Adding a propane tank vs running a gas line

[couch67]

We heat our house with only propane because natural gas is not available to our location. If we could get nat gas we would. We have a 1000 gallon tank and yearly rental is $90. We are in Canada and because it gets so cold here, we have actually had our propane get so cold it quit running to the house. Getting up in the middle of the night in -40 to pour a 5 gallon pail of hot water on the tank *****.

Yes I'd switch to NG in a heartbeat. We're less than a KM from the line, and only a few houses around me, so I'm not holding my breath. We have a 1000 gal tank too, and I'm not paying a rental fee (think it was an error in the original agreement, but I didnt ask!).
We're in Ottawa so it rarely (never?) gets to -40, but I've always wondered about the tank freezing.

 

[gmcgeo]

Yes I'd switch to NG in a heartbeat. We're less than a KM from the line, and only a few houses around me, so I'm not holding my breath. We have a 1000 gal tank too, and I'm not paying a rental fee (think it was an error in the original agreement, but I didnt ask!).
We're in Ottawa so it rarely (never?) gets to -40, but I've always wondered about the tank freezing.

Prob why you have a 1,000 for the vapor storage, since it gets that cold you need vapor to keep up with the demand. yeah close to the boiling point of propane so any colder and you wont get much heat

 

[toyotadriver]

I realize this is not the purpose of the original post but you can get electrically heated blankets for propane tanks for use in extreme locations.

 

[gmcgeo]

I realize this is not the purpose of the original post but you can get electrically heated blankets for propane tanks for use in extreme locations.

Yes! or burry a tank....... then it always stays at a constant temp

Edit: burry an underground tank. not the one he has

 

[toyotadriver]

We heat our house with only propane because natural gas is not available to our location. If we could get nat gas we would. We have a 1000 gallon tank and yearly rental is $90. We are in Canada and because it gets so cold here, we have actually had our propane get so cold it quit running to the house. Getting up in the middle of the night in -40 to pour a 5 gallon pail of hot water on the tank *****.

Powerblanket Lite PBL1K Propane Tank Heating Blanket, Fits 1000-gallon Horizontal Gas Tank, 1440 Watts, 100 F: Amazon.com: Tools & Home Improvement

Powerblanket Lite PBL1K Propane Tank Heating Blanket, Fits 1000-gallon Horizontal Gas Tank, 1440 Watts, 100 F: Amazon.com: Tools & Home Improvement

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Pro Wrap - Insulation for Horizontal Propane tanks | Insulation Snakes

The Pro Wrap is designed to fit standard size propane tanks up to 2000 gallons. It prevents heat loss and facilitates vaporization in extremely cold conditions.

insulationsnakes.com

 

[Guntherd]

I live in the Florida Panhandle and am currently on electricity and the closest gas line is over 1000 linear feet away. I was quoted $36k to extend the line to my house. If i pay for this, will my neighbors be able to hook up for free?

 

[Hobby_Man22]

I live in the Florida Panhandle and am currently on electricity and the closest gas line is over 1000 linear feet away. I was quoted $36k to extend the line to my house. If i pay for this, will my neighbors be able to hook up for free?

Probably. Sometimes they'll be required to pay their share and the more people who can hook on the cheaper it is. Honestly it's their line so no telling if you'll get a refund everytime someone else shares the cost. I guess it depends on what you work out with them.

 

[Hobby_Man22]

Why is it that when houses aren't on top of each other they don't typically have gas or city sewer? Like these houses that have an acre or two where it's 200ft to the next house.

 

[yeldogt]

Why is it that when houses aren't on top of each other they don't typically have gas or city sewer? Like these houses that have an acre or two where it's 200ft to the next house.

Is that not self evident ? Distance

If you look at gas line distribution maps in the more rural areas of the mid-atlanic -- there is often a gas main that runs with a main road. These connected small towns together -- both the road and later the gas line. When early developments were placed off of these roads it was relatively cheap for a developer to tie into them and provide gas service. Very few places had sewer service .... so they may have had gas ... but no sewer.

As time went on it was a matter of density ......

 

[HoosierBuddy]

Gas sales to single family homes is low enough that it's tough to justify gas main extensions for anything other than housing additions. Lots of people in rural areas end up with natural gas, but often because the main was going past their house headed to a bigger meter. I see it alot with rural gas mains put in for grain dryers or poultry houses. The gas company is going to have to run a mile or two to get there, and everyone along the route ends up with a gas service (if they want one) basically as a tradeoff for the easement to cross their property on the way to the big meter. A big grain dryer may only run for 2 months a year....but it can generate $50.000 or $100,000 in gas sales in that time. So that essentially "pays for" the main, and everyone along the route is free to hook on. Single family houses just don't use enough gas to justify a lot of lineal feet of ditch line. For instance, my house has 10 natural gas burning appliances, and my gas bill is my third highest utility behind power and telecom.

 

[Hobby_Man22]

I thought even natural gas is high right now.

 

[Hobby_Man22]

There's a gas main running alongside the road where I live. Although I've always wondered what it would cost to have them put a meter in and tap into it then run it 350ft or so to the house. Probably too much seeing as they couldn't raise the power line over my drive to allow for dump trucks to enter.

 

[Hobby_Man22]

Is that not self evident ? Distance

If you look at gas line distribution maps in the more rural areas of the mid-atlanic -- there is often a gas main that runs with a main road. These connected small towns together -- both the road and later the gas line. When early developments were placed off of these roads it was relatively cheap for a developer to tie into them and provide gas service. Very few places had sewer service .... so they may have had gas ... but no sewer.

As time went on it was a matter of density ......

These are usually rich people with 500k large houses though will use twice the gas.

 

[dcg9381]

These are usually rich people with 500k large houses though will use twice the gas.

The "average" home in Austin, Texas is north of $600k median sales price for~2000 sqft. Trust me, we're not all rich. Market inflation has pushed a lot of people out. Unless your property taxes are fixed, these evaluations have hit people hard. And with interest rates at 6%+ now, this market has to go down.

Here's an actual answer, I had a 500 gallon tank installed 4/2021 in Texas. The price of propane since then has essentially doubled per gallon since I installed (I just refilled 2 days ago since the original install). I believe the install cost is about the same. All of the local providers were within 10% of each other on install cost.

Note, most appliances that can run on NG can run on propane (you need to convert them, but it's pretty easy) - this includes clothes dryers and cooking ranges..

 

[jar944]

These are usually rich people with 500k large houses though will use twice the gas.

2x the gas is still nothing compared to a development with 3-10+ houses per acre. Around here you can have a 8,000 sqft house on 1/3 of a acre next to 100 other 8,000 sqft houses. Which is again nothing compared to 1000 town homes next to each other in a development.

 

[Hobby_Man22]

2x the gas is still nothing compared to a development with 3-10+ houses per acre. Around here you can have a 8,000 sqft house on 1/3 of a acre next to 100 other 8,000 sqft houses. Which is again nothing compared to 1000 town homes next to each other in a development.

I see. Last I heard they Pau for the first 40ft. After that it's like $10/ft

 

[Firebrick43]

Also propane seems to shorten the life of heat exchangers in furnaces.

Huh???? Propane is cleaner than NG.

NG has impurities in it sometime depending on the wells that attack copper which is why copper pipe is forbidden for the most part for NG

Propane it’s very common to use copper, not forbidden at all.

 

[Wrench97]

Huh???? Propane is cleaner than NG.

NG has impurities in it sometime depending on the wells that attack copper which is why copper pipe is forbidden for the most part for NG

Propane it’s very common to use copper, not forbidden at all.

> https://homeclimates.com/blog/choos...as: If properly maintained,for 18 to 20 years.

• Natural Gas: If properly maintained, gas furnaces typically last for 20 to 30 years, sometimes even longer. Normally, the furnace is replaced when the heat exchanger starts to leak, as this component is one of the most important and expensive.
• LP Gas: Furnaces powered by propane tend to last for 18 to 20 years.

 

[jar944]

I see. Last I heard they Pau for the first 40ft. After that it's like $10/ft

Pay for the first 40' of what? NG line?

 

[Hobby_Man22]

Pay for the first 40' of what? NG line?

Yes

 

[gmcgeo]

> https://homeclimates.com/blog/choosing-a-home-heating-system#:~:text=Natural Gas: If properly maintained,for 18 to 20 years.

• Natural Gas: If properly maintained, gas furnaces typically last for 20 to 30 years, sometimes even longer. Normally, the furnace is replaced when the heat exchanger starts to leak, as this component is one of the most important and expensive.
• LP Gas: Furnaces powered by propane tend to last for 18 to 20 years.

That is because Propane burns hotter then NG and tends to eat the heat exchanger faster.... Propane has the edge on NG by it being a greener fuel when burned.

 

[Wrench97]

• Natural Gas: If properly maintained, gas furnaces typically last for 20 to 30 years, sometimes even longer. Normally, the furnace is replaced when the heat exchanger starts to leak, as this component is one of the most important and expensive.
• LP Gas: Furnaces powered by propane tend to last for 18 to 20 years.

That is because Propane burns hotter then NG and tends to eat the heat exchanger faster.... Propane has the edge on NG by it being a greener fuel when burned.

Yep

 

[PCustoms]

I would go outside and WALK to the neighbor's house and ASK him why he went propane and not natural gas!
Then you will know why and possibly the actual costs! Asking a bunch of guys on the Internet is NOT the Best way to get good Advice for your area!

What a dumb suggestion

 

[Hobby_Man22]

What a dumb suggestion

He moved away. I doubt the old owner explained this to him at closing.

 

[Hobby_Man22]

Why can't you get natural gas in a tank?

 

[gmcgeo]

Why can't you get natural gas in a tank?

you can, Have fun trying to find a company to refill it.

 

[NWOhioChevyGuy]

Why can't you get natural gas in a tank?

That is all due to how it is produced and transported.
LPG = Liquid Propane Gas -- hauled and stored as a condensed liquid which vaporizes when used from your tank
NG = Natural Gas -- piped in gas form

LPG is denser in BTU's also but more costly due to its production and transportation.

But like most have said, If I had a choice I would pay for the line and have NG.
I got excited a few years ago when the Gas Company was extending the NG line to my north. Unfortunately they stopped about 2 miles from me.

 

[yeldogt]

I was always told that since propane was a byproduct of the oil and gas business and needs to be striped of impurities you always want to buy it from a reputable source. There are different grades of propane and different blends .... you want to make sure you are getting the one for cooking if using it for a residence.

The blends with more impurities can effect the burners on modulating furnaces .... my memory is the stuff used in industry is not as refined and has more butane

 

[toyotadriver]

Why can't you get natural gas in a tank?

There is LPG (liquefied propane gas) and that's the propane we all purchase. If you take your 20 lb BBQ tank to be filled or exchanged, you are buying LPG. It's a liquid in the tank and then vaporizes in the tank and you withdraw the vapor to use in your grill, heater etc. It's slightly more complex than that but that's the basics.

Natural gas CAN be liquefied but it's ONLY done to transport large quantities. So for example, the natural gas we are now exporting to Europe is liquefied, pumped into ships, sailed to Europe, off loaded as a liquid, then returned to a gas state and piped to homes etc.

When you see large city buses and other natural gas fueled vehicles, they used CNG (compressed natural gas). It's still a gas but just stored at very high pressure. Basically, where they refuel has a natural gas line connected to a HIGH pressure pump. The high pressure pump fills the natural gas tanks to 3000-3600 PSI. As a point of comparison, your LPG (propane) tank pressures vary between 100 and 200 psi depending on the temp of the tank (higher temps mean higher pressures). To have as many BTUs stored in a CNG tank as you can have stored in a LPG tank, you would need a large tank ALSO capable of holding 4000+ psi. Not realistic....nor safe! Think of your welding tanks (C25, Argon, oxygen etc). They all hold compressed gases. Typically around 3000 psi. By compressing the gases, you can get more of them into the tank.

 

[Hobby_Man22]

Does it expand when it exits as a vapor? Always wondered about this. Liquid doesn't really compress and then they're only allowed to fill to 80 percent.

 

[NWOhioChevyGuy]

Does it expand when it exits as a vapor? Always wondered about this. Liquid doesn't really compress and then they're only allowed to fill to 80 percent.

See the graph below to answer some of your question. Otherwise go here https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/propane-d_1423.html

 

[NWOhioChevyGuy]

I was always told that since propane was a byproduct of the oil and gas business and needs to be striped of impurities you always want to buy it from a reputable source. There are different grades of propane and different blends .... you want to make sure you are getting the one for cooking if using it for a residence.

The blends with more impurities can effect the burners on modulating furnaces .... my memory is the stuff used in industry is no as refined and has more butane

Around here they would call that "dryer gas" used by farmers and others to dry grain after harvest. No one would sell that to a home owner.

 

[toyotadriver]

Does it expand when it exits as a vapor? Always wondered about this. Liquid doesn't really compress and then they're only allowed to fill to 80 percent.

It’s technically expanding inside the tank as it vaporizes. It’s the vapor that creates the pressure. You fill the tank leaving some air space above the liquid (usually around 80%) so you have room for it to vaporize. As you draw off propane, the vaporization causes the temp in the tank to cool down. If it’s already cold outside and you pull propane fast enough you can cause the temp in the tank to drop so low that the propane slows or even stops vaporizing. The bigger the tank the more thermal mass you have and the less likely to have a freeze up.

 

[Firebrick43]

Around here they would call that "dryer gas" used by farmers and others to dry grain after harvest. No one would sell that to a home owner.T

There is HD5 which is 90 percent (or more propane, no more than 5 percent polypylene, and no more than 5 percent butane/methane. This is most of the consumer propane in the USA. Most companies "dryer gas" is the same fuel, out of the same truck and terminal that serves houses and is HD5, at least here in indiana

HD10 has 90 percent propane and up to 10 percent propylene and is used for large commercial uses.

Then there is a lower grade of commercial that is 90 pecent propane but can have different ratio of other gases,

And there is pure propane, R290 which is used as a refrigerant.