Measure this,....

[andyvh1959]

I tend to more easily visualize a width in inch standard (like said above to show an 1/8" gap with your fingers) than in metric standard. To me, I can easily visualize an inch fraction, more so than to visualize 3.175 mm. Yet over time I have gotten better able to "see" widths and thickness in metric standard.

When I was a kid in the garage with my dad, him working on some old Mercedes or a BMW Isetta, I was always flabbergasted how he'd just look at a bolt or nut and say "hand me the 14mm box end wrench" and it'd be the right wrench. I realized years later it was a calibrated eye, but also knowing the standard common bolt or nut sizes per the application. Now, British Whitworth, you're on your own there.

 

[RTM]

Now ,for those of us who can't read a vernier scale how ,in the example above did we get from 3.3_ cm in step 1, where I assume _ is the value in step 2 shouldn't it read 3.34 cm? where did the 1 come from?

3.34, typo by the graphics guy who can't read a vernier and type at the same time.

Or his computer thought the caliper looked like a pi symbol, and auto correct kicked in.

 

[4xdog]

And forty years ago, everyone called them Helios....

It is indeed. I don't think they make them anymore. I just figured calling calipers Helios was a regional thing. Like soda n pop n coke.

Did someone mention Helios? I've had -- and used -- these for forty years. But TBH, I've never heard a vernier caliper generically called a Helios before...

 

[andyvh1959]

Yup, 3.34 on that example on how to read a vernier caliper. Maybe that's the point of the example, to see if the reader just agrees with it (meaning not really understanding the example), or actually study it to see, "wait, no, that is incorrect, the correct result is 3.34."

 

[4xdog]

As an old carpenter, I much prefer the Stanley style. The ones that I can not stand are the tape measures with both inch and metric scales on the same blade. I use my tapes in different directions, depending on what I am doing, and can read the inch scale from both sides. Those with the metric half just screw me up....

And for me, I seek out dual-scale metric-inch tape measures. I find it easier to stay in the original system of whatever item I'm measuring, so, say a bicycle frame that was built in cm gets measured in cm. And sometimes one scale or another just seems to suit the task better.

I've spend my life in the sciences working around the globe, though, so meter-Celcius or inch-Fahrenheit is all the same to me.

 

[Old Man Roger]

A former boss: I need a piece of 2" pipe 34" and 5 little marks long.

I've used this technique before..lol The new guy was running the saw while we were putting up clap board siding.

 

[KansasArt]

I recall another form of measurement not mentioned yet. When something was just a little too short or too long it was a ????? hair too long or short.

 

[redwrench60]

World runs on metric. Accept the inevitable move towards it. 0.125” = 3.175 mm.
Metric strength comes from easy conversions from the base 10 application. By moving a decimal point you can go up or down easier. Hard to do when you have a **** load of fractions.

I never said I couldn’t use metric or understand it. Quite the opposite. It’s just not how I visualize the world. It’s not the language I learned.

I carry a .45 ACP not an 11.43 MM ACP

When I had Covid my temperature got up to 102.9F not 39.4C

The spark plug gap on my truck is .060” not 1.524 MM

Speed limit on the way to the Home Depot to buy 12’ long 2x6’s is 40 MPH

My world is not running on metric.

 

[Swervyjoe]

I haven't used as much metric as freedom, but when I have, it was in millimetres and meters. Never centimeters.

 

[AreBeeBee]

You know, in the example of how-to-read-vernier, you can actually see that the index 0 is just about halfway between the 3.3 and the 3.4, so the proper vernier reading is 3.34, as pointed out.

It's possible to drop down a rabbit hole in reading these things (same goes for micrometers, too), but it helps to step back a moment for a sanity check when you arrive at what appears to be the answer.

 

[fartymarty]

3.34, typo by the graphics guy who can't read a vernier and type at the same time.

Or his computer thought the caliper looked like a pi symbol, and auto correct kicked in.

Ha! he said pi symbol....my segue..

So with all this vernier talk here, has anybody used Pi tapes to measure diameter. Pretty sure they are available in metric too but we used inches years ago when I worked at Westinghouse making gas turbines for power generation. I guess now they make them digital but years ago there was no way they wouldn't be vernier.

Time marches on....when I was telling a youngin' that I was so old that as a kid I actually heard the single frequency old dial tone on a phone before they replaced it with the newer dual frequency dial tone needed for touch tone lines. She properly put me in my place by asking "what's a dial tone?"

 

[merkyworks]

Oh yeah Pi tape….I’ve used that to measure large ball valve balls cause you couldnt use calipers/mics.

 

[PelicanPines]

To know how big something is... I read the label I put on it when I bought it. Back during my college days... I worked in a lab... we had an electron microscope. Not one of the PHDs in the department could read the calibration scale. It's all about age... I was 19... I could read it clearly. But now that I'm 62ish... I could understand why the PHDs couldn't read the scales.

 

[andyvh1959]

Or,...the PHD's could fully explain the theories of the calibration scales but not how to apply the functions of the calibration scales.

Some of the best, most capable engineers I have worked with were two year associate degree educated, but with real world experience and and inherent knowledge of how things worked. Some of the least capable engineers, in an application sense, were four year degree (book smart), or doctorate level engineers.

 

[mogandave]

Did someone mention Helios? I've had -- and used -- these for forty years. But TBH, I've never heard a vernier caliper generically called a Helios before...

Well, you can't say that anymore huh?

 

[rancherbill]

....Not able to "see" the sixteenths of an inch on the tape measure? For that matter the 32nds or 64ths.

.....he didn't answer, she looked up and pointed to the analog clock on the wall. He said, "I can't tell the time on that." Sad.

Have you heard the world in going metric and digital.

I had some Europeans working here and there were helping cut. Fractions drove them insane, I switched to millimeters and it worked out well.

I don't think they teach fractions in school past quarters.

 

[Kenstone1]

Have you heard the world in going metric and digital.

I had some Europeans working here and there were helping cut. Fractions drove them insane, I switched to millimeters and it worked out well.

I don't think they teach fractions in school past quarters.

Yep, anyone can count to ten...
jmo,
.

 

[Meursault74]

vernier scale. Took me back to high school chemistry class. I remember the triple beam balance had a vernier scale, we had to know how to read it. Same principle as reading on a caliper.

Looks like it's still taught.

Those scales are pretty tough, no way letting HS students use the digital ones.

 

[mogandave]

Have you heard the world in going metric and digital.

I had some Europeans working here and there were helping cut. Fractions drove them insane, I switched to millimeters and it worked out well.

I don't think they teach fractions in school past quarters.

Thailand is metric. Our plant (HVAC sheet metal) worked off cutsheets from the US all in inches. Much of our equipment was from the US and in inches as well. It was pretty easy to get the guys to learn inches and use a fractional scale. I think for most people, once learned, it's easier to read a fractional inch scale than a cm scale.

I did catch a production supervisor with a hammer and punch tightening the hook rivets on a box of new Stanley 10'/3m tapes...

 

[Old Man Roger]

I did catch a production supervisor with a hammer and punch tightening the hook rivets on a box of new Stanley 10'/3m tapes...

That’s hilarious, would’ve loved to seen the look on his face when you explained to him why they were supposed to move. lol

 

[RoninB4]

Have you heard the world in going metric and digital.

I don't think they teach fractions in school past quarters.

-There was a push to "go metric" back in the late 1970's and I bought some tooling/instruments to be ready for the future of manufacturing. Well that was over 40 years ago and it still hasn't happened. Metric may be somewhat easier to work with but the inch unit is not that much more difficult to work with unless you're just too lazy to learn it. Conversions can be done in your head if a little effort is put forth to do so.

As for digital, it's not more accurate than analog (for most things) and sorta reinforces the notion of being told what to repeat instead of interpreting/reading what the information contains. Another vote for laziness. I like some things being analog instead of digital, speedometers/tachometers, dial indicators, pressure gauges, etc. I like to estimate rate of change, and the amount of variation for some things.

Not teaching fractions beyond quarters? Well that's certainly a step forward isn't it? Wouldn't want to crowd a small brain with useless information would we? Common Core math for the win too eh? Not a Luddite but it seems like change without real benefit is change for the sake of change. To each their own.

 

[redwrench60]

I work in a world where measuring instruments are used constantly, and for a variety of applications. But outside of the trades and the DIY crowd most people have no use for a tape measure let alone a vernier caliper.

I have had young guys on my crew who can’t read or write in cursive. They have never written a check in their lives and have no idea how a checking account works. It was never part of their education. But they blow me away in computer and software skills because that’s what they were taught. They’re far from stupid, they just need someone to be patient and show them new skills. After a little hazing of course!

 

[Meursault74]

I work in a world where measuring instruments are used constantly, and for a variety of applications. But outside of the trades and the DIY crowd most people have no use for a tape measure let alone a vernier caliper.

I have had young guys on my crew who can’t read or write in cursive. They have never written a check in their lives and have no idea how a checking account works. It was never part of their education. But they blow me away in computer and software skills because that’s what they were taught. They’re far from stupid, they just need someone to be patient and show them new skills. After a little hazing of course!

I'm of the mind that everyone should be taught the basic fundamentals, after that it's easier to use "more advanced" methods. I still have a checking account that I opened last century. Don't write many, but I know how it works. Wasn't too difficult to figure out how Paypal, Venmo, debit cards etc work after that.

When I was in college, I used to graph data by hand on "engineering paper" in the lab, most of the profs wanted it that way so you knew what you were doing vs plug and chug. Plus, the computers where somewhere else in a computer room at that time. Knowing how to graph by hand, and it was easy to tell "Excel" how to do it. I haven't graphed by hand since college though. It takes too long. I have other things to do at work. Makes you appreciate the speed of the computer more. Plus I don't think my eyes could handle that paper anymore .

I remember back in HS woodshop, I had to make several types of joints by hand before I was allowed to make a project with hand tools utilizing those joints. Once that was done, moved on to power tools. I have made a dovetail joint by hand. Last time I made a project with them at home, it was with a router and jig. Still had to use a sharp hand chisel to shave a few spots to make everything fit perfectly though.

 

[rancherbill]

Not teaching fractions beyond quarters? Well that's certainly a step forward isn't it? Wouldn't want to crowd a small brain with useless information would we? Common Core math for the win too eh? Not a Luddite but it seems like change without real benefit is change for the sake of change. To each their own.

Quick what's 15/32 + 3/8

 

[Wiz02]

It's really not that hard multiply 3x4 = 12 and add that to 15 in order to get 27/32 or am I missing something

 

[rancherbill]

It's really not that hard multiply 3x4 = 12 and add that to 15 in order to get 27/32 or am I missing something

It's not if you spent hours and hours over years learning common denominators. My wife was a teacher and it consumed a lot of time teaching fractions.

It is much easier to add .75 + .375 = You know addition of 3 digits by grade two. The teacher moves onto the next topic.

 

[luvtheheat]

I like it when you tell someone it's "a quarter after 4" and their response is "4:25, thanks!". For real...

 

[Meursault74]

It's not if you spent hours and hours over years learning common denominators. My wife was a teacher and it consumed a lot of time teaching fractions.

It is much easier to add .75 + .375 = You know addition of 3 digits by grade two. The teacher moves onto the next topic.

well sometimes it's how you phrase it. If Johnny has 10 dime bags and sells half of them, how much money did he take in?

Who would say: If Johnny has 10 dime bags and sells 0.5 of them, how much money did he take in?

If you didn't know fractions, how would you convert half to 0.5.

 

[Wiz02]

@rancherbill, while it's true that you have to get to a common denominator, using multiplication to do so, and then add 2 whole numbers, the degree of difficulty doesn't seem all that much different than adding decimals. And both systems require you to carry numbers, although for metric you only have to know how to carry numbers in base 10.

It's not that I'm defending US / Imperial measures, because a decimal based system is much easier to understand and is consistent. However, I do wonder about the educational methods used, if your wife had such difficulty in communicating to her students how to manipulate fractions.

And as @Meursault74 points out, fractions aren't going anywhere. Even in metric based countries, no one asks for 500g of deli at a shop, it's half or a quarter of a kilo. I will skip the concept of thirds, because very few people working the deli counter that don't have a few miles on their odometer can give you 1/3 of a pound of lunch meat here in the US, and I never tried asking for 1/3 of a kilo when traveling.

Now to show that I'm not a total Luddite, interpolating logarithms by looking them up in the handbook of chemistry and physics is a complete waste of time. That chore can go directly into the dustbin of passe activities, since calculators or computers handle that with ease.

 

[andyvh1959]

Fractions flash cards, still remember those from the math class in 3rd grade (I think) at St Joes in Appleton. Lots of memorizing, but it's locked in there. Not the place to start a rant on the wierd/complicated methods applied to basic math these days.

Post above about making joints with hand tools before using power tools, reminds me of something my dad said about Technical School back in Holland in the early 40's: in the machining class he was instructed to use various hand files on a block of steel in order to make two faces of the block 90 degrees to each other, to a specific dimension and a specific surface finish. He was taught to produce a machined block of steel by hand, with hand files, before moving on to powered machining equipment. Its like back in high school when calculators 1st came out. Our math teachers required us to do the math manually before allowing us to just push buttons to get/accept whatever came up.

 

[BillK]

My wife used to be the registrar at a local high school. She had a student in her office working on his schedule, she asked him for the time, he didn't answer, she looked up and pointed to the analog clock on the wall. He said, "I can't tell the time on that." Sad.

Very sad. Last week my Wife asked if we could have pizza for dinner so I said sure. I called our favorite place around
3:30 and asked the guy if i could order a pizza but not have it ready till later on. He said sure what time do you want to pick it up ? I told him I would be there around "quarter to 5" There was silence on the phone for about 20 seconds so I asked him if he got the order ok. He said he was trying to figure out what time that was I told him 4:45 and then all was good. Funny thing was when I walked in the store there was a huge round clock on the wall right behind the counter.

 

[Wiz02]

Fractions flash cards, still remember those from the math class in 3rd grade (I think) at St Joes in Appleton. Lots of memorizing, but it's locked in there. Not the place to start a rant on the wierd/complicated methods applied to basic math these days.

Post above about making joints with hand tools before using power tools, reminds me of something my dad said about Technical School back in Holland in the early 40's: in the machining class he was instructed to use various hand files on a block of steel in order to make two faces of the block 90 degrees to each other, to a specific dimension and a specific surface finish. He was taught to produce a machined block of steel by hand, with hand files, before moving on to powered machining equipment. Its like back in high school when calculators 1st came out. Our math teachers required us to do the math manually before allowing us to just push buttons to get/accept whatever came up.

My Dad made me use a bit and brace before giving in and letting me use an electric drill. It took much longer to get permission to use the circular saw, and I was in junior high school before I used the radial arm saw. I too remember the no calculator policy for tests in school but I think that teaching methods do need to change over time to accommodate changes in technology.

We don't require learning Latin or Greek history as a major component of a college education, nor do most people know how to harness a horse or use other 19th century technology. I don't know where to draw the line, but we have so much more technical knowledge today than in the past that we have to let go of certain historical practices in order to complete an education in a reasonable time.

That being said, if you can't do simple math without a calculator, then I don't see how you can be competent in almost any field. Now when we have a direct interface between our brains and computers, then the entire educational process will be upended.

 

[andyvh1959]

It's really not that hard multiply 3x4 = 12 and add that to 15 in order to get 27/32 or am I missing something

That's a short way to "convert each fraction to the lowest common denominator, then apply the math function." 15/32 + 12/32 = 27/32, or 1 and 5/32. And that is why I can never pass a 5/3 Bank and yell to myself, "that's wrong, it's 1 and 2/3 bank!"

 

[RTM]

I think you are off by 10/32

 

[Bad Eye Bill]

Quick what's 15/32 + 3/8

Just a black one shy of 7/8".

 

[rancherbill]

@rancherbill However, I do wonder about the educational methods used, if your wife had such difficulty in communicating to her students how to manipulate fractions.

They are new math and old math techniques. A lot of time is spent on skills that are outdated. It is taking away from teaching skills that are necessary today.

 

[rancherbill]

well sometimes it's how you phrase it. If Johnny has 10 dime bags and sells half of them, how much money did he take in?

Who would say: If Johnny has 10 dime bags and sells 0.5 of them, how much money did he take in?

If you didn't know fractions, how would you convert half to 0.5.

Maybe Johnny wouldn't have to sell dope if he'd got a good education.

 

[Firebrick43]

Ha, just realized my description of a dial vernier caliper could be a misnomer. Though, even with a dial, it does have a vernier scale on the beam. Type in a Google search for a vernier caliper and see what comes up, mostly true vernier (no dial, no digital) but also vernier scale with a digital display. Type in dial caliper and up comes what I mistakenly described as a dial vernier caliper. So, I like a dial caliper.

Your stride, length of a finger or forearm, folding rule, tape measure, vernier caliper, micrometer, laser (?), all depends on the level of accuracy needed when measuring a distance, length or thickness. Just glad I was raised by a dad who knew the effectiveness of every option and how to use them. In a life skills class, even for students not going into the trades, its still good to teach kids how to use a tape measure.

With the name Helios brought up, I just now recall I have a classic Helios caliper in the pouch in my tool cart. It was my dad's, along with the Starett micrometer that my dad used. Before my dad passed, when he knew it was coming, he requested to be buried in a brand new pair of Craftsman blue coveralls, with tools in his folded hands along with a Rosary. I may request to go the same way, tribute to him. He was the only blue collar guy from his family of five brothers and two sisters, all of them were professionals, business owners, but he was damned proud of his career choice, right to the end.

That is not a vernier scale on the beam of a dial caliper. Its just a plain .100" scale.

A vernier scale is one that can read to a fine measurement such as .001" on calipers and .0001" on micrometers. Its is not a true reading scale. But an additional scale that measurements are much more than the actual measurement being made. The mechanical interpolation and the opposing lines(both missing on dial calipers) is what makes it readable to a .001"

 

[rancherbill]

I have had young guys on my crew who can’t read or write in cursive. They have never written a check in their lives and have no idea how a checking account works. It was never part of their education. But they blow me away in computer and software skills because that’s what they were taught. They’re far from stupid, they just need someone to be patient and show them new skills. After a little hazing of course!

They are ready for now and the future. All the things you mention have gone away.

 

[Wiz02]

They are new math and old math techniques. A lot of time is spent on skills that are outdated. It is taking away from teaching skills that are necessary today.

Back in the 60's, my Dad had a row with the elementary school teacher, over the stupidity of "new math". I ended up learning from my Mom and Dad how to do basic math, and it was far simpler and easier than the way the Teacher was showing us. Sounds like things haven't changed much.

So while I agree in principle that teaching outdated skills should stop, I don't think that basic math skills including fractions are outdated, however, this leads us down the path of discussing how do we prepare young people for the future and that is an entirely different topic.