Yard engines operating in cold weather - long term harm from overcooling?

[roc_on_the_rocks]

Just curious... do you guys do any mods to small engines when operating in cold weather (32°F/0°C and below)? Like partially taping air colling ports? (which can be an issue if overdone)

I know on higher tech engines operating hard when cold or overcooled can result in piston/cylinder scuffing, among other issues. But this is likely not an issue on engines with looser dimensional tolerances like small engines.

I own these yard machines for a long time and never had any evident problem:

• Husqvarna 150BT leaf blower
• John Deere X310 Lawn Mower (Kawasaki FS600V engine)
• DR Power Pilot 200 Tow-Behind Leaf & Lawn Vacuum (house branded DR engine) - this is newer in the fleet, bought last year

PS.: I use Mobil 1 5W-30 on all my 4T yard machines, please refrain from oil debates.

Thanks!

 

[beemerphile]

You missed your chance to avoid an oil debate by mentioning what you use.

 

[roc_on_the_rocks]

You missed your chance to avoid an oil debate by mentioning what you use.

LOL, I have a dedicated threat for that debate: Mobil 1 oil in lawn mower?

 

[finn]

32 degrees hardly qualifies as cold.

Remember, similar engines in this class operate in snowblower applications at 29/25 degrees below zero, with no ill effects. Snowmobiles ice augers, and chainsaws operate there too.

You’re not going to be doing much lawn mowing or leaf blowing at those temperatures, but the engines are capable of running there.

 

[Fav Onefour]

We run the sleds in cold temps. The newer models limit rpms until engine is up to temp. The 2S sleds also use injection oil that is better formulated to flow in super cold temps. The cold flow formulation is more for the small oil lines and electronic oil pumps.
The engines run stronger with cold air.

Let the engines warm up a bit and give er.

 

[theoldwizard1]

32 degrees hardly qualifies as cold.

CONCUR !

I remember watching a YouTube video where they were having problems with a Honda 3000 generator when it was running in SUB-ZERO temps ! They were running the recommended oil (5W30?) and the dealer could not fix it. They finally switched to synthetic 0W20 and no more issues !

 

[joe_padavano]

I own these yard machines for a long time and never had any evident problem:

So why do you think you have a problem now? Do you think the manufacturers are too stupid to design their equipment to operate under a wide variety of temperatures?

 

[mike93lx]

Total non issue. They are designed for the application

 

[Garcky]

My snowblowers in Minnesota reached normal operating temperature quickly after starting. Plus, they always started just fine, regardless of how low the temperature was. Typically, when temps were -15 or lower, there wouldn't be snow falling. But, I have used a snowblower in -10 F a number of times. I always gave the things about a minute of fast idle before putting them to work. Both of the machines I owned lasted for 10 years, and were still running when I gave them away. I used 5W20 oil in them, as recommended by the manufacturer.

So, I guess it's not that big a problem, really.

 

[roc_on_the_rocks]

So why do you think you have a problem now? Do you think the manufacturers are too stupid to design their equipment to operate under a wide variety of temperatures?

Did I write anywhere in my post "I have a problem"?
I only saw: "I'm curious..."

I work for an engine manufacturer (bigger engines) for 26 years, I think I have that part well covered, thanks.

 

[finn]

Did I write anywhere in my post "I have a problem"?
I only saw: "I'm curious..."

I work for an engine manufacturer (bigger engines) for 26 years, I think I have that part well covered, thanks.

Then you know that low temperature operation is part of the qualification for all engines. I suspect that in addition to their own cold room, they (small engine manufacturers) also do extensive pre production qualification in Northern Minnesota, Canada, the Rockies, and New Zealand, just like the manufacturers of their big brothers.

 

[roc_on_the_rocks]

Then you know that low temperature operation is part of the qualification for all engines. I suspect that in addition to their own cold room, they (small engine manufacturers) also do extensive pre production qualification in Northern Minnesota, Canada, the Rockies, and New Zealand, just like the manufacturers of their big brothers.

Yes finn, I'm intimately aware of the development and validation tests we do with our engines (in cold test cells and trucks in cold test trips) but one significant difference is that all of our engines are water cooled, with a thermostat. These small engines are air cooled, absent of any thermostat, so their operating temperature will always be an offset of ambient temperature.

Engines certainly can be designed to endure this large ambient temperature range (hotter than 110°F to colder than -20°F), but there are tradeoffs (e.g.: greater than desirable piston to cylinder wall clearance).

Old school truckers and farmers used to put air shutters in front of the radiators, but that's rare nowadays.

Again, I am not particularly concerned, I just typed this thread while sipping my coffee before starting my leaf cleanup.

 

[TractorJeff]

Only comment I will make is that normal "Summer" designed Engines tend to freeze up in the Carb area. That is why most snowblowers have some sort of "Heat Box" in the Carb area to minimize frost buildup.
Admittedly, It is a good question to ponder on, but I wouldn't think about it after I finished my morning Coffee.

 

[Fav Onefour]

The old school truckers and farmers used cardboard (or shutters) to make the heaters work better. In some cases, it built up heat to help keep fuel from gelling in the filters.
Some of your small engines do have a cold weather switch. It is really just a cheater choke vs. the old school style.

@roc_on_the_rocks , I'm with you on the curiosity side. I think about stuff like that all the time too. Sometimes the brain just likes to keep busy with stuff and stays in gear.
We deal with cold too. I often see those winter test vehicles. Small engine pretty much just keep doing their own thing. Honestly, if there is a problem on new stuff, it's often the fancy schmancy electronics or bad gas. (water in the blend)

 

[finn]

Yes finn, I'm intimately aware of the development and validation tests we do with our engines (in cold test cells and trucks in cold test trips) but one significant difference is that all of our engines are water cooled, with a thermostat. These small engines are air cooled, absent of any thermostat, so their operating temperature will always be an offset of ambient temperature.

Engines certainly can be designed to endure this large ambient temperature range (hotter than 110°F to colder than -20°F), but there are tradeoffs (e.g.: greater than desirable piston to cylinder wall clearance).

Old school truckers and farmers used to put air shutters in front of the radiators, but that's rare nowadays.

Again, I am not particularly concerned, I just typed this thread while sipping my coffee before starting my leaf cleanup.

Pretty sure they sell air cooled engines in Northern Canada, and Alaska. Not many lawn mowers or leaf blowers running at -60 F, though.

They undoubtedly run generators at those temperatures, though. And most small generators are air cooled.

 

[Sumboodie]

Then you know that low temperature operation is part of the qualification for all engines. I suspect that in addition to their own cold room, they (small engine manufacturers) also do extensive pre production qualification in Northern Minnesota, Canada, the Rockies, and New Zealand, just like the manufacturers of their big brothers.

Some outfits do testing in AK as well. I've seen quite a few vehicles with the zebra camouflage stuff around Fairbanks, as well as some in Prudhoe.

 

[Sumboodie]

Only comment I will make is that normal "Summer" designed Engines tend to freeze up in the Carb area. That is why most snowblowers have some sort of "Heat Box" in the Carb area to minimize frost buildup.
Admittedly, It is a good question to ponder on, but I wouldn't think about it after I finished my morning Coffee.

Also the crank breather.

I had a Generac freeze that up and blew the crank seal.

 

[roc_on_the_rocks]

Some outfits do testing in AK as well. I've seen quite a few vehicles with the zebra camouflage stuff around Fairbanks, as well as some in Prudhoe.

Yes Sumboodie, we do Field Test (customer-owened/customer-operated trucks, upfitted with prototype engines) in several hand-picked locations in North America, and Fairbanks is certainly a staple. I was there in Feb/2017.

We also do Engineered Test trips, and our cold destination is typically Colorado (Frisco/Silverstone). They used to go to Yellowknife, but it's too expensive/complicated. Prudhoe Bay was another destination that we don't go anymore, unless in special cases.

Modern diesel engines aren't challenged by cold weather anymore, but keeping the aftertreatment hot takes constant attention.

 

[finn]

Some outfits do testing in AK as well. I've seen quite a few vehicles with the zebra camouflage stuff around Fairbanks, as well as some in Prudhoe.

My son just got back from winter testing in Ak. Back to testing in Upper Michigan next, probably Moab later in the spring, maybe New Zealand again in the summer to catch some more snow.

At my previous employer, we flew vehicles to Alaska, but used Northern Minnesota, as well as Thompson in Canada, Plus the mountains outside of Denver for altitude calibration.

 

[finn]

Also the crank breather.

I had a Generac freeze that up and blew the crank seal.

Sounds like my carpenter’s little GMS suv. Breather ices up and something has to give, so the rear crank seal fails.

 

[jblnut]

I run the ol' MS250 chainsaw in everything from 90F to -20F and I can tell you for sure that is it much happier in -20F than the 90F. The carb needs some lovin' at -20F but I try to tune it outside in the cold and usually store inside in the warmth.

My LX176 Deere mower doesn't seem to care about the cold either. Starts with the choke full on I'm -20F or 90F above.

Other than the A/F mix being different and oil being thicker in the cold what would really affect an engine in the cold ? Let it get warm until you put the onions to it and I'd think it'd be happy

 

[Sumboodie]

Yes Sumboodie, we do Field Test (customer-owened/customer-operated trucks, upfitted with prototype engines) in several hand-picked locations in North America, and Fairbanks is certainly a staple. I was there in Feb/2017.

We also do Engineered Test trips, and our cold destination is typically Colorado (Frisco/Silverstone). They used to go to Yellowknife, but it's too expensive/complicated. Prudhoe Bay was another destination that we don't go anymore, unless in special cases.

Modern diesel engines aren't challenged by cold weather anymore, but keeping the aftertreatment hot takes constant attention.

An outfit had a few in Prudhoe this last winter... March-April time frame.
SUV lookin blobby things. Wouldn't have even noticed it aside from the goofy "camoflage" stuff catch my eye.

On the slope, most of the light duty stuff is gasoline these days. Companies got tired of the costs of the new diesels, both in initial costs and maintenance/down time.
For a while it was so bad they had lines of them waiting on engines and DEF system parts.
These are companies that are buying several million $$ of trucks at a time.


I have a 2018 Dodge 2500 with the 6.2L hemi.
With how bad it rattles on cold starts, even with it plugged in, I worry it's on it's deadbed. Only has about 9,000hrs on it.

 

[Renegade1LI]

Most manuals give the temp range & oil type for that temp range, pretty good indicator for engine operating range.

 

[Boilerhouse]

Something not mentioned, and I know it certainly applies to chainsaws in the winter, is that if they are sitting cold in outside temps for any length of time, they should be idled to warm up for a minute or so, before being given full beans.

 

[matt_i]

I had some issues with a propane forklift when I left it outdoors for hanging my building trusses thru the winter. It always started and ran OK but when I checked oil the next spring I had the start of a milkshake. I thought I had blown a headgasket (Continental Y112 flathead) but it has turned out not to be that issue (coolant was still full and it hasn't repeated itself after indoor use). Propane combustion produces a considerable amount of water and my thought is it was concentrated in the crankcase via typical leaking past the rings which is probably also the slowest part to warm up.

However this is atypical to have propane fuel.

Regardless of any brand of oil, if you were starting and running a considerable amount in cold temps I'd personally reduce the viscosity from 15W- to something like 5W-.

 

[dcg9381]

Wouldn't the same apply to general aviation aircraft motors? They're air cooled... Think big VW motor. What I was always taught it let it come up to operating temp before putting load on it. I'd assume the same is true for all air cooled motors - even small engines.

 

[andyvh1959]

And air cooled aircraft engines always operate at low temps. Air temp drops as elevation increases. So sea level at 59F becomes 23F at 10,000 feet.

Don't over think it, the manufacturers have the operating ranges of the air cooled engines covered.