Fireball Tool Hardtail Vise - The Best Vise On The Market???

[Jack_Attack]

Anyone else receive their Hardtail vise yet? I confirmed mine is on its way this week. I thought I'd have finished building my new shop by now, nope... still in my 1/2 car garage.

What are some ideas on how to disguise this vise so my wife doesn't see it?

I am thinking about putting it on casters, covering with an old leather shop apron, clamping a seat between the jaws and pretending it's a shop stool when I'm not using it.

 

[General Geoff]

When did you order yours?

 

[Jack_Attack]

When did you order yours?

I placed my order September 13, 2021. Pretty damn excited to receive this thing. It's just going to look hilarious in my garage until I finish building my detached workshop out back.

 

[General Geoff]

Glad to hear it's on its way. I ordered mine 5 days after you, so maaaaybe I'll hear from them by February

 

[Packard V8]

FWIW, in a former life I worked in a steel foundry. You're not going to cast a vise out of steel at consumer price. About once a month, someone would come in with a similar idea and we'd have to go through the wasted effort of giving them a quote. Cast steel costs several multiples of cast iron. Hint, that's why we've never been able to buy cast steel vises, but cast iron is the metal of choice.

BTW, I'm in Spokane and know the foundry Jason had hoped to have cast his iron.

jack vines

 

[dr_clyde]

FWIW, in a former life I worked in a steel foundry. You're not going to cast a vise out of steel at consumer price. About once a month, someone would come in with a similar idea and we'd have to go through the wasted effort of giving them a quote. Cast steel costs several multiples of cast iron. Hint, that's why we've never been able to buy cast steel vises, but cast iron is the metal of choice.

BTW, I'm in Spokane and know the foundry Jason had hoped to have cast his iron.

jack vines

Hoped to? Did they reject him for some reason?

And I’ll work with my foundry on steel pricing, I would much prefer steel to iron. Looks like I’m at $4-5/lb-ish for cast steel. Not sure where iron is at for pricing. Obviously this is still a work in progress. If I can make steel work I’d much prefer that route, especially from a machinability aspect.

 

[Packard V8]

If I can make steel work I’d much prefer that route, especially from a machinability aspect.

FWIW, better check with those in the business. Iron can be cost-effectively cast to much closer tolerances than steel, thus less machining required. Then, iron machines much easier than steel, so less cost there also.

Bottom line - there's a reason vises are iron.

jack vines

 

[slowtwitch73]

CNC em from solid!

 

[merkyworks]

So, there's a lot of factors at play here and I'm still looking into costing this out. I've spent the last week or two working on this in my free time at the shop.

I think it would for sure be feasible to make a USA made vise for significantly less than Jason's vise. The question is how inexpensive can it be while still maintaining the integrity of the product and making enough profit to make it worth while.

So far I've designed a prototype and am getting quotes for the work and materials.

Based on the numbers I've gotten back so far, I think a realistic price point for me to make a vise would probably be somewhere between Jason's two vises.

My current target would be to make and sell a 6" USA made vise for between 2k and $2800.

Now, whether or not there's a market for a $2800 vise is another whole kettle of fish.

Wilton is hit or miss on their pricing, but depending on the vendor and if they're on sale, the 600N is between $1500 and $2200. The Milwaukee Morgan is about $1500 and the 6" Orange is about $1500 but that's a fairly specialized vise and not really comparable to a general shop vise. Still a USA bench vise though.

So we've got a spread of $1500 to $3800 in the current available offerings.

I think there's room in the middle. Maybe only a few people a year want one. Who knows.

Lot of keyboard warrior talk if you ask me. Actually make a real working prototype and then let’s see where your cost shake out.

 

[dr_clyde]

FWIW, better check with those in the business. Iron can be cost-effectively cast to much closer tolerances than steel, thus less machining required. Then, iron machines much easier than steel, so less cost there also.

Bottom line - there's a reason vises are iron.

jack vines

What makes you think I haven’t been doing exactly that?

Vises are made from iron because it’s cheaper and easier from steel.

 

[dr_clyde]

Lot of keyboard warrior talk if you ask me. Actually make a real working prototype and then let’s see where your cost shake out.

Cool, cool. Always fun to be insulted by strangers on the internet for no reason.

I’m working on the prototype now, but a prototype’s cost isn’t necessarily representative of a production cost.

The first one of anything costs more due to the startup and setup costs.

This kind of stuff takes time, it’s not like I can just snap my fingers and make it so. It’ll take me a while to get my design, my patterns, tooling and setups, my programs and my process figured out. I would expect it to take a few months at the minimum because I’m doing this in my spare time.

I’m also doing this purely as a hobby interest, but I am treating it as a business endeavor and keeping track of my expenses and costs. If it works out an I can make and sell a few vises, cool. If not, it was a fun project. My time invested in the labor is not something I’m charging myself for, although I’m somewhat keeping track of it.

I do find it quite strange that peoples first instinct tends to be to **** all over someone’s ideas or plans. Especially a stranger who you know nothing about.

 

[dr_clyde]

CNC em from solid!

Mmmm, no.

That would truly be a waste of time and money.

 

[General Geoff]

I do find it quite strange that peoples first instinct tends to be to **** all over someone’s ideas or plans. Especially a stranger who you know nothing about.

Every major innovation in history was **** upon by naysayers before reaching fruition. Don't be discouraged!

 

[BlitzcrankJapan]

Since we are talking about prices.
I thought I would both show those who are interested a possible new product and also so we can compare prices of 'western made' vices.
Dawn fabrication goes back to 1917 according to their website, and I'm fairly certain they are the only remaining company to manufacture vices in Australia. Very few tools are made in Australia anymore.

Hand Tools | Vices | Clamps - Dawn Tools

Buy wide range of gripping, clamping & quality hand tools, Vices in Melbourne, Australia by Dawn Tools. Browse and Order online today! Contact Us today on 03 9457 6111.

www.dawntools.com.au

#60167 is a 200mm (8") cast iron vice weighing 74.6kg that costs approx AUD3180. They list it as cast iron (semi-steel).
#60215-SS is a 200mm (8') Stainless Steel 316 fabricated (welded) vice weighing 59.9kg that cost approx AUD4505

They also manufacture many other types of clamps and vise accessories. Many made by themselves here in Australia or listed as being made in UK.

 

[Rccrawlerguy]

You guys have an hour to kill? Check out this video Jason put up on his site. I'm not going to give any spoilers other than Wilton fans beware.

Exclusive Video Content

Providing education, entertainment, and inspiration since 2018. Office Build Episode 9:Guardrails of the Galaxy The last entry of the multi-year long Sci-Fi Office Project! SCI-FI OFFICE BUILD SERIES Office Build Episode 8: The Command Center Office Build Episode 7: The Star Map Office Build...

fireballtool.com

 

[Maui]

I bought an OLD Rock Island for 65.00 years ago, it’s got a 6” jaw and about 26” long. I haven’t found anything It hasn’t been able to clamp sufficiently yet.

I've got a Hollands 56 with 6" wide jaws that can handle anything we throw at it!

 

[cvairwerks]

All I've got to say is holy mackerel ... Waiting for mine and it's going to be worth it!

 

[AmericanMechanic]

You guys have an hour to kill? Check out this video Jason put up on his site. I'm not going to give any spoilers other than Wilton fans beware.

Exclusive Video Content

Providing education, entertainment, and inspiration since 2018. Office Build Episode 9:Guardrails of the Galaxy The last entry of the multi-year long Sci-Fi Office Project! SCI-FI OFFICE BUILD SERIES Office Build Episode 8: The Command Center Office Build Episode 7: The Star Map Office Build...

fireballtool.com

 

[slowtwitch73]

^^ that's quite the video. Impressive as usual.

 

[shawhite]

Very impressive just wish he would make a 1/2 scale USA version I would buy it in a second

 

[slowtwitch73]

Def capable... just not sure anyone needs a vise that capable. Clamping force? After a point its a party trick. He mentions a steel foundry.. I could see a few places like that, but really wtf just hammers the **** out of a vise. It's idiotic vise use. I could go out and bust all my vises right now if I wanted. I'd sooner have the Wilton as the weight and size of the FB is a negative.

But lots of guys drive to the mall in lifted one tons with snorkels so...

 

[Steve_P]

I'm not going to sign up to watch the video, but do failure comparisons really matter when even an $80 vise won't fail without attaching a 3-4' pipe or breaker bar to it? Yeah, bragging rights, but the reality is that it's meaningless in the real world when you buy the strongest vise available and then use the installed short handle that ensures that failure isn't remotely possible.

 

[teagueo]

Tough crowd lol. There's probably a few savages out there that could take advantage of that kind of strength.

 

[AA/FC]

I'm not going to sign up to watch the video, but do failure comparisons really matter when even an $80 vise won't fail without attaching a 3-4' pipe or breaker bar to it? Yeah, bragging rights, but the reality is that it's meaningless in the real world when you buy the strongest vise available and then use the installed short handle that ensures that failure isn't remotely possible.

You don't have to sign up for anything..... Just click the link above, then click on the first video on that page...

 

[slowtwitch73]

Tough crowd lol. There's probably a few savages out there that could take advantage of that kind of strength.

Yup some gorilla will get 'hold of one and post a youtube vid in a week about how they broke one in half.

 

[M635_Guy]

He was trying to prove he designed and built an immensely tough vise by doing things well beyond abusive use to it.

He succeeded. I don't understand anyone who isn't impressed with that thing.

 

[Maui]

I really enjoyed the video. I watched the entire thing from start to finish. He did an excellent job designing and building his vise.

 

[General Geoff]

Also just finished watching the entire video. Spoiler: 40,000 lbs clamping force when the handle began to bend, and bypassing the handle with a 10 foot long cheater bar, 90,000 lbs before the main spindle nut failed. Both are cheap, easily replaceable parts. Main body and dynamic jaw survived all testing including several hundred 85lb hammer strikes from multiple directions.

This is one super impressive vise. I can't wait to get mine.

 

[General Geoff]

Very impressive just wish he would make a 1/2 scale USA version I would buy it in a second

I think he's working on a 3/4 scale version, might be another year before it's available for preorder though.

 

[cvairwerks]

If want something smaller, he has plans for a shop built vise that is pretty nice too.

 

[M635_Guy]

I really enjoyed the video. I watched the entire thing from start to finish. He did an excellent job designing and building his vise.

I intended to skip through it. I didn't pop ahead once...

The testing machine he built was pretty impressive too...

 

[F-22]

Says Wilton used a bar guide cause it's cheap but I'm not sure if a square is necessarily always stronger - definitely not from all sides, and definitely easier to get extremely precise tolerances on the round bar...


It's a big vise for sure, but IMO it's got limited uses due to it. Don't like that the jaws aren't pinned either.

 

[shawhite]

Wonder if this was the USA version or the made in Taiwan version lol. I’d be interested in a 4/4.5 jaw width max open of 6ish. And could fit on a normal work bench.

 

[General Geoff]

It was the Taiwan version.

 

[shawhite]

Did I miss that part of the video

 

[GeoBruin]

Did I miss that part of the video

I think you can infer by the stated price.

 

[General Geoff]

Did I miss that part of the video

He didn't explicitly say it's the Taiwan version, but he did say it's $1800, which is the price of the Taiwan version. Also the USA version is not in production yet.

 

[Brand]

He didn't explicitly say it's the Taiwan version, but he did say it's $1800, which is the price of the Taiwan version. Also the USA version is not in production yet.

Also he said the USA version will say USA on the side.

 

[wrenchr]

I'm not doubting the brute strength of the hardtail vise but it did seem like that hammer was hitting down lower on that bar than the other 2. The wilton seemed higher up. I watched the video once of course. Let me know what you noticed. And I'm not saying the Wilton or the Morgan/Milwaukee would have came even close. Not even saying intentional.

 

[General Geoff]

Let's compare from screenshots:





Looks like the Wilton was being struck maybe 1-1/2" higher on the coupon, the Morgan looks like it was struck at about the same spot tho