that's cause the engineers figgered out how to manufacture pens that don't leak, so they didn't need to ask to be issued nomo pocket protectors from supply, which then the MBA beancounters discovered they was saving money on employee supplies
Why 6pt and not 12pt?
- Thread starter _brian_
- Start date
and Vice Grip Garage, along with baling wire, duct tape, and spit
KnurledNut
Well-known member
Its comical some here think auto engineers care about rust...
jrsavoie
Well-known member
Or accessibility or anything else.
There's no practicality in design anymore.
Not since the V8 Monza
Handyandy23
Well-known member
This is very true - the 6 point heads aren't any kind of design limitation, so where's the incentive to change?
You see 12 point on things like cylinder head studs that have a very high torque, and they usually have a smaller head size to fit into the design. So maybe this is a case where if you're going to 100+ ft lbs and you want to cram a 12-14mm head on a bolt instead of a 17-19mm, the design calls for 12 point instead.
Which brings us to what others have already touched on - fastener types are set by what makes things easier for manufacturers, not about how it affects people several years down the road. Torx heads are more and more popular because they don't cam out as easily, and the heads can usually be smaller than a traditional bolt head and achieve the same torque. That's for ease of manufacturing and reducing weight, not to make the customer's life any easier.
Handyandy23
Well-known member
The practicality is all based around cramming more into a smaller, lighter package. And how practical it is to manufacture on an assembly line.
What most people here call "practical design", i.e. how can you service the part later on, is near the bottom of the list.
HPRifleman
Member Emeritus
If, on the next product I design, I wanted to use a brand new fastener that my employer would have to purchase and stock I would have to do a very good job to justify such an addition. Our purchasing has goals to limit inventory dollars sitting on the shelf. Adding a 12-point fastener to our stock doesn't contribute to that.
I focused on the "unskiled user" portion. If I can remove a rusted 6 pt, why is a rusted 12pt worse? The "bolt removers" I have will work on both 6 and 12 point, and I might even state that on a 12 point, the contact areas would actually have more secure contact on the 12 point. Personally, I have never encountered a fastener I could not remove; however, breaking a fastener is what happens.
Yep. I mentioned this too. These bolts are exposed to salt and elements just the same, never issues. I live on the upper side of the rust belt, so rust is a given for me. If we can use a better fastener, and the issues stated are somewhat hypothetical, why do we not look into it? I understand others have stated cost is an issue.
I disagree with the "solves a problem that doesn't exist". There was no "problem" with the horse and buggy, it was an improvement. Each and every thing we have and do can be improved on, and each of those improvements advances us. If you forced me to use slotted screws to build a deck, I would charge twice the cost. Cross point made things better. From there, we improve again with Robertson and Torx.
finn
Well-known member
All automobile manufacturers have corrosion resistance standards and qualifications that include things like passing salt bath tests.
You may think that the standards are inadequate in some instances, but to think they don’t exist it’s is naive, at best.
jrsavoie
Well-known member
They don't even take little things like changing the battery or and light bulbs into consideration.
By gum, there ought to be a law that any bulb has to be changeable in 15 minutes or less.
KnurledNut
Well-known member
whateg01
Well-known member
Providing design feedback from the service end of things, I fought this battle constantly. Every once in awhile I would win a battle but I always lost the war.
whateg01
Well-known member
Designed in service revenue. Don't expect it to get better any time soon. With right to repair they will continue to make it harder to perform any service work so you don't have to take it back to the dealer but (some of) you will.
finn
Well-known member
The manufacturer who designs and produces something rarely profits from service revenue. That’s all dealer revenue.
After warranty Parts.. yes, but service (labor) all goes to the servicing dealer.
Handyandy23
Well-known member
Most of the newest designs are LED lights so there's no bulbs to even replace! But light bulbs in the past 10-15 years are a perfect example of cramming things into a tight space, and aftermarket repair being secondary.
Just to clarify, I'm not disputing that the 12pt is "better" in that it offers an advantage. I'm saying that advantage is in many cases superfluous.
E.g. If a fastener achieves the necessary torque and can still be easily removed if you use a 6pt head, then making it a 12pt for the torque advantage is an improvement you don't actually experience.
In the horse and buggy example, it would be like switching to a car where the speed limit is 2mph. It's all well and good that the car can go faster, but if you're not allowed to step on the gas...
(I'm ignoring the other benefits of the automobile for simplicity's sake).
finn
Well-known member
Nobody uses “torque “ for critical fasteners in an assembly plant any more. The critical joints are some method of torque to yield to get maximum, or controlled joint load, using automation. That’s where the fasteners other than six point fasteners shine. Hex fasteners are, to my knowledge, still used mostly for fastening non critical joints, like hanging fenders and the like.
Nobody uses stove bolts or square nuts anymore either. Time and progress passed them by.
23ford
Well-known member
Seen more cracked 12 sockets than 6 point
dr_clyde
Well-known member
Hard to use an open end wrench on a 12 point.
TailGunner3000
Well-known member
Bingo. What's missing in this thread is the fact that not every fastener can be accessed over the top with a boxed wrench or socket. Sometimes an open end or adjustable wrench is needed.
Also, the longer flat sides of a 6 point fastener will help mitigate the lack of tight tolerances between wrench and fastener.
It seems the consensus is that rust is the primary user focused reason to not use a 12 point, and cost being the main reason on the manufacturer side. I must admit I did not consider cost on the manufacturer side. I will have to research a bit on the cost of a 6 point, 12 point, external torx, etc bolts and look into that.
In reference to rust, I can only speak to my own experience and listen to others that speak from experience. I live in Wisconsin, so I experience winter, salt and expect rust on every car I see. The most common issue I run into is the bolt and/or nut being rusted together, rusted into a bushing, etc. In those cases, without care, the bolt heads and/or nut are prone to rounding off with the force needed to attempt removal. I have never personally experienced issues with a 12 point bolt having more issues with rust compared to a 6 point, and the same for external torx. However, I must state that my experience with 12 point and external torx fasteners is FAR less than 6 point, so my experience there is not substantial enough to have meaning.
I posted in other threads on torx and etorx, and my opinion there is that I prefer them due to the extra bite (fastener to socket) I get with them. I believe the same to be true with a 12 point, but my experience is lesser with them. As some have pointed out here, it is true that there are certain tools that cannot be used with a 12 point and an external torx. However, if we are talking about rust, I sure will not be using an adjustable wrench on my fasteners anyway. I do not recall ever using an adjustable wrench on a vehicle anyway. When I have a problem bolt, I pound on a 12 point socket, use a spline drive, try a bolt extractor, etc. When I was younger I used a vice-grip a lot, but in recent years I have found better alternatives that do not cause more damage to the fastener.
I have the opinion, assumption, based on my experience that if the rust here is bad enough to destroy the points on a 12 point fastener, the 6 point will be the same, resulting in a round fastener. However, the 12 point will have more to bite onto, twice the rounded off points. I would be interested to see and hear others experience. I agree that things on paper and hypotheticals are not relevant since we live in reality and not on paper. I am also well aware that other areas experience more rust than where I am. However as some other pointed out with 12 point drive shaft fasteners, I have never experienced issues with 12 point fasteners.
In reference to rust, I can only speak to my own experience and listen to others that speak from experience. I live in Wisconsin, so I experience winter, salt and expect rust on every car I see. The most common issue I run into is the bolt and/or nut being rusted together, rusted into a bushing, etc. In those cases, without care, the bolt heads and/or nut are prone to rounding off with the force needed to attempt removal. I have never personally experienced issues with a 12 point bolt having more issues with rust compared to a 6 point, and the same for external torx. However, I must state that my experience with 12 point and external torx fasteners is FAR less than 6 point, so my experience there is not substantial enough to have meaning.
I posted in other threads on torx and etorx, and my opinion there is that I prefer them due to the extra bite (fastener to socket) I get with them. I believe the same to be true with a 12 point, but my experience is lesser with them. As some have pointed out here, it is true that there are certain tools that cannot be used with a 12 point and an external torx. However, if we are talking about rust, I sure will not be using an adjustable wrench on my fasteners anyway. I do not recall ever using an adjustable wrench on a vehicle anyway. When I have a problem bolt, I pound on a 12 point socket, use a spline drive, try a bolt extractor, etc. When I was younger I used a vice-grip a lot, but in recent years I have found better alternatives that do not cause more damage to the fastener.
I have the opinion, assumption, based on my experience that if the rust here is bad enough to destroy the points on a 12 point fastener, the 6 point will be the same, resulting in a round fastener. However, the 12 point will have more to bite onto, twice the rounded off points. I would be interested to see and hear others experience. I agree that things on paper and hypotheticals are not relevant since we live in reality and not on paper. I am also well aware that other areas experience more rust than where I am. However as some other pointed out with 12 point drive shaft fasteners, I have never experienced issues with 12 point fasteners.
finn
Well-known member
Don’t forget the oxy acetylene torch. If the fasteners don’t come out in a couple of minutes, they get the flame treatment.
That’s never failed for me.
Lt CHEG
Well-known member
Don’t forget the inability to use an open end wrench on a 12 point fastener. There are definitely some places where a socket or closed end of a combination wrench won’t fit on a fastener. I think the cost of designing out those type scenarios would be astronomically expensive if even possible. Plus if you’re still going to have to have 6 point fasteners for those scenarios, it’s probably easier and less expensive to just keep 6 point fasteners as the standard. For this reason and all the others listed I really don’t see much benefit to widespread use of 12 point fasteners.
speed bump
Well-known member
12 pt fasteners give you a the same holding power with approximately an 1/8-1/4" more clearance. A 1/2 inch 12 pt bolt has a 1/2 inch head and a 3/4 inch flange and requires no clearance around it. A 6 pt 1/2 inch bolt head takes approximately 1 inch diameter to install and remove. In a tight situation (IE a driveshaft cap bolt) you gain some clearance.
Everyone complaining about not worrying about how easy maintenance is on a car has to remember. The first thing they had to figure out is how to make it work in the first place, then value engineer it so it hits the price point they have to hit, then figure out how to assemble thousands of complex pieces of equipment a day, and after you finish out all of that in a short period of time give it to a group of people who figure out the repair procedures. If it was as easy as everyone likes to claim it was they generally would have done it
Everyone complaining about not worrying about how easy maintenance is on a car has to remember. The first thing they had to figure out is how to make it work in the first place, then value engineer it so it hits the price point they have to hit, then figure out how to assemble thousands of complex pieces of equipment a day, and after you finish out all of that in a short period of time give it to a group of people who figure out the repair procedures. If it was as easy as everyone likes to claim it was they generally would have done it
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
And I'll never understand why !
82355
Well-known member
Ole Slewfoot
Well-known member
Ever try to put an end wrench on a 12 point?
finn
Well-known member
I’m sitting here struggling while trying to remember the last time I actually used an open end wrench. I know I use them occasionally, but it’s increasingly rare.Ever try to put an end wrench on a 12 point?
Hex nuts just aren’t used much anymore on goods with automated assembly, and if they are used, a box wrench works if a socket doesn’t fit.
gtae07
Well-known member
And even in cases where they do benefit from service revenue... the attitude is always "profits/savings now outweighs profits/savings later". Seen it over and over and over with aircraft; engineering says says to make a change (or not make one, depending) because it will improve service life or maintainability or save on warranty costs, but it gets vetoed by management because all they care about is weight savings or cost savings in production.
It's also rare for engineers to be able to see the "big picture" because of data restrictions etc. The team designing the engine almost certainly doesn't get to see the rest of the car, and the team designing the car probably sees just an empty box labeled "engine: keep out".
rsanter
Well-known member
Clearance or torque requirement
rancherbill
Well-known member
There are lots of existing alternative like torx, etorx etc
Tiny Jackson
Well-known member
To OP: Why not 6 AND 12PT?
VolvoRyan
Well-known member
JRC3
Well-known member
Yep, you just gotta use a 12pt adjustable wrench.You ever try to use an adjustable wrench on a 12 point fastener?
JRC3
Well-known member
delete
Junkdrawer Dog
Well-known member
My grandpa's era. Born 1891, died 1964. Plowed with a mule. Pulled a wagon with a team of horses. Used a pipe wrench on EVERYTHING cos that's all he had!
Yes there are. I like to learn the pros and cons of each. To me, it would make sense to not have numerous fastener types and use what works best. However, I am also not seeing that it might not be as easy as selecting a handful of fastener types, as each seems to offer something unique.
Even with that, we still have people using sizes like 4.5 and 5.5mm.... because using a 4, 5, or 6mm would be that bad? Seems like we just make new fastener types and sizes far too often. I get that technology has advanced, but that should not mean that we need to complicate things so much. Not just even buying more sets of tools, but there are times where it is hard to identify a fastener due to low visibility or simply looking to close to another type.
Absolutely! Once the cost factor was mentioned, this answered a factor as to why have 6 point. Using square fasteners as example, my question was more on why is 6 not discontinued in favor of 12. Some good points were mentioned. My query was more centered on if 12 point is better, why even use 6 point? I wonder the same on flat head vs cross point, but is flat head still used for anything? There might be solid reasons, but that is off topic. Robertson vs Philips for drywall. Philips vs JPS equiv for cross point.... there is just a lot of old styles that refuse to go away.
fatfillup
Well-known member
I know more 12 point fasteners are being used because I get asked for 12 point sockets on a regular basis where 10 year ago it was very rare. Trying to find 12 point impact sockets on the used market to resell is almost impossible