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Installing arc-fault/gfic breakers in main panel - neutral bar vs ground bar

MalibuLX3

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My main electrical panel is mounted to the exterior of my garage. The main panel supplies 125 amps to a sub panel within my house. I am looking to replace a few of the breakers on my main panel that feed the circuits within the garage. I've already removed some of the old wiring and breakers from the box, so that's my it looks a bit bare as it is now. I'd like to use dual function AFCI and GFCI breakers in the top right 2 slots where I've already removed 2 20 amp breakers.
I understand that the neutral pig tail coming out of the dual function breaker should connect to the neutral bar.

My question is, on my main panel, the neutral bar and the ground bar are connected. Does that mean that I can connect the pig tail from the dual function breaker to either side of the panel? Or, with my panel, do I need to install all of my breakers on the left side of the panel, as I believe that's the neutral bar vs the ground bar on the right.
 

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wyliesdiesels

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In the main service panel, the neutral buss(es) and ground buss(es) are at equal potential due to the required neutral bond.

However, code doesnt allow neutral current to be carried through the enclosure. So you should use the neutral bar.

Having said that, why do you want dual function breakers? AFCIs may drive you nuts.
 

Innovate1

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A little hard to see all the details on the label but there is a jumper between the two sides bars that is not the enclosure so it might be ok to use either one. The diagram shows and the notes above show the ground bar as an accessory and not included so it appears both sides are considered neutral bars and also usable for grounds. I am guessing since this is a combined meter/panel there is no ground bonding screw since this can never be a subpanel where they would be separated.
 

sparky 1971

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You can connect on either side, that bar at the bottom ties to two sides together.

There is a reason AFCI protection isn't required in garages. That reason is that there's no way they will hold when trying to run a power tool. Same thing with bathrooms, they won't stand a chance against a hair dryer.
 

u2slow

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The bar on the left and right, plus the link between, comprise the neutral bar.

What's missing is a proper ground bar. The grounds have been landed on the neutral because they are electrically the same at the main.

The two silver 'buttons' on the right side are likely hiding screw holes intended for the ground bar.
 

beemerphile

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There is a reason AFCI protection isn't required in garages. That reason is that there's no way they will hold when trying to run a power tool. Same thing with bathrooms, they won't stand a chance against a hair dryer.
The undisguised goal of both AFCI involved code making panels is its complete application to all 15A and 20A circuits. The garage and bathroom circuits are likely in the gunsight along with what they can get of old construction. Mandating their use in garages and bathrooms would not be the first example of AFCI's being written into the Code before working products were available.

To co-opt a sermon title by Rev. S.M. Lockridge ... "It's 2020, but 2023's coming!"
 

Mzungu

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The bar on the left and right, plus the link between, comprise the neutral bar.

What's missing is a proper ground bar. The grounds have been landed on the neutral because they are electrically the same at the main.

The two silver 'buttons' on the right side are likely hiding screw holes intended for the ground bar.
Different rules in the USA. They are allowed to land neutrals and grounds together on the neutral bar in a main service panel.
 

u2slow

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Not questioning the rule. Just explaining the mfr's panel arrangement.

Separating the grounds from the neutrals onto their own bars makes certain troubleshooting and testing operations easier.
 

u2slow

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Please explain how / which tests
Once you unlink the neutral bar from the ground (green or brass screw) you can check that your neutrals are isolated.

My worksite gets annual megger testing. It's less wires to pull off terminals in a crowded panel.
 

alfredeneuman

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I've never seen that on residential installations.
There are only 2 jurisdictions in all of SoCA that require it for a final inspection
EDIT: I just thought of one more....You have to detach the link to do a GFI test (only on complete wye connected services over 1000A 480/277V ) :D
 
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u2slow

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Now you are getting into commercial locations. OP has a residential garage. Keep it simple...

No distinction here. A ground bar comes with every panel so I find it odd when it's missing.

Simple is to use a neutral bar position near the respective breaker. At least the grounds aren't taking many neutral spaces.
 

sparky 1971

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The undisguised goal of both AFCI involved code making panels is its complete application to all 15A and 20A circuits. The garage and bathroom circuits are likely in the gunsight along with what they can get of old construction. Mandating their use in garages and bathrooms would not be the first example of AFCI's being written into the Code before working products were available.

To co-opt a sermon title by Rev. S.M. Lockridge ... "It's 2020, but 2023's coming!"
And...the point is? I don't know what's coming for 2023, I'll worry about that before it gets adopted in 2024. It was either 1999 or 2002 when we first saw AFCI protection required for 120 volt bedroom circuits. The required areas keep getting added to every single code cycle, but it hasn't made it to garages, bathrooms, furnaces, unfinished rooms, yet. Why install something that doesn't work just in case it might be required in the future, in which case it wouldn't be required on an existing installation anyway unless it's being modified? AFCI protection does absolutely nothing beyond raise the price of the installation, so even if it were a permitted job, and this might be, why use them?
 
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wyliesdiesels

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No distinction here. A ground bar comes with every panel so I find it odd when it's missing.

Simple is to use a neutral bar position near the respective breaker. At least the grounds aren't taking many neutral spaces.
Not true, at least here in california. Other than meter mains (which have a combined neutral/grnd bar), not one panel Ive ever bought or seen came with a grnd bar. The grnd bars have to be purchased separately...
 

sparky 1971

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Not true, at least here in california. Other than meter mains (which have a combined neutral/grnd bar), not one panel Ive ever bought or seen came with a grnd bar. The grnd bars have to be purchased separately...
I put in a Siemens 100 amp main breaker panel as a sub at my brothers place Friday and it had a factory installed ground bar in it so I only needed one of the two bars that I bought for it. Then, halfway through the clusterf#@k, to make things easier, I decided to install another sub and picked up an eight space MLO Siemens and it didn't come with a ground bar, so I wound up using the left over bar, but it came with a bag that contained the bonding hardware.

In September I installed a 30 space MLO three phase QO panel for the county road department and it came with a ground bar. Kinda makes a guy wonder what the deciding factor is as far as whether it gets a factory bar or not.
 

Wiz02

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Not to go on a ground bar tangent, but when I bought my Eaton CH 100A main, 22 space panel a few years ago, there was no mention of a ground bar, so I bought a 21 ? circuit ground bar separately. I get the box home and open it to find that it has a ground bar. At first I'm annoyed that I wasted money on buying one, but the ground bar in the box was only a 10 ckt. What is the manufacturer's rationale? Add another one later?
 

Norcal

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Not to go on a ground bar tangent, but when I bought my Eaton CH 100A main, 22 space panel a few years ago, there was no mention of a ground bar, so I bought a 21 ? circuit ground bar separately. I get the box home and open it to find that it has a ground bar. At first I'm annoyed that I wasted money on buying one, but the ground bar in the box was only a 10 ckt. What is the manufacturer's rationale? Add another one later?
You can land 2 conductors under one screw on the ground bar as long as they are the same size & material, but I would have swapped it out anyway if already had it.
 

u2slow

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Maybe the mfr's are getting tired of making separate Canada and USA packages and have standardized.
 

beemerphile

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...It was either 1999 or 2002 when we first saw AFCI protection required for 120 volt bedroom circuits.
It was written into Code in 1999, but AFCI wasn't required to be implemented until January 2002 because nobody made one that worked yet. The only point of my response to your statement that garages and bathrooms were excluded because there was no workable solution didn't hold them back from writing it into the 1999 Code with no solution available.
The required areas keep getting added to every single code cycle, but it hasn't made it to garages, bathrooms, furnaces, unfinished rooms, yet. Why install something that doesn't work just in case it might be required in the future, in which case it wouldn't be required on an existing installation anyway unless it's being modified?
For existing installations, that is true so far. If new circuits are added, or a circuit is extended more than six feet, then AFCI is supposed to be retrofitted. In the workshop I have under construction now I do not have AFCI and am happy to get in before it is required. My state is quick to adopt new Code revisions. If I thought it was a real safety improvement, I'd implement it in advance of a Code requirement. The Code is not a best practices design manual, it is a set of minimum requirements.
AFCI protection does absolutely nothing beyond raise the price of the installation, so even if it were a permitted job, and this might be, why use them?
I'd say "very little" instead of "nothing".. The industry members of the code making panels have a vested interest in wider specification of AFCI and expanded requirements for retrofitting. They will do all they can to expand the AFCI Market because they would rather sell $60 breakers than $6 breakers, but they are going to have a hell of a time coming up with documentation to support that it does anything to reduce fire risk in the next decade or two. NFPA will have rooms full of house fire data since the requirement was fielded, but data doesn't equal conclusions. There is now 50 years of data to support the impact of GFCI's. The electrocution rate has steadily decreased over this period and one could point to the trend as "evidence" that GFCI's have improved safety. They undoubtedly have, but they cannot claim full responsibility for the improvement. That would ignore many other improvements made since then. For example, 50 years ago if you ran a drill through a power circuit in a wall, you would be holding an all metal drill by the metal handle. if you did it today you would be holding the plastic handle of a drill whose only visible metal is the chuck and bit - neither of which you hold while drilling. So, even if the particular circuit was not GFCI protected, your risk of electrocution is prevented.

By the way, as an engineer, every time I ran up on an electrician nicknamed "Sparky", there was a story to go with it. Do you have one?
 

Wiz02

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You can land 2 conductors under one screw on the ground bar as long as they are the same size & material, but I would have swapped it out anyway if already had it.
Which is what I did, 2 conductors under 1 screw just feels wrong.
 

Wiz02

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It's only wrong if landing 2 neutrals, or 1 neutral & 1 grounding conductor under 1 screw.
I agree that is the code, but if you think about it, if it's not code compliant for neutrals to land 2 wires on a single connector, why is it ok for grounds?
 

wyliesdiesels

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I agree that is the code, but if you think about it, if it's not code compliant for neutrals to land 2 wires on a single connector, why is it ok for grounds?
because EGCs are not current carrying conductors, dont carry current under normal conditions. only fault current during a fault...
 

Wiz02

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because EGCs are not current carrying conductors, dont carry current under normal conditions. only fault current during a fault...
And so, that means the rationale for having one wire per connection isn't relevant during a fault? I know that using a bigger ground bar is a small thing, but it's cheap and easy to do. If it's something a pro doesn't want to bother with, no problem.
 

beemerphile

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And so, that means the rationale for having one wire per connection isn't relevant during a fault? I know that using a bigger ground bar is a small thing, but it's cheap and easy to do. If it's something a pro doesn't want to bother with, no problem.
You are always free to go beyond compliance. Though there is no practical need to limit yourself to one ground per terminal, there is no Code issue with doing so.
 
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