Is converting a pipe-framed barn to a shop cost-effective?

[timsch]

I've got a barn that was once an auto shop many decades ago. It is framed with mainly 2 - 2-1/2" pipe, which for the most part in good condition, other than the lengths that were along the ground. At one time this rested on cement blocks, but those have sunk and the ground risen to have rusted away alot of the lower horizontal sections. There is a working overhead door. I'd also like to have access doors on the other end.

I'd like to pour a cement slab under it and have it reskinned (fully enclosed) and insulated or solar blocked, at least on the ceiling. Animals will be moved out and it will become a shop again.

What's your suggestion for the most cost effective way to do this? I've looked for pipe clamps to connect perlins, but didn't find too many options.

 

[Leaflessshadetree]

If you are thinking about reskinning and pouring a cement/floor (Floating with thickened edge I assume) then insulating, framing in new doors, wiring etc. All you are keeping is the pipe frame which sounds like it needs significant repairs. I'd expect the cost of working around it will exceed the cost of tearing it down and replacing and you will end up with a better building.

Honestly if you have the space I'd repair that one and build another.

 

[kwb]

A lot depends on what you want in the end.

If you want to keep it simple then it really could be as simple as clearing out, marking a level line and pouring a slab so you have a flat hard surface to work on. The reality is there is no foundation here so it is all just waiting to be blown away if you are in a high wind prone area.

If you want full depth finished walls, insulation, and general finishes rivaling those in a house then you are going to be better off starting over.

If it was me - I would be looking at if that is the only site for garage or if that might just be a great place to keep a mower, a utility trailer, and other **** that you really don't want in a shop but also dont want out in the weather.

 

[racecougar]

Agreed with those above me. If you actually go through the cost and labor to pour a foundation, floor, skin, insulate, and sheet it, you'll kick yourself for bothering to use the pipe frame in the first place. Keep that as an outbuilding and start fresh on your shop.

 

[timsch]

I do want to keep it simple. Not trying to rival a house finish. Part of the motivation to transform this one is that if I build a separate building, I get taxed for a new structure, which where I am are bad enough. I really just want to enclose it to keep the animals & dust out, have a solid floor, and good electrical service, and not be too hot in the summer around here.

 

[Zeke]

Then for some good solid advice you should take more pics of the lower parts.

Do you weld? You do now.

 

[dougf]

Reading and mostly understanding your intent for this structure, but not really knowing finances, this is what I would do (disclaimer: I am an idiot)...

I would get some angle iron and frame some door and window openings with a welder, poor the slab, and get everything spray foamed which will seal everything and add rigidity to the building and call it done. If later down the road the bottom of some pipes rust out, you can easily repair this with your welder. Probably wont look the best but this is what I would do.

 

[Zeke]

I wonder why a lot of people don't just lay down asphalt for a general purpose shop? Depending on the use, I'd think about it. Some old machine shops were nothing but dirt. Oily dirt, but dirt.

 

[iamhomeless]

If the size of the building works, then using an existing shell might not perk the tax man's eyebrows as much as a new building.

Even if the total costs of the refurb end up being the same or slightly more than a new build, I think I would rather put my money into materials than into the county coffers.

 

[u2slow]

I would only do enough to repair/enclose what's there to continue unheated & uninsulated, but otherwise be secure.

Hard floor surface.... what have you got money for? Maybe it can be repurposed if/when the building goes away.

 

[crguy]

IMO, that's never going to be close to a decent shop to work in. I'd be building a new insulated, heated/cooled shop to work in.

 

[timsch]

Yes, I weld and plan on doing plenty of it here. Money's not a big issue, but I'm not spending too much given the limitations already mentioned. I should be able to do this on the cheap in some ways. I've got plenty of old metal roofing from a neighbors teardown. I don't much care what the walls look like, but I'd put some money into improving the roof which does have a couple of leaks and adding some radiant barrier, and want a good slab.

Existing shell size is pretty decent. Probably close to 20 x 40'.

Never heard of using asphalt for this, but that would soak up alot of radiant heat and make it more miserable in the summer.

 

[Zeke]

Asphalt is not the best idea unless the budget is real tight. But it doesn't absorb radiant heat when covered by a shielded roof anymore than concrete does. Big doors wide open, I guess that could be the case.

 

[racecougar]

If you're doing any automotive work on jackstands, you're not going to want asphalt.

 

[kwb]

I get not wanting the tax man to hit you for improvements but that is kind of a cutting off your nose to spite your face thing to do.

If you want nice things.... there is a cost. If you can afford it then just do a proper build.

There is no shame in being broke and trying to make a bit of improvement. In that case in my mind it is more about investing in improvements that will help set you up to make a bit of extra income/better the property so it can be sold for more money.

If bent on saving this thing -
Jack it up and put a Level perimeter of angle iron (3x3x1/4) around the base.
Drill it for anchor bolts.
Setup formwork even to bottom of the angle iron
Pour a thickend edge floor up to the angle
Let concrete cure. Tighten the anchor bolts.

This is going to take about 30yds of concrete. Depending on your connections and abilities to finish that size of floor you are going to spend a minimum of $5k and probably more like $10K. This is where I get confused - spending that kind of money and still being left with tin shack of questionable construction techniques... I don't get it.

 

[Zeke]

If you're doing any automotive work on jackstands, you're not going to want asphalt.

That's a generality. Stands can be placed on wood. Flat bottom stands are available. Asphalt will carry a lot of weight w/o deforming, just not when it's hot. No. it's not ideal, hard to sweep and doesn't do well with spills, especially petroleum.

I said I'd consider it and I'll stand by that statement.

 

[racecougar]

That's a generality. Stands can be placed on wood. Flat bottom stands are available. Asphalt will carry a lot of weight w/o deforming, just not when it's hot. No. it's not ideal, hard to sweep and doesn't do well with spills, especially petroleum.

I said I'd consider it and I'll stand by that statement.

Yes, there are workarounds. Maybe it fits this build, but I sure don't get it.

 

[timsch]

I get not wanting the tax man to hit you for improvements but that is kind of a cutting off your nose to spite your face thing to do.

If you want nice things.... there is a cost. If you can afford it then just do a proper build.

There is no shame in being broke and trying to make a bit of improvement. In that case in my mind it is more about investing in improvements that will help set you up to make a bit of extra income/better the property so it can be sold for more money.

If bent on saving this thing -
Jack it up and put a Level perimeter of angle iron (3x3x1/4) around the base.
Drill it for anchor bolts.
Setup formwork even to bottom of the angle iron
Pour a thickend edge floor up to the angle
Let concrete cure. Tighten the anchor bolts.

This is going to take about 30yds of concrete. Depending on your connections and abilities to finish that size of floor you are going to spend a minimum of $5k and probably more like $10K. This is where I get confused - spending that kind of money and still being left with tin shack of questionable construction techniques... I don't get it.

My connections are pretty good. $5K sounds like a bargain, and $10K I could probably stomach. How much would a new 20 x 40' building complete run?

Another thing I forgot to add is that being in a 100 year flood plain, I'd have to add a retention pond to my property to compensate for the new building.

Don't get me wrong, I would love a new shop, but that's a big pill to swallow in my mind, and I'm not talking just the initial cost.

 

[dougf]

I understand it completely, but racecougar has some very, very good points. Not to turn this on myself, but I tried to do things on the cheap. and i'm ending up not happy. Cheap carport style building, 20x30 depth is killing me, finishing is a nightmare, looks like ***, etc... the list goes on.

There's a lot to be said for 'just do it right the first time' but things are so expensive and the finances just might not ever pan out for the man to have a nice shop (60k+) that spending 10-15k ish to get a concrete floor and spray foamed and sealed building might just be doable and give him a nice dry place to work for the next 20 years. Many would take that for space for granted while many would dream of having it. perspective I guess...

 

[Youngandfree]

I'd tear it down, do your slab, and rebuild a new frame with the old tin so it's the same size and looks the same. Same size as what's on your tax plats.

 

[kwb]

My connections are pretty good. $5K sounds like a bargain, and $10K I could probably stomach. How much would a new 20 x 40' building complete run?

Another thing I forgot to add is that being in a 100 year flood plain, I'd have to add a retention pond to my property to compensate for the new building.

Don't get me wrong, I would love a new shop, but that's a big pill to swallow in my mind, and I'm not talking just the initial cost.

It is going to cost more, no doubt but you are going to spend a lot on the tin shack and not have any value for the work.

Seems like the thing to do is pour the floor and then build a real building inside of the shack and then strip away the scrap metal. If you work fast you can minimize opportunity for anyone to notice.

I knew a contractor that told me "nothing draws attention like a fresh sheet of plywood." He wasn't above doing some fly by night stuff to avoid taxes, insurance, etc... He said "You can build a wall, put windows in and tar paper it before you stand it up. If you don't waste time you can stand walls up and have a roof up to look like it is a re-side and re-roof within a day."

 

[CraigStu]

I like kwb's idea in post #15.
'If bent on saving this thing -
Jack it up and put a Level perimeter of angle iron (3x3x1/4) around the base.
Drill it for anchor bolts.
Setup formwork even to bottom of the angle iron
Pour a thickend edge floor up to the angle
Let concrete cure. Tighten the anchor bolts.'

If done correctly you end up w/ a slab floor that can be used for nearly anything in the future. Having a concrete floor will make all the difference. At that point you can spend some $ and time fixing the roof and walls. Depending how you feel about the building then, can determine how much your throw at it to make it nicer. You have plenty of sheet metal so not too expensive to get the leaks fixed and enclose the rest of it. Don't insulate it for now because you can't pull that out and re-use later. Bring in an electric sub panel and run romex around by wire tying it to the horizontal pipes. You could also run it in surface mount conduit if you want. But think about how you can remove it and re-use it if you decide to go another way later. At this point you have a great floor, and an enclosed leak free building w/ some electrical. That is a huge improvement over it's current state so work in it 6 months to a year and see how it works out.
Then look at options. More taxes are one thing but I think the biggy for you is the 100yr flood plain. Those restrictions can be a real b-tch to work with and make staying the same size and location by far the easiest path.
kwb -Seems like the thing to do is pour the floor and then build a real building inside of the shack and then strip away the scrap metal. If you work fast you can minimize opportunity for anyone to notice.
youngandfree - I'd tear it down, do your slab, and rebuild a new frame with the old tin so it's the same size and looks the same. Same size as what's on your tax plats.
iamhomeless - Even if the total costs of the refurb end up being the same or slightly more than a new build, I think I would rather put my money into materials than into the county coffers.

 

[nadogail]

The one major thing I missed is the location of the project.

There are 3 things that will mold any advice I would give you. They are Location, Location, and finally LOCATION.

What works in Whoville probably won’t fly in Metropopulus.

 

[Norcal]

I wonder why a lot of people don't just lay down asphalt for a general purpose shop? Depending on the use, I'd think about it. Some old machine shops were nothing but dirt. Oily dirt, but dirt.

From what I have heard asphalt is expensive, not that concrete is cheap but I would rather have concrete, & anything that has a lot of concentrated weight on a small base is going to sink in to the asphalt.

 

[kbs2244]

there are shops and then there are shops
what kind of work are you going to be doing
general auto service needs are different than high end wood working

 

[Hank11]

If those metal trusses are really good, think about this:

Hand dig a footing just inside the old walls and tight against them. Use rebar and enough footing for the climate where you live. Build wooden stud walls on the new footings up to the trusses. Brace the stud walls well and then remove old walls and cover new ones as desired. Fix the roof so it does not leak. Pour a slab between the footings. Your imagination can take it from there.