Liftmaster 8500 - double track low front clearance

[quakerj]

I had a 16'W x 10'H garage door installed in my 30x50 red iron building. Installer had to use a double track low front clearance kit due to the rafter at the front of the building not giving enough clearance for the torsion shaft/drum assembly.

I have enough clearance above the shaft/drum that a jackshaft / wall mounted operator will fit cleanly. But the Liftmaster 8500 documentation says it will not work with a double track / low clearance door. The cable off the drum comes out on the inside of the building, not outside as would be typical for most doors. So I think the shaft spins in reverse direction for open/close. Is this a deal breaker for wall mounted / jackshaft type opener?

If so, can someone recommend a good overhead opener (would really prefer not to go this route) that would be durable and long lasting, opening a 16x10 door? Any input/suggestions would be most appreciated!

 

[racecougar]

Liftmaster has good customer service in my experience. Have you asked them if there is any means of making there operator work in your situation?

 

[jstroede]

I had a 16'W x 10'H garage door installed in my 30x50 red iron building. Installer had to use a double track low front clearance kit due to the rafter at the front of the building not giving enough clearance for the torsion shaft/drum assembly.

I have enough clearance above the shaft/drum that a jackshaft / wall mounted operator will fit cleanly. But the Liftmaster 8500 documentation says it will not work with a double track / low clearance door. The cable off the drum comes out on the inside of the building, not outside as would be typical for most doors. So I think the shaft spins in reverse direction for open/close. Is this a deal breaker for wall mounted / jackshaft type opener?

If so, can someone recommend a good overhead opener (would really prefer not to go this route) that would be durable and long lasting, opening a 16x10 door? Any input/suggestions would be most appreciated!

Yes, that is why they say the 8500 is not compatible with your setup. The shaft spins the wrong way. Yes, I know some people have made them work halfway by mounting them upside down off the ceiling and such, but I highly suggest against it. LHR doors have their own operational issues that trolley openers help to overcome.

John

 

[quakerj]

Yes, that is why they say the 8500 is not compatible with your setup. The shaft spins the wrong way. Yes, I know some people have made them work halfway by mounting them upside down off the ceiling and such, but I highly suggest against it. LHR doors have their own operational issues that trolley openers help to overcome.

John

I feel like the garage door company was just being lazy. If they'd have just installed the torsion bar 1-1/2" out further (toward inside of building) there would have been no need for low clearance track (it wasn't the door track that was the issue, just the torsion bar) and I'd have more than 2' of headroom above the bar. I could have accomplished that by simply mounting a 2x4 block in between the torsion bar and column, and the cable could then spin off the right direction at a completely vertical angle and there'd be zero issues with a jackshaft/side opener.

Ugh. I really don't like the idea of a traditional opener and all that track ****. It'd have to hang down off the ceiling more than two feet.

I guess I'm going to have to investigate whether or not adapting an 8500 to reverse rotation is possible in my situation. Maybe calling the garage door company and asking what in the hell they were thinking should be my first step.

 

[jstroede]

I feel like the garage door company was just being lazy. If they'd have just installed the torsion bar 1-1/2" out further (toward inside of building) there would have been no need for low clearance track (it wasn't the door track that was the issue, just the torsion bar) and I'd have more than 2' of headroom above the bar. I could have accomplished that by simply mounting a 2x4 block in between the torsion bar and column, and the cable could then spin off the right direction at a completely vertical angle and there'd be zero issues with a jackshaft/side opener.

Ugh. I really don't like the idea of a traditional opener and all that track ****. It'd have to hang down off the ceiling more than two feet.

I guess I'm going to have to investigate whether or not adapting an 8500 to reverse rotation is possible in my situation. Maybe calling the garage door company and asking what in the hell they were thinking should be my first step.

Do you have pictures? I am not sure I understand what you are describing. You can't just move the torsion bar like back like that. The door will hit the drums without doing a bunch of other things.

If you have pictures, I might be able to recommend an alternate solution.

 

[quakerj]

Do you have pictures? I am not sure I understand what you are describing. You can't just move the torsion bar like back like that. The door will hit the drums without doing a bunch of other things.

If you have pictures, I might be able to recommend an alternate solution.

Many thanks for your help, I'm new to garage doors but not opposed to learning. I've attached some pictures. What is perplexing is I've been in a lot of similar steel frame buildings where the garage door height has the same proportion to eave height as mine (and same roof pitch) yet they have side openers. I'd certainly be interested if there was any way I could make a jackshaft/side opener work.

FWIW, I measured from top of shaft (at each side) to bottom of the rafter and I have about 3-3/4". Most every side mount opener I've researched will physically fit.

 

[jstroede]

The reason you have the low headroom track is that with standard 15" radius track, your center line of shaft would be like another 6-8" higher. The vertical tracks on LHR doors are shorter, and the top section basically moves back instead of up. You can't just move the torsion bar out toward the center of the building either. The cable would rub on everything. The cable on a standard lift configuration must be close to the wall. There wasn't really any laziness to it I would say. If this was a necessity, the door probably should have been 9'6" tall and it probably could have been done pretty easily.

Hanging an opener two ft down is no problem. I would put a Liftmaster ATSW on it and call it a day.

 

[jstroede]

Also all of this should have been spelled out when you ordered the building. The garage door installer didn't show up and go, oh **** I am going to install LHR on this door. It was ordered this way, at a significant additional cost I may add.

 

[quakerj]

Also all of this should have been spelled out when you ordered the building. The garage door installer didn't show up and go, oh **** I am going to install LHR on this door. It was ordered this way, at a significant additional cost I may add.

The LHR option added $160. I got the original quote based on information I gave (my mistaken belief that I had > 15" clearance). This company comes out to measure before they'll order anything; when they did their measuring that's when they informed me installation would require LHR track & also that door needed to be 16'2" wide instead of 16' even. Those changes increased the price $160. I didn't realize that would prevent the installation of a side opener.

I think they did a good job, door is extremely smooth and quiet, plus it seals well. I chalk this up to my own ignorance, this being my first rodeo and all.

 

[quakerj]

I would put a Liftmaster ATSW on it and call it a day.

I looked that opener up and it appears chain driven, or do they come in different configurations? Every chain driven opener I've had, I despised. The one I have in my attached garage will wake everyone in the house up. I'd much prefer a shaft driven or belt style opener if such a thing is available for this type of door.

 

[jmdirk]

Also all of this should have been spelled out when you ordered the building. The garage door installer didn't show up and go, oh **** I am going to install LHR on this door. It was ordered this way, at a significant additional cost I may add.

Sounds like it's the same as my scenario. Same style building too. Not really 'red iron' but cold formed steel channel.

Seems like the building vendor spec the rough opening, but won't provide the doors. Seems to be a fairly common practice around here. A good vendor might warn you that you may have clearance issues based on your requested door size and positioning. Mine certainly didn't. I think in my case, even a LHR double track wouldn't have helped. On the one door I had to lower the whole horizontal track by a couple inches. And even then I still had issues with the door hitting part of the framing. If the building vendor had said, "There's a framing member really close to your door, you should consider moving it just a few inches," all would have been good.

I was able to get around my problem with a set of quick turn hinges at the top. Which gave me just enough clearance. That doesn't seem like an option in this case though.

 

[HogDude]

Sorry to hear about the door opener issue. I do really appreciate the feedback from other members. They provide great perspective and insight on options. FWIW, that is a really nice building you have.

 

[jstroede]

I looked that opener up and it appears chain driven, or do they come in different configurations? Every chain driven opener I've had, I despised. The one I have in my attached garage will wake everyone in the house up. I'd much prefer a shaft driven or belt style opener if such a thing is available for this type of door.

No, it is chain driven. You have a commercial door. I recommend a commercial opener. You can get a residential liftmaster with a 10' belt rail, but I don't like them for bigger doors like you have. They weren't designed for that, so that's why I didn't recommend it. In fact, I would personally go for a Liftmaster MT series opener. You aren't in a basement garage with rooms above it. A properly installed chain drive is more than adequate and either of those two openers should last forever.

 

[quakerj]

Sorry to hear about the door opener issue. I do really appreciate the feedback from other members. They provide great perspective and insight on options. FWIW, that is a really nice building you have.

Thanks for the feedback on the building. Red iron isn't for everyone (more difficult to finish the interior primarily) but it serves its purpose. The building wouldn't be here without the insight and info I gathered from posts/members here on GJ. It's definitely a great resource.

The door issue isn't the end of the world, I can make a conventional opener work, but it's nowhere near as clean an install as the side-mounted jackshaft style opener. Oh well, I'll know next time.

I should have asked more questions and been more specific as to what I wanted when it came to ordering the building. The garage door was an afterthought, I was knee deep in learning how to spec the right concrete, 2022 supply issues, how I was going to erect the building, etc. I learned a lot and if I did it again, I'd know how to get all the I's dotted and T's crossed.

Also I tried not to customize things too much on the building, as that adds serious money on the building end. The simpler, more cookie-cutter you can make it = money saved. The layout I have is their traditional kit style, basically the only thing I changed is the door opening size to 16x10. If I started being very specific about things, it can add thousands. All things considered, if the garage door mounting style is my biggest issue, I did pretty good.

 

[metschers]

I had a 16'W x 10'H garage door installed in my 30x50 red iron building. Installer had to use a double track low front clearance kit due to the rafter at the front of the building not giving enough clearance for the torsion shaft/drum assembly.

I have enough clearance above the shaft/drum that a jackshaft / wall mounted operator will fit cleanly. But the Liftmaster 8500 documentation says it will not work with a double track / low clearance door. The cable off the drum comes out on the inside of the building, not outside as would be typical for most doors. So I think the shaft spins in reverse direction for open/close. Is this a deal breaker for wall mounted / jackshaft type opener?

If so, can someone recommend a good overhead opener (would really prefer not to go this route) that would be durable and long lasting, opening a 16x10 door? Any input/suggestions would be most appreciated

I had a 16'W x 10'H garage door installed in my 30x50 red iron building. Installer had to use a double track low front clearance kit due to the rafter at the front of the building not giving enough clearance for the torsion shaft/drum assembly.

I have enough clearance above the shaft/drum that a jackshaft / wall mounted operator will fit cleanly. But the Liftmaster 8500 documentation says it will not work with a double track / low clearance door. The cable off the drum comes out on the inside of the building, not outside as would be typical for most doors. So I think the shaft spins in reverse direction for open/close. Is this a deal breaker for wall mounted / jackshaft type opener?

If so, can someone recommend a good overhead opener (would really prefer not to go this route) that would be durable and long lasting, opening a 16x10 door? Any input/suggestions would be most appreciated!

 

[quakerj]

No, it is chain driven. You have a commercial door. I recommend a commercial opener. You can get a residential liftmaster with a 10' belt rail, but I don't like them for bigger doors like you have. They weren't designed for that, so that's why I didn't recommend it. In fact, I would personally go for a Liftmaster MT series opener. You aren't in a basement garage with rooms above it. A properly installed chain drive is more than adequate and either of those two openers should last forever.

I'm still on the fence with this. I see lots of 16x7, 18x7, 16x8 doors operated by the cheapest $99 opener the builder could get his hands on, and some see 20+ years out of them. Sure, I have more sq ft. of door, but I'd be shocked if it weighs over 500#, which is what most of the higher priced residential units are rated for. The Liftmaster 8500 IIRC isn't rated much above that. Doesn't the spring mostly take the load off the opener? The spring takes up about 3/4 of the torsion bar, and it takes very little effort to raise and close the door by hand. The building might look commercial (red iron), but this is a standard short panel residential door with vinyl backed insulation, not the steel backed insulated type.

I don't necessarily need it to last forever. If I have to replace a $350 opener in 10 years, it's not the end of the world. The compromise is more frequent replacement versus a quiet/smooth drive which I value highly.

I'm certainly going to do more research and spend more time looking up those commercial models you mentioned.

 

[p00p]

You have a commercial door. I recommend a commercial opener. You can get a residential liftmaster with a 10' belt rail, but I don't like them for bigger doors like you have.

Could the OP optimize for a higher spring rate & enable the use of the belt rail setup? The issue that might present itself is a need to modify the attachment points where the belt assembly meets the commercial door? That would be on the OP to figure out (hire out) ...

 

[kj_mustang]

Sure, I have more sq ft. of door, but I'd be shocked if it weighs over 500#, which is what most of the higher priced residential units are rated for. The Liftmaster 8500 IIRC isn't rated much above that.

Straight from the Liftmaster 8500 documentation
Max. Door Size: 14 ft. High by 18 ft. Wide. Max 180 Sq Ft.
MAX. DOOR WEIGHT 650 lbs

My 8500 is lifting a CHI commercial line door that is 10 X 12 and 2" insulated . no issues

 

[jstroede]

I'm still on the fence with this. I see lots of 16x7, 18x7, 16x8 doors operated by the cheapest $99 opener the builder could get his hands on, and some see 20+ years out of them. Sure, I have more sq ft. of door, but I'd be shocked if it weighs over 500#, which is what most of the higher priced residential units are rated for. The Liftmaster 8500 IIRC isn't rated much above that. Doesn't the spring mostly take the load off the opener? The spring takes up about 3/4 of the torsion bar, and it takes very little effort to raise and close the door by hand. The building might look commercial (red iron), but this is a standard short panel residential door with vinyl backed insulation, not the steel backed insulated type.

I don't necessarily need it to last forever. If I have to replace a $350 opener in 10 years, it's not the end of the world. The compromise is more frequent replacement versus a quiet/smooth drive which I value highly.

I'm certainly going to do more research and spend more time looking up those commercial models you mentioned.

Most companies consider any doors over 8' high to be a commercial door.

Go get you a $99 opener for a 10' door. I would like to see it. Yes, the spring does 99% of the work, but it still has to function over the length of the door. See how much the rails on those cheap *** openers bow and flex. They certainly aren't going to be smooth or quiet.

If you really cared about your door being quiet, you wouldn't have bought an insulated pan door.

You can get a residential liftmaster with a 10' rail, but they are almost 13' long and I think they should be a little more rigid. Just being a chain drive doesn't necessarily make it loud. They used to offer some heavy duty estate type residential openers with heavy rails for taller doors, but I don't think they offer them any more.

If these are all the things you wanted, you should have spelled all this out before anything was built. I'm trying to give you the best solutions to your problems, but I am guessing you tried to piece all this stuff out from different places so this is what you are left with.

 

[jstroede]

Could the OP optimize for a higher spring rate & enable the use of the belt rail setup? The issue that might present itself is a need to modify the attachment points where the belt assembly meets the commercial door? That would be on the OP to figure out (hire out) ...

I don't know what optimize for higher spring rates mean. If you can't open the door with two fingers, it isn't sprung right (unless it is setup for an 8500 which needs some different tuning).

The opener is attached to the door with a curved steel arm, whether it is residential or commercial. It doesn't really care either way.

The OP wants a unicorn that doesn't exist basically for a builder grade price.

 

[jstroede]

Sommer might have something close to what you are looking for, but you are going to be probably $600+ into one of those. Plus good luck finding anyone that knows anything about them should you have issues.

 

[quakerj]

The OP wants a unicorn that doesn't exist basically for a builder grade price.

I think you may have misinterpreted one or more of my posts or are drawing your own conclusions. When I mentioned the $99 builder grade unit, I was pointing out examples of extremely cheap units (and I've seen many) working fine on heavier doors for decades. I have no intentions on going cheap. Basically questioning why a higher quality belt drive opener wouldn't be appropriate for a 16x10 which is not exactly gigantic-- about 30% more surface area than your typical residential door, and nowhere near the weight limit for these openers. This is a residential setting after all, with low duty cycle. Most days it won't even get opened.

All that said, I'm going to research this more and consider all my options.