Geo thermal radiant flooring update

[Maxcustody]

Updated 1/26/2023

Thanks to @fitter30 he has identified this..............

How to Identify Kitec Plumbing | PlumbWize

The deterioration of Kitec plumbing happens in only a matter of time so it’s best to know ASAP if you have it. Find out all you need to know in this article.

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Hello, as stated I have geo thermal heating and the flow center controls radiant floor heating. I bought the house in 2019 and system installed in 2008, so I am not the original owner.

Short version, I am having sediment etc starving the pumps. I have replaced 3 over the Christmas weekend. I need to drain the tank of the sediment etc. However tank must be clogged because when I open the bottom valve to drain, I get nothing coming out.

I will try to answer any questions you all may have. However I don’t know a lot about the system. The tank is 40 gallon.

How can I fix this so it will drain so I can flush it out and refill????

THANK YOU!

 

[Wheelingit]

Is that a potable water tank?

 

[Maxcustody]

Is that a potable water tank?

It is not connected to my well. It is only for floor heat and air handler.

 

[Wheelingit]

That then is a closed loop system using the same water. There should be no sediment at all in that system. I have never seen a geo like that and I don't understand the problem. You may want to consider having the installer or other pro out to evaluate it.

 

[Wheelingit]

If you want to mess with it you could consider hooking up a compressor to the bottom boiler drain and giving it a short shot of air and see if that unclogs it.

 

[Maxcustody]

Yes it is closed loop. Like I said the short version……….I have been on the phone for weeks trying to figure out the issue. I think they did not used distilled water like they should have and it has been building up over the years. Here is a pump I replaced.

 

[Maxcustody]

If you want to mess with it you could consider hooking up a compressor to the bottom boiler drain and giving it a short shot of air and see if that unclogs it.

I also talked to my FIL and he suggested sticking some wire in to possibly loosen it?

 

[Maxcustody]

@Wheelingit

I posted a picture of a pump I replaced.

 

[Wheelingit]

If you get things moving again you should consider an in line strainer to catch that stuff. Still it shouldn't be there. I hope they used cross linked pex under the floor.

 

[PoorUB]

Yes it is closed loop. Like I said the short version……….I have been on the phone for weeks trying to figure out the issue. I think they did not used distilled water like they should have and it has been building up over the years. Here is a pump I replaced.

****! What type of well field do you have? Pump and dump? Looks like raw water.

I would be thinking the whole system needs a good flush, but if you do be careful to use chemicals acceptable to the materials in the system.

 

[PoorUB]

If compressed air will not blast the drain clear I would be tempted to get a full port ball valve, a short ****** and get it preparei o replace that drain valve. Unscrew the valve and when you get close to the end of the threads as long as it it not leaking water past the threads ot should be ok to take out as sediment has covered the hole. Screw on the ball valve, open it and work a stiff wire through the valve until you break through the scale, remove the wire, close the valve, screw om a hose and drain it.

Can you see through the water if you unscrew the large black cover on the top?

 

[Maxcustody]

****! What type of well field do you have? Pump and dump? Looks like raw water.
****! What type of well field do you have? Pump and dump? Looks like raw water.

I would be thinking the whole system needs a good flush, but if you do be careful to use chemicals acceptable to the materials in the system.

I have a separate well for the house. Plan is to flush, clean and refill with distilled water for the proper ph balance.

 

[Maxcustody]

If compressed air will not blast the drain clear I would be tempted to get a full port ball valve, a short ****** and get it preparei o replace that drain valve. Unscrew the valve and when you get close to the end of the threads as long as it it not leaking water past the threads ot should be ok to take out as sediment has covered the hole. Screw on the ball valve, open it and work a stiff wire through the valve until you break through the scale, remove the wire, close the valve, screw om a hose and drain it.

Can you see through the water if you unscrew the large black cover on the top?

No it is not clear water, probably 25-30 gallons in there.

 

[Maxcustody]

If compressed air will not blast the drain clear I would be tempted to get a full port ball valve, a short ****** and get it preparei o replace that drain valve. Unscrew the valve and when you get close to the end of the threads as long as it it not leaking water past the threads ot should be ok to take out as sediment has covered the hole. Screw on the ball valve, open it and work a stiff wire through the valve until you break through the scale, remove the wire, close the valve, screw om a hose and drain it.

Can you see through the water if you unscrew the large black cover on the top?

I think replacing with a ball valve is the best solution as well, thanks. Are they usually a universal size?

By the way my daughter and grandkids live in Fargo

 

[PoorUB]

"This is the geo system. I have a totally separate well for our water. The plan is to flush everything, clean and then refill with distilled water for the proper ph level. Just have to get the valve flowing to empty the tank."

No, do you have wells, a slinky, or pumping raw water from the ground.

You can have a geo system and pump raw water from the ground through the geo and dump it back somewhere.

Or is this the closed loop for the floor heat?

Just to clarify, a geo system has two separate water loops, one that goes out and into the ground, or some other method to reject, or collect heat. The loop runs through the heat pump and heats or cools a second loop, floor heat, or a heat exchanger in a fan coil air handler.

 

[Maxcustody]

"This is the geo system. I have a totally separate well for our water. The plan is to flush everything, clean and then refill with distilled water for the proper ph level. Just have to get the valve flowing to empty the tank."

No, do you have wells, a slinky, or pumping raw water from the ground.

You can have a geo system and pump raw water from the ground through the geo and dump it back somewhere.

Or is this the closed loop for the floor heat?

Just to clarify, a geo system has two separate water loops, one that goes out and into the ground, or some other method to reject, or collect heat. The loop runs through the heat pump and heats or cools a second loop, floor heat, or a heat exchanger in a fan coil air handler.

It is a closed loop system.

 

[PoorUB]

I think replacing with a ball valve is the best solution as well, thanks. Are they usually a universal size?

By the way my daughter and grandkids live in Fargo

It will have 1/2" or 3/4" NPT threads. I can not tell which one you have. I would guess 3/4".

If you unscrew that valve you might have 20-30 gallons of water rushing out, so be carefull!

Relatives living in Fargo? Sorry to hear that!

 

[PoorUB]

It is a closed loop system.

Which side is that tank on? The well side or the floor heat side?

 

[Maxcustody]

Which side is that tank on? The well side or the floor heat side?

That tank is for all the pumps for the floor heat.

 

[PoorUB]

That tank is for all the pumps for the floor heat.

Wow! that is really bad.

I would flush out the systme. You can buy cleaners spcifically for doing this, but you will need to hot wire" the pumps so they run constantly. It ight take two or threes cycle of fresh cleaner and running for a few days each time.

When you get it clean I would add glycol to the system. Distilled water and 30% glycol, or you can buy premixed. But you will never get all the old water out of the system with out flushing it well with distilled and it might take hundreds of gallons to do so.

 

[Maxcustody]

Wow! that is really bad.

I would flush out the systme. You can buy cleaners spcifically for doing this, but you will need to hot wire" the pumps so they run constantly. It ight take two or threes cycle of fresh cleaner and running for a few days each time.

When you get it clean I would add glycol to the system. Distilled water and 30% glycol, or you can buy premixed. But you will never get all the old water out of the system with out flushing it well with distilled and it might take hundreds of gallons to do so.

I called the manufacturer of the flow center and they recommended fernox so I have that to clean it.

I am assuming flushing it, adding cleaner with new water and flushing and refilling is going to be 10x better than the current situation.

 

[fitter30]

Valve off the the fill valve to tank, pull top keep a eye on the level. The only way a tank and piping would look like that is make up water bringing in new oxygen and minerals. Have glycol in it bet its down to almost zero protection.

 

[pcmeiners]

"The only way a tank and piping would look like that is make up water bringing in new oxygen and minerals."

Fully agree, with that much buildup on 3 pumps, it would take a massive carbon steel tank rusting for years to create that deposit buildup, not the tank size you have. You better rule out an open loop condition, I would not add any cleanup chemical or especially glycol before verifying the loop as it might get into you potable water. If it turns out to be open loop, you should have stainless pumps/tank.

 

[Maxcustody]

"The only way a tank and piping would look like that is make up water bringing in new oxygen and minerals."

Fully agree, with that much buildup on 3 pumps, it would take a massive carbon steel tank rusting for years to create that deposit buildup, not the tank size you have. You better rule out an open loop condition, I would not add any cleanup chemical before verifying the loop as it might get into you potable water. If it turns out to be open loop, you should have stainless pumps/tank.

Thanks, as I stated I was not around when the system was put in. I have had my HVAC guy here numerous times, he says it is closed loop. I am thinking over the years if they did not put the proper water in to begin with? If using regular water for 14+ years that may be what is running thru it. It says right on the tank to use proper PH or it could cause issues.................

 

[pcmeiners]

For the buildup you have you would need terrorist adding minerals by the pound to your water . Have the system tested.

 

[Jackfre]

Fitter and PC are on the money. Using raw water for a closed loop system you could not achieve this level of build up unless there is about constant fresh water make up, which means something is leaking somewhere and the system keeps feeding in fresh water to cook off. On a tight system with fresh water you would cook off whatever chemicals are in the water, but once it is cooked off it pretty much becomes inert. It has nothing left to give. Perhaps ther was an earlier leak which was fixed but the system wasn’t fixed, cleaned, maintained. “Jeez, honey we had better get this place sold quickly…” You need a top hand on this to determine what is going on. If your hvac guy has been out multiple times he may not be the right guy. A look at one of the pumps would/should have told what was happening or what had happened. Really jammed up geo guys are few and far between. Look for the Geo Heat Contractors Assoc for your area if you are into keeping it going. Tough choice as it will be costly to get it up to what it should be.

 

[Maxcustody]

Fitter and PC are on the money. Using raw water for a closed loop system you could not achieve this level of build up unless there is about constant fresh water make up, which means something is leaking somewhere and the system keeps feeding in fresh water to cook off. On a tight system with fresh water you would cook off whatever chemicals are in the water, but once it is cooked off it pretty much becomes inert. It has nothing left to give. Perhaps ther was an earlier leak which was fixed but the system wasn’t fixed, cleaned, maintained. “Jeez, honey we had better get this place sold quickly…” You need a top hand on this to determine what is going on. If your hvac guy has been out multiple times he may not be the right guy. A look at one of the pumps would/should have told what was happening or what had happened. Really jammed up geo guys are few and far between. Look for the Geo Heat Contractors Assoc for your area if you are into keeping it going. Tough choice as it will be costly to get it up to what it should be.

Thanks. You mention if I want to keep it going? Are there other options?

 

[Jackfre]

Let’s consider the radiant tubing for a bit. Is it pexA with the O2 barrier? If not you will get deterioration of the CI pumps in pretty short order. I had this happen on a job. The owner adamantly maintained that the pex was pex A. Given that there was not heat exchanger between the boiler and the slab. In one season that nice shiny SS boiler was junk. What do you have. Is the radiant tubing clear of debris and does it flow well when you replaced the circs? What is the condition of the HP? What is the cost of replacement/repair? Can you do any of this work or is it all paid out? What are your options? That is difficult as we don’t know the size, layout of the home. You could abandon the geo and go with a gas boiler to handle the radiant. You could add a new air to air HP for the air handler for H&C in the duct system. You could add a hot water coil fed by the boiler as second stage. You could 86 the whole system and go with mini-splits. Again, step one is to get a really good geo guy to once and for all determine what is going on and detail your option$. This can get into some serious dough so you want to be methodical.

 

[Maxcustody]

"The only way a tank and piping would look like that is make up water bringing in new oxygen and minerals."

Fully agree, with that much buildup on 3 pumps, it would take a massive carbon steel tank rusting for years to create that deposit buildup, not the tank size you have. You better rule out an open loop condition, I would not add any cleanup chemical or especially glycol before verifying the loop as it might get into you potable water. If it turns out to be open loop, you should have stainless pumps/tank.

Fitter and PC are on the money. Using raw water for a closed loop system you could not achieve this level of build up unless there is about constant fresh water make up, which means something is leaking somewhere and the system keeps feeding in fresh water to cook off. On a tight system with fresh water you would cook off whatever chemicals are in the water, but once it is cooked off it pretty much becomes inert. It has nothing left to give. Perhaps ther was an earlier leak which was fixed but the system wasn’t fixed, cleaned, maintained. “Jeez, honey we had better get this place sold quickly…” You need a top hand on this to determine what is going on. If your hvac guy has been out multiple times he may not be the right guy. A look at one of the pumps would/should have told what was happening or what had happened. Really jammed up geo guys are few and far between. Look for the Geo Heat Contractors Assoc for your area if you are into keeping it going. Tough choice as it will be costly to get it up to what it should be.

The possibility of it being linked to my potable water well and not to use cleaner was mentioned. The well heads for each are on opposite sides of the house. In the upper right picture is the house water well pipe. Below are the geothermal well heads. Is there still any possibility of them being linked?

 

[Maxcustody]

Let’s consider the radiant tubing for a bit. Is it pexA with the O2 barrier? If not you will get deterioration of the CI pumps in pretty short order. I had this happen on a job. The owner adamantly maintained that the pex was pex A. Given that there was not heat exchanger between the boiler and the slab. In one season that nice shiny SS boiler was junk. What do you have. Is the radiant tubing clear of debris and does it flow well when you replaced the circs? What is the condition of the HP? What is the cost of replacement/repair? Can you do any of this work or is it all paid out? What are your options? That is difficult as we don’t know the size, layout of the home. You could abandon the geo and go with a gas boiler to handle the radiant. You could add a new air to air HP for the air handler for H&C in the duct system. You could add a hot water coil fed by the boiler as second stage. You could 86 the whole system and go with mini-splits. Again, step one is to get a really good geo guy to once and for all determine what is going on and detail your option$. This can get into some serious dough so you want to be methodical.

I have plans of the radiant, but that’s all. I have no idea what they used or how the flow was after replacing the pumps. All I know is they “work” now. However, as I mentioned I am retired LEO and have no idea about this stuff. I am trying to DIY to the best of my ability. I appreciate your help.

 

[Wheelingit]

You first really need to look at the nomenclature on the tubing and determine if it is an oxygen barrier type tubing.

 

[pcmeiners]

"The well heads for each are on opposite sides of the house."

Well water strata is like a large lake only under ground, and different strata can exchange water between them , so you can not be sure your loop with chemicals added can not pollute your well. If both were a 1/2 mile apart there would likely nothing to worry about. Find out what the situation with loop is before using chemicals, again especially with glycol. If your wondering, when I was young in my neanderthal days I put in a couple hundred wells.

Wow you have plans? Have not seen plans since I was a foreman for construction on large buildings in Manhattan, in another life.

"If not you will get deterioration of the CI pumps in pretty short order"

From the pictures, one of the main ingrdient of the scale buildup is Iron, you won't get that from Pex, the problem is a fresh water source.

 

[Maxcustody]

"The well heads for each are on opposite sides of the house."

Well water strata is like a large lake only under ground, and different strata can exchange water between them , so you can not be sure your loop with chemicals added can not pollute your well. If both were a 1/2 mile apart there would likely nothing to worry about. Find out what the situation with loop is before using chemicals, again especially with glycol. If your wondering, when I was young in my neanderthal days I put in a couple hundred wells.

Wow you have plans? Have not seen plans since I was a foreman for construction on large buildings in Manhattan, in another life.

Thanks for this info. I will definitely hold off on the chemical cleaner. LOL, plans may be the wrong word. The previous owner left me all the blueprints.

 

[pcmeiners]

Plans and blue prints me the same thing to me. Every homeowner of a home should have a full set, rarely happens though.

 

[Maxcustody]

Plans and blue prints me the same thing to me. Every homeowner of a home should have a full set, rarely happens though.

Thanks, thought you were making fun of me and my terminology.

 

[Maxcustody]

From the pictures, one of the main ingredient of the scale buildup is Iron, you won't get that from Pex, the problem is a fresh water source.

You are correct, I did check it with a magnet.

 

[fitter30]

All that orange warm rita pipe is Kitec plumbing and is bad pipe. Heres a article.

How to Identify Kitec Plumbing | PlumbWize

The deterioration of Kitec plumbing happens in only a matter of time so it’s best to know ASAP if you have it. Find out all you need to know in this article.

www.plumbwize.ca

There should be no connection between the geo loops and the rest of the system unless the heat exchangers ( condensers) would have refrigerate on the other side.

 

[Maxcustody]

All that orange warm rita pipe is Kitec plumbing and is bad pipe. Heres a article.

How to Identify Kitec Plumbing | PlumbWize

The deterioration of Kitec plumbing happens in only a matter of time so it’s best to know ASAP if you have it. Find out all you need to know in this article.

www.plumbwize.ca

Didn’t want to read that

 

[Maxcustody]

Updated 1/26/2023



I have changed the title and updated the first post. Thanks

 

[kj_mustang]

Assuming it is staple up under the floor install, it would require you taking the ceiling material down in every first floor room to replace the second story piping. Is first floor on crawl space/basement or slab?