Their will be two answers from the tech support.

- Some of the tools are produced and assembled in the Matco plant.

- Some of the 3rd party tools are produced and assembled at the Armstrong plant.

Is there different steel and finishing, and heat treatment on the tools?

Yes . . .

Give them a call they will tell you, I did . . .


I've worked in manufacturing for my whole working life... I've got experience with just about every alloy and synthetic known to man, and I've got loads of experience in heat treatement.

Manufactuers of items such as hand tools saying "Oh, we have special steel, we have special heat treatment, we have special this, we have special that", just SCREAMS marketing BS to me. It might be different, but it sure as hell isn't special.

Heat treatment itself is not a complicated process. There are widely known standards used in industry. Maybe if you told me the same thing 30 years ago before digital process control was available I might have believed that one shop could do "better" heat treatment than another, but those days have come and gone.

As far as alloys, there are no secrets any more for the most part. Modern spectroscopy took care of that for us.

If one of the tool manufacturers was using some special tool steel that another wasn't, they would advertise it, LOUDLY. It would be great for business. Mysteriously saying that they use different steels and finishing without providing ANY specifics is a great way to fool customers into thinking they're getting something special without opening themselves to any liability.

"Different" could mean the same alloy purchased from a different supplier.

Take Kershaw knives for example... they're using a new stainless alloy from sandvik in some of their blades and they make damned sure you know it, on the products and on the packaging.

I would put money down that if you had a spectroscopic analysis done of modern tool steels used in any reputable brand (non-HF india) of tools, the differences would be insignificant.
 

wafrederick

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I have not seen one yet.A person working at sears said this and also said the refurbished ratchets are better than new which is full of BS.I do not like the forward/reverse lever on a Craftsman ratchet,too chincy and break easy.It has happened to me twice so far.
 

billymade

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Having worked @ Sears for 7 years in the tool dept.; hearing people say all kinds of bizarre and incorrect info... does not surprise me! There are tons of clueless wonders that work @ Sears; your average guy on the floor doesn't know much! I did not defend Craftsman tools then and I don't now; aside from the pro thin profile and old school fine tooth... look elsewhere for a quality ratchet! Now considering the failure rate of the standard ratchets; you WOULD THINK the gears are made of plastic! LOL! :)
 
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Teken

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I've worked in manufacturing for my whole working life... I've got experience with just about every alloy and synthetic known to man, and I've got loads of experience in heat treatement.

Manufactuers of items such as hand tools saying "Oh, we have special steel, we have special heat treatment, we have special this, we have special that", just SCREAMS marketing BS to me. It might be different, but it sure as hell isn't special.

Heat treatment itself is not a complicated process. There are widely known standards used in industry. Maybe if you told me the same thing 30 years ago before digital process control was available I might have believed that one shop could do "better" heat treatment than another, but those days have come and gone.

As far as alloys, there are no secrets any more for the most part. Modern spectroscopy took care of that for us.

If one of the tool manufacturers was using some special tool steel that another wasn't, they would advertise it, LOUDLY. It would be great for business. Mysteriously saying that they use different steels and finishing without providing ANY specifics is a great way to fool customers into thinking they're getting something special without opening themselves to any liability.

"Different" could mean the same alloy purchased from a different supplier.

Take Kershaw knives for example... they're using a new stainless alloy from sandvik in some of their blades and they make damned sure you know it, on the products and on the packaging.

I would put money down that if you had a spectroscopic analysis done of modern tool steels used in any reputable brand (non-HF india) of tools, the differences would be insignificant.

Where in my reply did I state special or otherwise? :headscrat :wtf: Also since you're stating you're a expert in such details. Then, you are aware of the different steps in finishing and processing of steel forgings.

And what extra steps some manufactures undertake in the final processing of said product.

Why is it when I read some of your replies you always come off as angry and belligerent??:headscrat Then, moments later you edit you post to tone it down from the original?

I have read probably 25 threads with you first screaming, then later editing your replies to a more neutral reply . . .

Relax, take a deep breath . . . Let it all out . . . :wtf:
 

Merkava_4

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I can't see how the Matco sockets can be better than GearWrench sockets. GearWrench sockets are pretty damn good, and they even come on the same socket rails as Matco does.
 

Teken

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I can't see how the Matco sockets can be better than GearWrench sockets. GearWrench sockets are pretty damn good, and they even come on the same socket rails as Matco does.

You're preaching to the choir here as I agree. All I am addressing is the one Q that another member asked.

Which my reply was that they (Matco & Armstrong) each produce some tools. As to what percentage of the tools are done on behalf of third parties only the person(s) working in the building(s) would know including those in management.

I do know for a fact that the one Armstrong plant produces Allen, Craftmen, NAPA, and another 3rd tier tool product.

As to what the Matco plant may or may not produce for 3rd party vendors I don't know first hand. Only what I have been told by the tech support at the call center.

Which goes back to my original reply: If you're curious or want to know more either write them a e-mail or call them to find out.

I called them for a warranty issue a few months back, all the while I chatted with the tech support and they indicated the above statements.

Don't know why people insist upon making something so simple into snake oil, or must use the word special . . .

No special, just added steps and time in the finishing and production of the end product . . .

The End . . .
 

TheGrooveking

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I've worked in manufacturing for my whole working life... I've got experience with just about every alloy and synthetic known to man, and I've got loads of experience in heat treatement.

Manufactuers of items such as hand tools saying "Oh, we have special steel, we have special heat treatment, we have special this, we have special that", just SCREAMS marketing BS to me. It might be different, but it sure as hell isn't special.

Heat treatment itself is not a complicated process. There are widely known standards used in industry. Maybe if you told me the same thing 30 years ago before digital process control was available I might have believed that one shop could do "better" heat treatment than another, but those days have come and gone.

As far as alloys, there are no secrets any more for the most part. Modern spectroscopy took care of that for us.

If one of the tool manufacturers was using some special tool steel that another wasn't, they would advertise it, LOUDLY. It would be great for business. Mysteriously saying that they use different steels and finishing without providing ANY specifics is a great way to fool customers into thinking they're getting something special without opening themselves to any liability.

"Different" could mean the same alloy purchased from a different supplier.

Take Kershaw knives for example... they're using a new stainless alloy from sandvik in some of their blades and they make damned sure you know it, on the products and on the packaging.

I would put money down that if you had a spectroscopic analysis done of modern tool steels used in any reputable brand (non-HF india) of tools, the differences would be insignificant.

I've worked in tool & die for over 20 years, of which 5 were in ultra high precision cutting tools for aerospace, military and other projects. Of which we used a wide range of heat treaters and over the years I've found that it is no way as consistent as you imply. First off batch to batch of steel there are differences, since the recipe has a +/- to the quantities of alloys. Certs from the mills are for the most part ran off of a copier, at one company alone we disqualified two mills because our lab analysis proved their steel did not match their certs.

For heat treat we went to great lengths and depending on the type of steel we would use different HT processes. The most consistent I found was salt bath/submerged heat treating and there were only a few left in the country back in 2002.

Digital controls are great, except you could but a digital tach on a lawn mower, but it doesn't mean it will better control it. As to process control of heat treat most production heat treaters can not hold a tight enough cpk, but lets be honest to the application here, hand tools are going to have a range to the specified hardness and the specific regions of the tools that will apply to.

As to blanketly calling it marketing BS, I disagree, I would run die bushings and punches through there centerless grinding, OD grinding, CNC machining and they would look identical but some would be made from S2, S7, M2, M42, CPM10V, CPM15, A2, A10 along with some other more exotics. The only difference in the process besides what we ordered from our vendors was the heat treat and the speeds and feeds to the machining / grinding operations. Plus in a production environment changes like that are not a big issue or problem at all. The biggest challenge was making sure things were properly marked thoughout the process to eliminate mixing or incorrect heat treating.

Additionally there is liability to manufacturing tools that people could/can/do get hurt with, which means even a half *** **** house lawyer knows to send the broken tool to a lab for analysis and this would confirm what was used. There are many labs/companies out there that do forensic work using FEA techniques. Plus for instance if Sandvik thought someone was using their name and not buying their steel it wouldn't be hard to prove it, each batch of steel has it's own signature mix to it plus the company claiming that they used it would have to produce records proving they indeed purchased the quantity of steel.

Of course there are standards to the types of steels and more than once source may produce a given type, but even within that most manufactures keep pretty good records for lot tracability, especially those who sell to the US government. I don't think a supplier wants to sell a tool to the DOD or DOE and have a liability problem. I've worked for companies who supplied the government and can report that they will make you do what you are contractly obligated to provide, even at gun point.

At a few companies I worked at the government supplied the raw materials we used for some of the most demanding applications and they were delivered via armed courrier and returned to them the same way.

TheGrooveking
 
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boybacon

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Get a caliper and measure the gear wrench openings on a 6 point socket vs. the same on a Matco socket vs. the same on a Craftsman socket. Do it for 3 or 4 different sizes.

I did that with new open end wrenches and found the Gear Wrench to have the most consistent sizing, and also the most consistently largest openings.

The casual user probably won't notice the difference. A pro who uses the same wrench day in and day out will notice the fit difference on the fasteners. THey will also be more likely to deform a fastener.
 

Merkava_4

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You're preaching to the choir here as I agree. All I am addressing is the one Q that another member asked.

Which my reply was that they (Matco & Armstrong) each produce some tools. As to what percentage of the tools are done on behalf of third parties only the person(s) working in the building(s) would know including those in management.

I do know for a fact that the one Armstrong plant produces Allen, Craftmen, NAPA, and another 3rd tier tool product.

As to what the Matco plant may or may not produce for 3rd party vendors I don't know first hand. Only what I have been told by the tech support at the call center.

Which goes back to my original reply: If you're curious or want to know more either write them a e-mail or call them to find out.

I called them for a warranty issue a few months back, all the while I chatted with the tech support and they indicated the above statements.

Don't know why people insist upon making something so simple into snake oil, or must use the word special . . .

No special, just added steps and time in the finishing and production of the end product . . .

The End . . .


Teken,

I didn't even read your post before I posted. If I touched on something you were talking about, it was purely by accident. :D
 

TireTracks

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If Matco ever changes their sockets over to the double stacked detent design, they might as well fold up and skip town. The double stacked detent design is NOT professional and is an insult to the technician's intelligence.

All of my sockets are this design, and i dont have any issues with them.:confused:

do you want to post pic's of them not working?
 
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