Looking for Used Valve Seat Grinder Setup - Any Recommendations?

[bulletpruf]

I've been wanting to get set up to do valve jobs for a while and now I have a set of heads (Ford/International 7.3 IDI diesel) that needs a $400 valve job. For that price or just a bit more, I think I can purchase a valve seat grinding kit.

What I don't know is whether all the main manufacturers (Sioux, Snap-On/Blue Point, Quickway, Thor, Black and Decker, etc) use the same components and stones. I'm hoping to purchase a complete valve seat grinding set, but I'm worried about buying something and then not being able to find new/lightly used components.

Also, how does one re-face valves if you don't have a big bulky valve grinder? Am I just peeing in the wind grinding the seats if I don't have a valve grinder, too?

Thanks,

Scott

 

[Ricky Joe]

The old way was to cut a seat and then lap the valve with lapping compound, working it back and forth with a valve lapper.

 

[finn]

To do it right, you need a valve face grinder, and also pay attention to the guide clearance. The valve faces get cupped with mileage, and lapping won’t fix that.

I would think most rebuilders use something like the Serdi equipment by now. Used valve and seat grinders show up occasionally on eBay, and even sometimes on Craigslist.

 

[06 DIESEL]

I went down this road a few years ago when I was beginning to look into rebuilding a few of my tractors. Facebook marketplace and craigslist had a few here and there. A friend's dad heard me talking and ended up giving me his set, I still have to pick them up from him after he gets his shop cleaned up some to be able to get to them since they are in the back.

New cutters from my research are costly. I settled on ones from Neway MFG but have not bought any yet since the project was put on hold.

NEWAY

They sell kits and individual pieces. Their guy you email is a wealth of knowledge and will help you spend as little as possible to complete your task at hand as long as you can get him the correct information.

 

[bulletpruf]

To do it right, you need a valve face grinder, and also pay attention to the guide clearance. The valve faces get cupped with mileage, and lapping won’t fix that.

I would think most rebuilders use something like the Serdi equipment by now. Used valve and seat grinders show up occasionally on eBay, and even sometimes on Craigslist.

I'm addressing the valve guides first; once that's done, I'll tackle the seats.

Thanks

 

[Ricky Joe]

I'm addressing the valve guides first; once that's done, I'll tackle the seats.

Thanks

If you reread, you will see that I recommended cutting first, then lapping.

 

[bulletpruf]

I went down this road a few years ago when I was beginning to look into rebuilding a few of my tractors. Facebook marketplace and craigslist had a few here and there. A friend's dad heard me talking and ended up giving me his set, I still have to pick them up from him after he gets his shop cleaned up some to be able to get to them since they are in the back.

New cutters from my research are costly. I settled on ones from Neway MFG but have not bought any yet since the project was put on hold.

NEWAY

They sell kits and individual pieces. Their guy you email is a wealth of knowledge and will help you spend as little as possible to complete your task at hand as long as you can get him the correct information.

I looked at the neway stuff and I've been in touch with someone very helpful via e mail. However that's a cutter and I'm more interested in a grinder setup. From what I can tell, with a cutter setup, you need a new cutter fairly often; they're specific to the particular angle and size of the seat, and they're expensive, too.

With a grinder, you can change the angle of the stone if you need one that's a particular angle. At least that's how I understand it. Anyway, it appears to me that a grinder setup with stones is more versatile.

 

[bulletpruf]

If you reread, you will see that I recommended cutting first, then lapping.

Yes, I saw your post. I was responding to someone else.

 

[Ricky Joe]

Yes, I saw your post. I was responding to someone else.

I meant to respond to Finn. Sorry.

 

[Packard V8]

I've been wanting to get set up to do valve jobs for a while and now I have a set of heads (Ford/International 7.3 IDI diesel) that needs a $400 valve job. For that price or just a bit more, I think I can purchase a valve seat grinding kit.

What I don't know is whether all the main manufacturers (Sioux, Snap-On/Blue Point, Quickway, Thor, Black and Decker, etc) use the same components and stones. I'm hoping to purchase a complete valve seat grinding set, but I'm worried about buying something and then not being able to find new/lightly used components.

Also, how does one re-face valves if you don't have a big bulky valve grinder? Am I just peeing in the wind grinding the seats if I don't have a valve grinder, too?

Thanks,

Scott

Hi, Scott,

From experience, by the time a 7.3 needs a valve job, it probably needs new valves and guides in addition to touching up the seats. So yes, regrinding seats is the easiest, least expensive part of the process.

On the one hand, it's affordable to buy used equipment to play with, but the tooling always gets out of hand. You'll need 3/8", 11/32", 5/16"-8mm, 7mm pilots.

Then, there are the core drills and reamers for guides.

And oh, BTW, you'd never want to put 7.3 heads back on without resurfacing them.

Bottom line - $400 is a bargain.

jack vines

 

[bulletpruf]

Hi, Scott,

From experience, by the time a 7.3 needs a valve job, it probably needs new valves and guides in addition to touching up the seats. So yes, regrinding seats is the easiest, least expensive part of the process.

On the one hand, it's affordable to buy used equipment to play with, but the tooling always gets out of hand. You'll need 3/8", 11/32", 5/16"-8mm, 7mm pilots.

Then, there are the core drills and reamers for guides.

And oh, BTW, you'd never want to put 7.3 heads back on without resurfacing them.

Bottom line - $400 is a bargain.

jack vines

Hi Jack -

I had planned to replace the valves because they're not terribly expensive, but they're backordered now so I may clean them up a bit and use them. FYI - the valves in question were recently replaced; they're not the original ones for these heads.

The valve seat grinder kits that I'm seeing come with numerous pilots, but I suspect I'd have to source a few as well. You're right -- they're not cheap.

As for the guides, I have a reamer and hone on the way to address the guides that are tight. Again, expensive stuff - about $20 per hone and I got a few and the .390" reamer set me back $65 or so, and I may never use it again.

I checked both pairs of my heads for straightness and they're actually good. The worst one is still less than .002" away from being perfect. Piston to valve clearance is tight on these engines and I'll be running an aftermarket cam so I'm nervous about doing anything more than a skim cut.

Thanks

Scott

 

[bulletpruf]

I was looking at something along these lines, but this is a bit more than I'd like to spend - https://www.ebay.com/itm/2846890799...CGc=|tkp:Bk9SR8y0nPS9YQ&LH_ItemCondition=3000

 

[finn]

I meant to respond to Finn. Sorry.

I didn’t mean to imply any order to the work. Just don’t forget the guides.

 

[bulletpruf]

I didn’t mean to imply any order to the work. Just don’t forget the guides.

Agreed. Guides need to be done, too.

 

[gregs]

I dont know what material the seats are made out of in those heads, but thats something you need to verify to make sure you have the correct stones or cutters. Goodson tool is a good resource for all the various pieces and parts. As far as I know, not much interchanges between brands. I have a Sioux set thats at least 50 years old that gets used every now and then.

 

[bscman]

Where are you located?
Im in the PNW and my father has been toying with the idea of selling his two Kwik-way valve seat grinders and his valve refacer machine.

He's a heavy diesel mechanic by trade, and we rolled up a decade or so ago with small engine and sbc tooling.

We are in the opposite boat.
For us $400 is a bargain over trippingnover and constantly shifting around all this heavy equipment/tooling for the rare times we need it.

 

[bulletpruf]

I dont know what material the seats are made out of in those heads, but thats something you need to verify to make sure you have the correct stones or cutters. Goodson tool is a good resource for all the various pieces and parts. As far as I know, not much interchanges between brands. I have a Sioux set thats at least 50 years old that gets used every now and then.

That’s problem #1 - the exhaust valve seats are 37.5 degrees. Have not found stones ground on that angle yet.

It would cost me $400 or so to get set up with Neway cutters for these heads but I can get cutters with the correct angle.

There seems to be three groups of interchangeability in the different stone grinders so that is something to watch. Sioux seems to have the strongest following.

Thanks

 

[bulletpruf]

Where are you located?
Im in the PNW and my father has been toying with the idea of selling his two Kwik-way valve seat grinders and his valve refacer machine.

He's a heavy diesel mechanic by trade, and we rolled up a decade or so ago with small engine and sbc tooling.

We are in the opposite boat.
For us $400 is a bargain over trippingnover and constantly shifting around all this heavy equipment/tooling for the rare times we need it.

I’m on the other side of the country - Virginia.

 

[laser3kw]

I am partial to Sioux valve seat grinder. I bought grinder kit new 30 years ago for around $1400? Make sure if you buy used that it has the stone truing fixture with it.

 

[bulletpruf]

I am partial to Sioux valve seat grinder. I bought grinder kit new 30 years ago for around $1400? Make sure if you buy used that it has the stone truing fixture with it.

Yep. I see some kits that don't include this.

Thanks

 

[steel 35]

Measure the valve height yet?
Another full set on the wrong side for you!

 

[bulletpruf]

Measure the valve height yet?
Another full set on the wrong side for you!

Are you referring to valve recession? How far the valve has sunk into the cylinder head relative to the deck of the cylinder head? If so, yes.

Thanks

 

[steel 35]

Good

 

[bulletpruf]

Good

I even shot a video of it, just for you!

 

[gregs]

That’s problem #1 - the exhaust valve seats are 37.5 degrees. Have not found stones ground on that angle yet.

It would cost me $400 or so to get set up with Neway cutters for these heads but I can get cutters with the correct angle.

There seems to be three groups of interchangeability in the different stone grinders so that is something to watch. Sioux seems to have the strongest following.

Thanks

I have the wheel truing fixture that uses a diamond tipped tool. You also can use it to change the angle of a stone. Typically you need 3 different stones so that you can raise or lower the seat contact area to match the center area of the valve face. Also some seats are spec'd at .5 degree difference to allow some wearing in and keeping a smaller contact area. I believe its supposed to keep the area cooler. I am not a 100% certain how mission critical it is though. Also you have to figure out what diameter stones you need because the pocket area of the head will only allow a certain size to fit in. And typically the size difference between the intakes and exhausts work out that you need different diameter stones for them, basically meaning you will need 6 different stones. I haven't done any diesel engine work, but from looking at the Goodson Tool site over the years I see that they have different stone composition for the super hard seats used in diesel engines. The $400 offer ^^^ seems like a great deal even paying the shipping from one side to the other.

 

[bulletpruf]

I have the wheel truing fixture that uses a diamond tipped tool. You also can use it to change the angle of a stone. Typically you need 3 different stones so that you can raise or lower the seat contact area to match the center area of the valve face. Also some seats are spec'd at .5 degree difference to allow some wearing in and keeping a smaller contact area. I believe its supposed to keep the area cooler. I am not a 100% certain how mission critical it is though. Also you have to figure out what diameter stones you need because the pocket area of the head will only allow a certain size to fit in. And typically the size difference between the intakes and exhausts work out that you need different diameter stones for them, basically meaning you will need 6 different stones. I haven't done any diesel engine work, but from looking at the Goodson Tool site over the years I see that they have different stone composition for the super hard seats used in diesel engines. The $400 offer ^^^ seems like a great deal even paying the shipping from one side to the other.

Ok, so the truing fixture can also be used to change the angle. That makes sense. Thanks for the explanation.

Scott

 

[laser3kw]

Ok, so the truing fixture can also be used to change the angle.

yes, I didn't mention that - sorry. After using the grinder for years I just took it for granted that everyone knew that. That's why it is important to make sure you get one with the grinder set.

 

[Ricky Joe]

I even shot a video of it, just for you!

Excellent video: concise, to the point, informative, and well presented.

 

[bulletpruf]

Excellent video: concise, to the point, informative, and well presented.

Thanks!!!

 

[humber2]

The valve grinder needs to have the holder for the diamond dresser to have its wheel trued up.

Also useful is the radius grinding attachment to true up worn rocker faces.

Stones are consumable items, there’s quite a few things to always verify for accurate work.

 

[cannuck]

I have used Neway cutters for the last 50 years. They have done hundreds of heads and I have only bought some new inserts for a few of them one time. My experience is that with a cutter you can clearly see exactly what you have removed so you take as little material as possible. Also easy to move the seat around again since it is so easy to see where you have cut. My valve grinder is a B&D with a two digit serial number (so extremely old) and as with anything else, all about how carefully you use it to get good results. Hand lapping of course to identify seat contact area on valve.

 

[ArmyVW_GuyInTX]

I've been wanting to get set up to do valve jobs for a while and now I have a set of heads (Ford/International 7.3 IDI diesel) that needs a $400 valve job. For that price or just a bit more, I think I can purchase a valve seat grinding kit.

What I don't know is whether all the main manufacturers (Sioux, Snap-On/Blue Point, Quickway, Thor, Black and Decker, etc) use the same components and stones. I'm hoping to purchase a complete valve seat grinding set, but I'm worried about buying something and then not being able to find new/lightly used components.

Also, how does one re-face valves if you don't have a big bulky valve grinder? Am I just peeing in the wind grinding the seats if I don't have a valve grinder, too?

Thanks,

Scott

If you were closer I have an old Sioux bench grinder - incomplete that you could have for a coke.

 

[bulletpruf]

If you were closer I have an old Sioux bench grinder - incomplete that you could have for a coke.

I'm headed to Dallas in a few weeks to pick up my '72 Alfa Romeo at the interior shop...

 

[bulletpruf]

I have used Neway cutters for the last 50 years. They have done hundreds of heads and I have only bought some new inserts for a few of them one time. My experience is that with a cutter you can clearly see exactly what you have removed so you take as little material as possible. Also easy to move the seat around again since it is so easy to see where you have cut. My valve grinder is a B&D with a two digit serial number (so extremely old) and as with anything else, all about how carefully you use it to get good results. Hand lapping of course to identify seat contact area on valve.

I do like the Neway cutters. I'm just a bit concerned that it would be fairly expensive to purchase the necessary cutters every time I tackle a new set of heads, especially since I currently have the following engines that do or may need valve jobs - AMC 401, Ford 428, Ford 302, Ford/International 7.3, Chevy 350, Alfa Romeo 2.0, and Pontiac 455.

 

[gregs]

I have used Neway cutters for the last 50 years. They have done hundreds of heads and I have only bought some new inserts for a few of them one time. My experience is that with a cutter you can clearly see exactly what you have removed so you take as little material as possible. Also easy to move the seat around again since it is so easy to see where you have cut. My valve grinder is a B&D with a two digit serial number (so extremely old) and as with anything else, all about how carefully you use it to get good results. Hand lapping of course to identify seat contact area on valve.

I typically use dykem or a big sharpie on the valve seat to see the contact area on the valve. I usually grab the valve stem and give it a little spin with lite pressure and it transfers to the valve. It also allows you to see where the stone is cutting on the seat to measure the width. I feel like lapping is a personal preference, if the valve face and seat are freshly cut I don't feel like there is much to be gained by lapping them. Its not like they lap them when there brand new.

 

[cannuck]

I typically use dykem ..... Its not like they lap them when there brand new.

I am usually working with one of five cylinder heads, and two of those for 50+ years and 1 more 48, so pretty much know where things are going with each cutter. A valve to me has no sharp edges of any kind - I could no doubt get away without lapping, but after so long it just feels right and is final verification I got the seat in the right place. In case you haven't figured it out, I am a bit freaky about flow at low lift. No, they don't hand lap at factory but I hope to Hell I work to a far higher standard than series production could ever hope to achieve.

 

[cannuck]

I do like the Neway cutters. I'm just a bit concerned that it would be fairly expensive to purchase the necessary cutters every time I tackle a new set of heads, especially since I currently have the following engines that do or may need valve jobs - AMC 401, Ford 428, Ford 302, Ford/International 7.3, Chevy 350, Alfa Romeo 2.0, and Pontiac 455.

You might be surprised at how many cutters can be shared. The diameters are changed by sliding the cutter inserts in slots, so it is really just a matter of getting the right angles and approximate diameters. Pilots (relatively cheap) all are specific to guide diameter and length, but share same cutter pilot size. IIRC when I did my 7.3 I did not have to buy anything other than pilot.

BTW: Ex AMC guy - what is the 401 going in?

 

[bulletpruf]

You might be surprised at how many cutters can be shared. The diameters are changed by sliding the cutter inserts in slots, so it is really just a matter of getting the right angles and approximate diameters. Pilots (relatively cheap) all are specific to guide diameter and length, but share same cutter pilot size. IIRC when I did my 7.3 I did not have to buy anything other than pilot.

Well, I just spent $520 at Neway - got 3 cutters, two fixed pilots, one adjustable pilot and a few odds and ends. I suspect the 37.5 degree cutter won't get much use until/unless I build another IDI motor, but hoping the other bits can be used on other engine builds.

BTW: Ex AMC guy - what is the 401 going in?

The 401 is for my '71 Javelin track day project. Car was a stalled project when I bought it about 12 years ago; I made some progress and it's stalled again. Anyway, it's an original Z code SST. The BW auto is gone - replaced with a close ratio T10 - and the AMC 20 was ditched in favor of a cup car style cambered 9" rear with disk brakes. I built the 401 over 10 years ago; just a fairly mild solid tappet build with moderate compression and Edelbrock heads. Car came out of CA, said to have original 33k miles, so it's super solid. I'll get back after it after I sell the Alfa, finish the Fairlane and GTO convertibles and sell them, and get the '69 Bronco to where it's roadworthy. May want to check back in 20 years!

Details on this video at the 4:30 mark -

 

[ArmyVW_GuyInTX]

I'm headed to Dallas in a few weeks to pick up my '72 Alfa Romeo at the interior shop...

i am north of dallas in zip code 76226. Where in NVA do you call home?

 

[bulletpruf]

i am north of dallas in zip code 76226. Where in NVA do you call home?

I'm usually in Fairfax county during the week and in Locust Grove (15 miles west of Fredericksburg) on the weekends, but it's not home. Home is San Antonio; headed back there this summer when I retire from the Army.

I'll send you a pm on the grinder.