PEX confusion - is this just marketing?

[DGersic]

I’m planning to replace the plumbing here in my house, because it’s a ******* conglomeration of 1950 galvanized, 1970s copper, and some DIY **** done by somebody who should be kept away from tools.

It seems that everyone is going PEX, and researching It, it seems like a good direction to go. Looking at A vs. B, and I like the supposed better flow of A. But locally everything in the stores is the less expensive B. I’ll probably have to order A if that’s what I want. That then could get exciting if I turn up one fitting short.

Checking to see what I can get locally, Lowes has only B, and lots of SharkBite fittings. Menards has a better selection, with both A and B fittings. But the tube they’re selling doesn’t make sense. The Sioux Chief PowerPEX tube is type B, according to their web site.

https://www.siouxchief.com/docs/default-source/spec-sheets/specs-sheets-supply/664-665-series---pex-tube---powerpex.pdf?sfvrsn=1d3537_10

But they’re advertising it as crimp, clamp, OR expand fitting compatible.




I thought I understood that A is created so that it works with expansion fittings. B is created so that it works with crimp or clamp band fittings, and will not work with expansion. (I guess maybe a crimp ring would work on A with a B fitting, but that seems stupid to do except in emergencie.)

So what is Sioux Chief selling here? Is this some weird hybrid B that works with expansion?

 

[The Cobbler]

no idea on your question, but I have been told if you don't use the manufacturers compatible fittings you void any warranty on the pipe.

 

[LB-1911]

no idea on your question, but I have been told if you don't use the manufacturers compatible fittings you void any warranty on the pipe.

Warranty​

Warranties are important. That is why Sioux Chief has always had one of the best in the industry.

Unlike some companies, Sioux Chief does not limit the scope of its warranty.

Even if you use our products in combination with other companies’ pipe or fittings, we stand behind our warranty just the same. If we make it or sell it, we warrant it.

Please visit siouxchief.com/Warranty for more information on Sioux Chief’s world class, industry leading warranty.

Fitting Freedom | PEX Systems | PowerPEX | Sioux Chief

www.siouxchief.com

 

[mike93lx]

A can be used with crimp and cinch fittings as well and is more pliable than B. The allure of better flow is great, but the expansion tools are expensive (don't bother with the manual ones).

I used a pipe with crimps on a recent project and it worked well.

 

[Daveyclimber]

I installed Pex A. They require an Uponor style fitting as well as the collars and a special expander tool. I have yet to see any of this stocked at a local big box or chain hardware store. The flow will be better and is the reason I am using. Pex B is your more commonly available tube and you can use the cheaper crimp rings and compatible fittings or sharkbite fittings. Never seen Pex C. Pex A is more flexible and kink resistant. Many times using rolled pex vs sticks you can eliminate some fittings to possibly help with flow.

 

[mike93lx]

I installed Pex A. They require an Uponor style fitting as well as the collars and a special expander tool. I have yet to see any of this stocked at a local big box or chain hardware store. The flow will be better and is the reason I am using. Pex B is your more commonly available tube and you can use the cheaper crimp rings and compatible fittings or sharkbite fittings. Never seen Pex C. Pex A is more flexible and kink resistant. Many times using rolled pex vs sticks you can eliminate some fittings to possibly help with flow.

You can use regular fittings with A.

If you have any decent size project, ordering from a place like Supplyhouse is prudent.

 

[DGersic]

no idea on your question, but I have been told if you don't use the manufacturers compatible fittings you void any warranty on the pipe.

A few aisles over, Sioux Chief branded A and B type fittings, rings, etc. are available.

Uponer supposedly cuts their warranty from 25 years to 10 if you use somebody else’s fittings with their tube.

I’m ok with brand lock-in on this. Fittings are cheap enough that I’ll get them with the tube.

If I go A, I’ll buy the red power expander tool. Probably re-sell it after, not planning to do this job twice.

 

[rancherbill]

I understand your confusion. I did a search on pex-a and pex-b. I read so much BS in 5 minutes I was confused. My reading says type A is probably the one I would chose.

The only thing I know is that I just do not like shark bite connectors. I have helped my Son replace Poly-B in two houses (it's ****) and there were old Sharkbite repairs and I was not impressed with their quality. They were corroding.

I'd use nothing but crimp and check with the crimp measuring gauge.

 

[DGersic]

You can use regular fittings with A.

If you have any decent size project, ordering from a place like Supplyhouse is prudent.

It’s a fairly small project by plumbing standards. Ranch house, one bathroom. Water supply comes up from basement floor. Washer, utility sink, water softener, and water heater are all lined up right next to the water meter. Kitchen sink and hose bib are directly above the meter. The bathroom is 30‘ away.

Everything is in the basement. No ceilings involved. I’ll have to pull the bathroom vanity, but that’s easy except SWMBO keeps trying to telll me that we should replace it. Shower valve is accessible from the back of a closet with removable wall. Kitchen sink comes up through the floor. The only thing I can’t reach is the toilet supply, I’ll have to cut the wall for that one.

 

[Jbullfrog]

I work with a few plumbers, and they all use different Pex. I myself use the Uponor for my projects. I have 2 plumbers that use it and swear by it and 2 that use the crimp connectors. Myself, I judge what is sold at the home centers, versus the wholesale house as consumer versus professional. I do excavation for plumbers, and do a bit of repair and new construction myself.I have seen the colored pex crack and crimp bands may be of questionable origin at the box stores. My vote is Uponor and pickup extra fittings and rings before you start your project, or find a local plumber that uses it to get parts from.

 

[nicks78camaro]

My whole house was re-piped with pex b with the stainless cinch clamps (right before we bought it two years ago).

Knock on wood it's ok so far.

 

[Dagny]

wirsbo uponor type A more money but worth it.

 

[Renegade1LI]

Stop going to home depot, go to a local plumbing supply house & tell the salesman what you're doing. They will set you up with what you need & probably have all the fittings in stock. You will also find fittings that aren't stocked in a box store. Stick with pex A & either get the milwaukee or dewalt expander, the money you're saving doing it yourself pays for the tools.

 

[Dig Doug]

Totally agree w/ Renegade above…

make your list & go to to a couple different plumbing supply houses! Get some quotes!

you might be able to get a professional guy on the side to help you / pay cash from the supple store

you can rent the crimper tool if needed

stay out if depot for this project

 

[jack stand]

Crimping tools are cheap, about equal to a handful of sharkbite's.
I'm not familiar with A or B pex, when I did all the pex "work" (radiant and domestic) building my home 16 years ago. it was O2 barrier for the radiant and non O2 for the domestic. Most of the radiant was a compression fittings into a manifold, all of the domestic is crimp rings with the exception of one skarkbite for a line I wanted to be able to drain. No issues with either.
Skip the retal box stores and as suggested above,

https://www.supplyhouse.com/pex

is the best way to go.

 

[acer66]

 

[rlitman]

...I thought I understood that A is created so that it works with expansion fittings. B is created so that it works with crimp or clamp band fittings, and will not work with expansion. (I guess maybe a crimp ring would work on A with a B fitting, but that seems stupid to do except in emergencie.)...

PEX A is the only type of PEX compatible with expansion. Period. ALL other fittings (crimped compression sleeve aka press, crimped copper ring, stepless ear cinch clamp, ordinary compression fittings when used with the appropriate stiffener insert and push-on Shark Bite type fittings) are universally compatible with ALL types of plain PEX (PEX-Al-PEX is a different beast, and I'm only talking about ordinary PEX for drinking water and oxygen-barrier type PEX).

I've done cinch clamps on PEX A. It works just fine and costs a fraction of the expansion fittings. The biggest advantage to the expansion fittings is that they have larger cores that match the PEX ID and don't restrict flow any more than the PEX itself. They're also something you can expand and then push the pipe onto a fitting in a tight space where you couldn't fit a crimp tool.

 

[Sturgeon]

Agree with Renegade, they (wholesale house) more than likely have a expander tool you could rent. Not ever seen a bad Sharkbite fitting, always good quality and also approved for use underground. Good luck.

 

[DGersic]

PEX A is the only type of PEX compatible with expansion. Period. ALL other fittings (crimped compression sleeve aka press, crimped copper ring, stepless ear cinch clamp, ordinary compression fittings when used with the appropriate stiffener insert and push-on Shark Bite type fittings) are universally compatible with ALL types of plain PEX (PEX-Al-PEX is a different beast, and I'm only talking about ordinary PEX for drinking water and oxygen-barrier type PEX).

I've done cinch clamps on PEX A. It works just fine and costs a fraction of the expansion fittings. The biggest advantage to the expansion fittings is that they have larger cores that match the PEX ID and don't restrict flow any more than the PEX itself. They're also something you can expand and then push the pipe onto a fitting in a tight space where you couldn't fit a crimp tool.

Exactly my understanding, yes.

PEX A gets expansion. PEX B gets compression (crimp, etc.), not expansion. Either A or B can do SharkBites, but ignore those for now. Neither expansion nor compression is necessarily “better”, just different. Neither A nor B is “better”, just different systems. Both A and B have their minor advantages.

Yet this is clearly PEX B advertised as expansion.

That‘s where I did the WTF?! I don’t see how that’s a good idea. Sure, ok, somebody who didn’t know better maybe would do it. But this is a company, advertising and selling, with warranty, a product through a major retailer. That usually means that they know what they’re selling.

I read that and feel like I must be missing something.

Maybe they just assume that the cost of tools will keep the average DIY guy from doing expansion fittings?

 

[bwringer]

The plumbers I've seen use A in rolls with expansion tools. For a whole house project, it would be well worth buying the correct cutter and expander tools. It's easy enough to sell the tools afterwards, if you don't want to keep them, and you don't have to fart around with renting.

Each method has its ups and downs, but expansion to me seems a lot more foolproof, faster, and from what I've been told and seen, access is generally less of a problem; with a crimper you need to get a bulky tool in there at just the right angle.



I guess I don't see what's confusing about the fact that Sioux Chief has come up with a universal PEX that can be used with every kind of connection. I'd suspect it's a bit more expensive than A or B, but it could be a great problem-solver in certain situations, or good for carrying on a plumber's truck when you don't know what kind of system you'll be repairing or adding to that day.

 

[Dagny]

If the pipe has 1960 on it you can expand it.

 

[Dagny]

pex wants to return to it's original shape clamp it and it spends it's whole life trying to unclamp . expand it and it spends it's whole life trying to get tighter.

 

[u2slow]

Im using up my Pex A wirsbo with crimp rings and fittings. 10 years and no issues yet. Step up a size if you want more flow.

I can't buy expansion fitting supplies at the local hardware store.

 

[rlitman]

...Yet this is clearly PEX B advertised as expansion...

What makes you think it is B? It HAS to be A, just that it's being sold as compatible with anything B is compatible with (which is perfectly true).

 

[DaveMcLain]

I'm not totally sure how significant the ID of the fittings really is when it comes to flow in a PEX system. Each run is supposed to only have 2 fittings(one on each end) and it seems like they would flow as much as the typical fixture that's then attached. Sink, shower head etc.

I used a manifold setup when I plumbed the upstairs apartment in my barn. I used PEX-b with the copper crimp rings. No leaks or problems of any kind and it was easy to work with overall. I've read that kinks in PEX other that PEX-a can't be fixed so I was very careful when I ran the lines to make wide radius bends and to use the bend supports wherever I had to turn 90 degrees.

 

[Ashgrove]

Wirsbo A is my go to. Have used in our shop, outbuildings and several complete house projects. For occasional projects the manual expander is fine, usually available on ebay for $100 +/-

 

[Leaflessshadetree]

The Sioux Chief PowerPEX tube is type B, according to their web site.

Read it again
"PowerPEX® tubing is offered as Type-B tubing for ⅛" – 2" tubing and generally available in red, white and blue colors as straight lengths and coils. PowerPEX® Type-A tubing is available in for ½" – 2" in select coil lengths and straight lengths"

 

[reader2580]

I redid all of the supply plumbing for my two bathrooms that are one on top of the other. I used PEX-A fittings from Menards. I decided to get the PEX tubing itself from a local plumbing supply house, but the fittings are quite expensive at the plumbing supply. I used the brass fittings instead of the cheaper plastic fittings.

The people I talked to said a manual expander was not the right choice for my project since I had about two dozen expansion joints to do. I decided to buy the Milwaukee expansion tool along with Dewalt heads. Yes, the Dewalt heads work with Milwaukee.

 

[mike93lx]

I'm not totally sure how significant the ID of the fittings really is when it comes to flow in a PEX system. Each run is supposed to only have 2 fittings(one on each end) and it seems like they would flow as much as the typical fixture that's then attached. Sink, shower head etc.

I used a manifold setup when I plumbed the upstairs apartment in my barn. I used PEX-b with the copper crimp rings. No leaks or problems of any kind and it was easy to work with overall. I've read that kinks in PEX other that PEX-a can't be fixed so I was very careful when I ran the lines to make wide radius bends and to use the bend supports wherever I had to turn 90 degrees.

Only two fittings on a run is often impractical and all homeruns only works in new construction or gut remodels

 

[dcg9381]

I've used both. You can see the flow difference by looking at the inner diameter on the crimp vs expansion type fittings. Crimp fittings and tools are less expensive. I found that both were pretty intuitive to work with.

Remember that your flow restriction may not be on the PEX side if you've got hodge-podge type legacy plumbing. And the flow restriction at the fitting won't matter if things are sized properly.

 

[PoorUB]

Stop going to home depot, go to a local plumbing supply house & tell the salesman what you're doing. They will set you up with what you need & probably have all the fittings in stock. You will also find fittings that aren't stocked in a box store. Stick with pex A & either get the milwaukee or dewalt expander, the money you're saving doing it yourself pays for the tools.

You guys can find a wholesaler that will work with the general public?

I worked in HVAC for years and dealt with wholesalers and they will not sell to me directly! I can go in and buy on a buddies account.
Keep in mind these places know me by name and we chit chat about family and friends while I am there.

 

[Renegade1LI]

You guys can find a wholesaler that will work with the general public?

I worked in HVAC for years and dealt with wholesalers and they will not sell to me directly! I can go in and buy on a buddies account.
Keep in mind these places know me by name and we chit chat about family and friends while I am there.

Most supply houses here will sell direct, Bruce supply, Ferguson, Blackman, may not get the same price though.

 

[mike93lx]

Most supply houses here will sell direct, Bruce supply, Ferguson, Blackman, may not get the same price though.

I've bough from Ferguson as a plebe before.

I tend to go for Supplyhouse for special stuff or large quantities, Home depot for small stuff that I need now. Hard to argue with their hours, plus I have 4 within 15 minutes

 

[Renegade1LI]

I've bough from Ferguson as a plebe before.

I tend to go for Supplyhouse for special stuff or large quantities, Home depot for small stuff that I need now. Hard to argue with their hours, plus I have 4 within 15 minutes

What my point was, if the op went to a local supply house they would help set him up. I've seen homeowners go in with a sketch and the salesman would put together a list for them. Once he gets what he needs then fill in the little stuff at hd or lowes. I like that most suppliers have the right fitting, don't need to make something upand usually carry domestic.

 

[mike93lx]

What my point was, if the op went to a local supply house they would help set him up. I've seen homeowners go in with a sketch and the salesman would put together a list for them. Once he gets what he needs then fill in the little stuff at hd or lowes. I like that most suppliers have the right fitting, don't need to make something upand usually carry domestic.

No arguments there

 

[dcg9381]

You guys can find a wholesaler that will work with the general public?

I worked in HVAC for years and dealt with wholesalers and they will not sell to me directly! I can go in and buy on a buddies account.
Keep in mind these places know me by name and we chit chat about family and friends while I am there.

For what? I used all brass. Generic fittings you can get on Amazon. The stuff that I ordered from supply houses was generally stuff like Moen valves. The uponor (expansion) fittings - less available at local hardware stores (for sure). But it like anything else - sooner or later you're going to end up with own stash of hardware if you do much of this stuff.

 

[Jackfre]

Having been in the business for a while I remember the polybutylene disaster. In the Rep side of the business I saw lines like Heat-way and others products give out. PexA is the best pex. I use the Uponor Pex A with their expansion rings. I have confidence in it. Buy the M10 Milwaukee expander for the install. Sell it after the job. It makes it so much easier to do the job. Some wholesalers won’t sell. Some will. Go into your local and don’t ask a counter man. Ask to speak with the manger and explain it is for your own home and you are doing the work yourself, by necessity. Keep it tight with them and don’t try to return a bunch of ****. Build that relationship and youy can do business with them going forward.

 

[PoorUB]

For what? I used all brass. Generic fittings you can get on Amazon. The stuff that I ordered from supply houses was generally stuff like Moen valves. The uponor (expansion) fittings - less available at local hardware stores (for sure). But it like anything else - sooner or later you're going to end up with own stash of hardware if you do much of this stuff.

You missed the comment I was responding too.

I know you can buy this stuff any where. That is not what my post was about.

 

[bwringer]

The Sioux Chief PowerPEX tube is type B, according to their web site.

Read it again
"PowerPEX® tubing is offered as Type-B tubing for ⅛" – 2" tubing and generally available in red, white and blue colors as straight lengths and coils. PowerPEX® Type-A tubing is available in for ½" – 2" in select coil lengths and straight lengths"

That directly contradicts what's on the sign in the first post:

I dunno WTF is going on here.

 

[rlitman]

... PexA is the best pex...

Best how? It may be the most flexible, but even when people here tell you that you get less flow restriction because of the more open fittings, other sources will tell you that PEX-A has greater wall thickness, so poorer flow characteristics overall. PEX-A also is known to have a lasting chemical smell, and due to less cross-linking than PEX-B has a softer surface that's more prone to damage. PEX-A is also more susceptible to chlorine damage than PEX-B.

I for one am just fine with choosing PEX-B for my home's water. I did however use PEX-A for a hydronic snow melting zone, because the more flexible PEX-A is easier to double around in the limited space of a masonry stair tread.