New Icon G2 Wrenches? (Not just Ratchets)

[rword]

That's a shame about Carlyle - did they lower their prices? They were at a pretty premium price point, even compared to Icon.

I doubt Icon will go MiC or to a lower standard. They seem to have pretty solid momentum, and shadowing Carlyle would be a bad move IMHO. I guess we'll see...

No, I think they actually raised the prices. Figure that one out

 

[Hakeem]

Actually, you are wrong. They call it "Dual 80 Technology"...

Yes, thank you for proving my point. They use the same nomenclature for the 72 tooth 1/4” ratchet as their 80 tooth 3/8” and 1/2” drive ratchets. All are referred in the same way - Dual 80® Technology ratchets.

Not sleazy marketing, but accurate marketing. The 72T 1/4" drive uses the same technology (dual pawl) as the 80T 3/8" drive, so calling it Dual 80 TECHNOLOGY is a truthful statement.

It’s shamefully deceptive marketing from Snapon, clearly intended to mislead the consumer into believing the 1/4” ratchets have 80 teeth like the larger drive sizes. “Accurate marketing” would be calling it “dual pawl”, “dual 72”, or something like that.

Referring to a 72T ratchet as “dual 80” is misleading, and it’s disappointing to see Snapon resorting to such deceitful behavior.

 

[M635_Guy]

No, I think they actually raised the prices. Figure that one out

I was in the NAPA closest to my house a couple weeks ago, and was really surprised how "retail" the inside was vs. the last time I'd been there. Guess they have to pay for all that somehow...

 

[Steel_Rain]

I was in the NAPA closest to my house a couple weeks ago, and was really surprised how "retail" the inside was vs. the last time I'd been there. Guess they have to pay for all that somehow...

The nearest NAPA store in my neck of the woods hasn't seen a renovation since the 80's. It smells like cancer and the people that work there are some mean sons of *****. None of that really bothers me, but the last time I was there I did notice they moved a lot of things around to present the products in a better light.

 

[liliysdad]

The only that keeps NAPA alive around here are government accounts.

 

[CoThG]

Yes, thank you for proving my point. They use the same nomenclature for the 72 tooth 1/4” ratchet as their 80 tooth 3/8” and 1/2” drive ratchets. All are referred in the same way - Dual 80® Technology ratchets.



It’s shamefully deceptive marketing from Snapon, clearly intended to mislead the consumer into believing the 1/4” ratchets have 80 teeth like the larger drive sizes. “Accurate marketing” would be calling it “dual pawl”, “dual 72”, or something like that.

Referring to a 72T ratchet as “dual 80” is misleading, and it’s disappointing to see Snapon resorting to such deceitful behavior.

I know my tools. I don't need a marketing campaign to know that the SO 1/4" is 72T.

 

[mreisner]

I know my tools. I don't need a marketing campaign to know that the SO 1/4" is 72T.

It clearly says in the description in flyers on the website etc, 72 tooth. The word technology makes it obvious that their model after each other but not necessarily the same. One of the very best ever made but people will always find a way to ***** about it.
Literally 8 words in.

 

[L.Cheapo]

I was in the NAPA closest to my house a couple weeks ago, and was really surprised how "retail" the inside was vs. the last time I'd been there. Guess they have to pay for all that somehow...

I havent been in a Napa in decades. We had a bunch of independently owned Napas around. Then some assclown appeared, bought them all, and merged them into one company. A couple years later, he decided to become a Carquest. So now we have more Advance and Carquest stores than you can complain about and only one Napa, but its too far away to bother.

 

[AEAdam]

Yes, thank you for proving my point. They use the same nomenclature for the 72 tooth 1/4” ratchet as their 80 tooth 3/8” and 1/2” drive ratchets. All are referred in the same way - Dual 80® Technology ratchets.



It’s shamefully deceptive marketing from Snapon, clearly intended to mislead the consumer into believing the 1/4” ratchets have 80 teeth like the larger drive sizes. “Accurate marketing” would be calling it “dual pawl”, “dual 72”, or something like that.

Referring to a 72T ratchet as “dual 80” is misleading, and it’s disappointing to see Snapon resorting to such deceitful behavior.

I think dual 80 was a game changer, and not just for snap on ratchets. The patent is called ”dual pawl mechanism….”, tho it wasn’t the first dual pawl.

The first ratchets to use the patent were 3/8” and hit the market by storm. 1/2” and 1/4” versions were introduced later and both had the exact same attributes the 3/8” dr “dual 80” ratchets had, so you can understand why snap on would reference their popular new design.

Dual 80 was special, but not for the number of teeth in the head. I doubt Snap on engineering cared much about the difference between 72, 80, 88, or even 90 teeth. Dual 80 was special not for the 80 but the dual. They were really the first ratchets made with low ratchet angle, high tooth count, low back drag, and mechanisms stronger than the square drive.

Pretty sure the new 100 tooth ratchets are based on the “dual 80” patent. Snap on is calling those ratchets “cynergy”. Most of us will probably recognize Cynergy as the new 100 tooth ratchets. At some point, they will probably make cynergy 1/4” drive ratchets, which likely won’t have 100 teeth.

Speaking of patents, the dual pawl patent doesn’t expire until 2028. Really not sure how Icon is getting away with such blatant IP theft. Snap on filed patents in the US, UK, CAN, AUS, & CHINA.

 

[Drunkonunleaded]

I went to Napa today, first time in at least a year, and they rearranged the front of the store. They now have some Carlyle tools on display in the front, which they've never had before. While I'm sure they're fine for someone off the street that needs a socket or single wrench today, they didn't exactly look inspiring; and that's being generous.

And despite this, the “new” line is outselling the old one per some of my contacts at NAPA. People love the green apparently…

 

[51dueller]

Speaking of patents, the dual pawl patent doesn’t expire until 2028. Really not sure how Icon is getting away with such blatant IP theft. Snap on filed patents in the US, UK, CAN, AUS, & CHINA.

If you were paying attention, the Icon is a single pawl ratchet that just has the same size internal head bore.

Dual pawl technology isn't unique to Snap on. Gearwrench 120 ratchets, Husky 144 tooth and some Wright have dual pawl mechanisms. Pretty sure Craftsman and SK even had models. There are different ways to do it without violating patents.

 

[AEAdam]

If you were paying attention, the Icon is a single pawl ratchet that just has the same size internal head bore.

No obviously not paying attention. I knew you could put snap on guts inside an icon body and assumed they were similar. Just googled it and see I was wrong.

 

[Steve_P]

And despite this, the “new” line is outselling the old one per some of my contacts at NAPA. People love the green apparently…

In the case of my store, it would be hard to sell less Carlyle now as they had nothing by Carlyle on display before this. So, 99% of their walk in customers never knew they existed. 'Oh, we actually need to SHOW that we have tools to sell in order to sell them??? I'm shocked!" I've said this before, and I understand that there is a shoplifting issue, as there has been since the first retail store opened centuries ago, but my store didn't even have Carlyle on display behind the counter before this visit. At least put socket and wrench racks up behind the counter like it was 1975 again. Then someone that comes in for an oil filter will realize "they have tools" when they need a 32mm axle socket at some point and come back for something that costs $30+ with a 400% markup. My store is locally owned, so at least someone woke up. And the tools are out in the shelf area and not behind the counter.

 

[KnurledNut]

Man guys, this thread really ran off the rails...

 

[neophyte]

I think dual 80 was a game changer, and not just for snap on ratchets. The patent is called ”dual pawl mechanism….”, tho it wasn’t the first dual pawl.

The first ratchets to use the patent were 3/8” and hit the market by storm. 1/2” and 1/4” versions were introduced later and both had the exact same attributes the 3/8” dr “dual 80” ratchets had, so you can understand why snap on would reference their popular new design.

Dual 80 was special, but not for the number of teeth in the head. I doubt Snap on engineering cared much about the difference between 72, 80, 88, or even 90 teeth. Dual 80 was special not for the 80 but the dual. They were really the first ratchets made with low ratchet angle, high tooth count, low back drag, and mechanisms stronger than the square drive.

Pretty sure the new 100 tooth ratchets are based on the “dual 80” patent. Snap on is calling those ratchets “cynergy”. Most of us will probably recognize Cynergy as the new 100 tooth ratchets. At some point, they will probably make cynergy 1/4” drive ratchets, which likely won’t have 100 teeth.

Speaking of patents, the dual pawl patent doesn’t expire until 2028. Really not sure how Icon is getting away with such blatant IP theft. Snap on filed patents in the US, UK, CAN, AUS, & CHINA.

There was an attempt to get rid of the US Patent office at one point, because;
“everything that could be invented had been”.

That obviously wasn’t true, but most mechanical mechanisms nowadays are splitting hairs, and numerous patents are just slight variations on existing technologies, and routinely wind up with patents, simply by not citing existing technology, sometimes existing technology that already has had patents applied for, if not rejected as already existing.
The way to get a Patent declared invalid in many cases is to come out with a product that allegedly “violates” that patent, and then yo tell the patent holder to take you to court once the patent holder sends you notice of the Patent violation.
You can also tell the patent holder that you think their patent is not valid and why, and see if they take you to court, or back off.
Harbor Freight has deep enough pockets to pay court costs and legal costs if they want to challenge a Snap-On Patent.
That is what HF did with the Slip Joint pliers.
Snap-On backed off with the pliers.

 

[1Bad55Chevy]

They sell replacement pieces for the set. Supposedly you have to upload a receipt showing you actually bought the set. However, I recently replaced a lost wrench and did not have to show any proof of purchase - just dropped it in the cart, checked out, and it showed up in the mail.

Did you log into the website? If you enter your phone number in the site it looks up the purchase history linked to that number automatically. It should never prompt you for a receipt!

 

[pfbz]

When I use quick release versions of Snap On ratchets, the sockets don't actually snap on to the ratchet head... I feel misled.

 

[pfbz]

...and on the patent side....

Snap On's core patents for their dual pawl design expired long ago... Of course they continue to file new patents, but those are usually minor enhancements that can be worked around. That is why companies like Icon can produce a ratchet so close to the dual 80 without issue.

Same exact reason Snap On can produce and sell "Wobble Plus" extensions that were originally protected by Ko-ken's now expired 'wobble-fix' patent.

All tool companies do it.

 

[1Bad55Chevy]

Man guys, this thread really ran off the rails...

Ya the SO fan boys showed up and started talking about themselves.

 

[CoThG]

Ya the SO fan boys showed up and started talking about themselves.

 

[AEAdam]

...and on the patent side....

Snap On's core patents for their dual pawl design expired long ago... Of course they continue to file new patents, but those are usually minor enhancements that can be worked around. That is why companies like Icon can produce a ratchet so close to the dual 80 without issue.

Same exact reason Snap On can produce and sell "Wobble Plus" extensions that were originally protected by Ko-ken's now expired 'wobble-fix' patent.

All tool companies do it.

The dual pawl patent doesn’t expire until 2028. Read it yesterday. And no, not all tool companies do it. Someone here found that Snap on licensed the Koken wobble plus. I think they also licensed the ratcheting box wrench design until they designed their own version. US companies do THIS all the time. They pay to use others’ IP.

US courts protect US IP. They also punish large US companies severely for stealing smaller companies IP. I’ve been involved in this at work.

 

[Hakeem]

I think dual 80 was a game changer, and not just for snap on ratchets. The patent is called ”dual pawl mechanism….”, tho it wasn’t the first dual pawl.

The first ratchets to use the patent were 3/8” and hit the market by storm. 1/2” and 1/4” versions were introduced later and both had the exact same attributes the 3/8” dr “dual 80” ratchets had, so you can understand why snap on would reference their popular new design.

Dual 80 was special, but not for the number of teeth in the head. I doubt Snap on engineering cared much about the difference between 72, 80, 88, or even 90 teeth. Dual 80 was special not for the 80 but the dual. They were really the first ratchets made with low ratchet angle, high tooth count, low back drag, and mechanisms stronger than the square drive.

Pretty sure the new 100 tooth ratchets are based on the “dual 80” patent. Snap on is calling those ratchets “cynergy”. Most of us will probably recognize Cynergy as the new 100 tooth ratchets. At some point, they will probably make cynergy 1/4” drive ratchets, which likely won’t have 100 teeth.

Speaking of patents, the dual pawl patent doesn’t expire until 2028. Really not sure how Icon is getting away with such blatant IP theft. Snap on filed patents in the US, UK, CAN, AUS, & CHINA.

I appreciate the thoughtful, insightful post, as always.

I agree that the dual 80 concept is special for more than just the number of the teeth but I still think they picked the name to highlight the number of ratcheting teeth. They’re not the only ones: Matco Eighty8, Gearwrench 120XP, etc. The nuance of the dual pawl design is harder to convey than “more tooth count=more better”

That said, do I think it’s a big deal to call a 72t ratchet “dual80”? Of course not. I still think it’s slightly misleading. You, and others, may not—and that’s ok. We’ll agree to disagree.

 

[AEAdam]

I appreciate the thoughtful, insightful post, as always.

I agree that the dual 80 concept is special for more than just the number of the teeth but I still think they picked the name to highlight the number of ratcheting teeth. They’re not the only ones: Matco Eighty8, Gearwrench 120XP, etc. The nuance of the dual pawl design is harder to convey than “more tooth count=more better”

That said, do I think it’s a big deal to call a 72t ratchet “dual80”? Of course not. I still think it’s slightly misleading. You, and others, may not—and that’s ok. We’ll agree to disagree.

Yeah appreciate that. I’m not sure about this but I get the sense all the tooth forward marketing started AFTER dual 80. I never shopped for ratchets based on tooth count. Round head ratchets were always fine toothed and weak. Pear heads were as lasts coarser and strong. There was no real good choice for fine toothed and strong before dual80. It was just a physics thing,

Snap on had 39 and maybe 49 toothed round headed ratchets. They had a TM860 with 60 teeth I never knew much about and still don’t hear discussed much. I don’t think Koken brags about their tooth counts.

Point is, viewed post Dual80, tooth counts are something I think people think about and maybe shop for. So for snap on, it’s likely “dual80” was the name of the mechanism and they didn’t think twice about the 10% fewer teeth in the small ratchets.

I think it’s interesting, maybe revealing that they chose not to use 100 in the marketing for the Cynergy ratchets.

 

[CoThG]

Yeah appreciate that. I’m not sure about this but I get the sense all the tooth forward marketing started AFTER dual 80. I never shopped for ratchets based on tooth count. Round head ratchets were always fine toothed and weak. Pear heads were as lasts coarser and strong. There was no real good choice for fine toothed and strong before dual80. It was just a physics thing,

Snap on had 39 and maybe 49 toothed round headed ratchets. They had a TM860 with 60 teeth I never knew much about and still don’t hear discussed much. I don’t think Koken brags about their tooth counts.

Point is, viewed post Dual80, tooth counts are something I think people think about and maybe shop for. So for snap on, it’s likely “dual80” was the name of the mechanism and they didn’t think twice about the 10% fewer teeth in the small ratchets.

I think it’s interesting, maybe revealing that they chose not to use 100 in the marketing for the Cynergy ratchets.

From my perspective, it seems that all the "high tooth count must be better" BS is marketed for the non-professional, home user who's naive enough to buy into the BS. A pro, or educated non-pro user knows that a high tooth count doesn't factor into what goes into a quality ratchet. I think SO is making a huge mistake with the Cynergy line of ratchets. I think their marketing department is forcing them to do "something" to keep up with the perceived tooth count arms race. Cynergy is a poorly designed and overly complicated, IMO.

Koken Z series is "only" 72T and is one of the best ratchets on the market. And for full disclosure in case anyone thinks I'm a SO fanboy, I think their 100T Cynergy is a POS and I'll never purchase one with their present design, or band aid re-design fix.

 

[M635_Guy]

There was an attempt to get rid of the US Patent office at one point, because;
“everything that could be invented had been”.

That obviously wasn’t true, but most mechanical mechanisms nowadays are splitting hairs, and numerous patents are just slight variations on existing technologies, and routinely wind up with patents, simply by not citing existing technology, sometimes existing technology that already has had patents applied for, if not rejected as already existing.
The way to get a Patent declared invalid in many cases is to come out with a product that allegedly “violates” that patent, and then yo tell the patent holder to take you to court once the patent holder sends you notice of the Patent violation.
You can also tell the patent holder that you think their patent is not valid and why, and see if they take you to court, or back off.
Harbor Freight has deep enough pockets to pay court costs and legal costs if they want to challenge a Snap-On Patent.
That is what HF did with the Slip Joint pliers.
Snap-On backed off with the pliers.

I don't think you understand that system nearly as well as you think.

There are lots of derivative patents. Knipex was standing on top of any number of them for their pliers wrench, but their implementation was unique enough that it was still able to be a patent of its own, despite many previous examples of 'prior art' (e.g. similar designs/patents).

A patent isn't invalid if a violating product isn't challenged - it just becomes public domain if the owner doesn't defend it. And there are several variations that over-generalizes that I've had too much Irish whiskey tonight to bother with.

Outside of a licensing discussion gone awry, I doubt many companies are proactively notifying a patent holder the way you're describing. There are ways to contest a patent, but it mainly winds up in court - one that specializes in IP disputes.

Harbor Freight almost certainly has an IP review board that ensures they're not going to wind up at the pointy end of a patent lawsuit. I'd guess SO's patent on slip joint is either so specific that it's easy to design around or so broad it is unenforceable - in this case probably the former. They didn't 'back off' - they were never "on".

I think Snap On uses patents/IP as marketing to some degree. It's 100% what happened with the jack - one or more executives thinks having a patent is **** and deludes themselves into believing any patent is a shield. But the operative patent on the jack was a friggin' design patent (look and feel) and probably the exec(s) didn't know what that was and demanded that the company run to court. They embarrassed themselves in court.

It's true that sometimes a legit patent isn't defended (your 'backed off' thing I guess). I've told the story here more than once about a I product I had the had multiple patents and a trademark that were being infringed on and the guidance from the legal team was it was too expensive to pursue. Still mad about that, but I do not think that's what's going on here. IMHO HF isn't counting on SO not to sue - they know where the legal lines are and mainly they don't cross them. In the case of the jack, SO made a really stupid mistake.

As for the G2 being able to take the SO guts - that's only sorta true. Yeah they fit, but the SO design lacks the shoulder of the Icon wheel, so when SO guts are in there there's a cavity that should be occupied by part of the geared wheel in the Icon internals. I have no idea whether swapped mechanisms are working well in the G2 ratchets - hard to think so - but none of that proves very much IMHO. It's not a copy or derivative design outside of the physical cavity...sorta.

 

[M635_Guy]

From my perspective, it seems that all the "high tooth count must be better" BS is marketed for the non-professional, home user who's naive enough to buy into the BS. A pro, or educated non-pro user knows that a high tooth count doesn't factor into what goes into a quality ratchet. I think SO is making a huge mistake with the Cynergy line of ratchets. I think their marketing department is forcing them to do "something" to keep up with the perceived tooth count arms race. Cynergy is a poorly designed and overly complicated, IMO.

Koken Z series is "only" 72T and is one of the best ratchets on the market. And for full disclosure in case anyone thinks I'm a SO fanboy, I think their 100T Cynergy is a POS and I'll never purchase one with their present design, or band aid re-design fix.

There's a sweet spot for sure - 72-90 teeth seems to be it for me. At some point I think too many teeth create backdrag issues (IMHO). The Dual-80 mechanism (which I understand Snap On didn't invent but acquired when they bought Bahco) was a great balance. Personally I hate the feel of the GW 120XP mechanism - it feels clicky and high in backdrag to me, but some love it. The Husky 144 was retail marketing and that's about it.

I think if there had been any productive/experiential benefit to more teeth, Ko-ken would have incorporated it into their design.

 

[Hakeem]

I think it’s interesting, maybe revealing that they chose not to use 100 in the marketing for the Cynergy ratchets.

Well, the number 100 isn’t explicitly featured in the name of the ratchet like with the dual80, but they have it listed as the “Cynergy 100tooth ratchet” and the very first feature listed is the 100t ratchet mechanism. To me, the primary advantage of the Cynergy ratchet is the lower profile, but that’s much less **** than “more teeth!!!”



Even in their promotions, the increased tooth count seems to be the first thing they mention:



“More teeth = better” is simple and easy to convey, even if it’s not really true.

 

[AEAdam]

Well, the number 100 isn’t explicitly featured in the name of the ratchet like with the dual80, but they have it listed as the “Cynergy 100tooth ratchet” and the very first feature listed is the 100t ratchet mechanism. To me, the primary advantage of the Cynergy ratchet is the lower profile, but that’s much less **** than “more teeth!!!”



Even in their promotions, the increased tooth count seems to be the first thing they mention:



“More teeth = better” is simple and easy to convey, even if it’s not really true.

Glad we’re having this conversation.

Between friends, I’m a little sensitive about how defensive some of this sounds with respect to Snap on. “Oh, they are the strongest, have the most teeth”. Well, not anymore. “Oh but it’s not about strength or number of teeth. It’s the OTHER stuff that makes Snap on superior. OTHER stuff no one talks about”. Gotcha. It sounds like the messaging is changing based on the competition improving by leaps and bounds.


Hey, I guess if Snap on were really head and shoulders above all their competitors, there wouldn’t be much to talk about on GJ.

My take, regardless of how it sounds, tools are pretty personal and details matter. Wrenches, ratchets, screwdrivers, maybe hammers are especially personal tools. I’ve made (woodworking) tools. Maybe I’m extra sensitive about how I feel about tools. Dropped my 8yr old Bosch RO sander yesterday and broke it. Not so easy for me to replace that thing. I’ve used the hell out of it. Think I’m going to Lowe’s to buy the exact same model.

Bought the Icon 1/4” roto yesterday morning for some Bobcat work. Got it home, took it apart (as you do), and found it was well greased. First day with it, I liked the form factor. Back drag was heavier than my 3/8” FHLF80. Louder clicks. Hoping it wears in. No shade on the Icon, just an example of how sensitive I think a lot of us are to our tools, which may help explain the passion we sometimes see here.

 

[1Bad55Chevy]

I thought this thread was about Icon G2 wrenches.......

Yall guys need a "everything SO thread "

 

[CoThG]

I thought this thread was about Icon G2 wrenches.......

Yall guys need a "everything SO thread "

 

[1Bad55Chevy]

You're absolutely right I cant afford them...

I own a BHPH car dealership I can promise you I put more money on the streets every month in car loans then the cost of your SO tools. This is also coming from the guy who buys used SO tools.

 

[Bigblue&Goldie]

I love this place; we have a guy attempting to flex wealth over a drawer of ratchets, while another guy posting in the same thread literally drives to Harbor Freight in his Ferrari!

 

[CoThG]

You're absolutely right I cant afford them...

I own a BHPH car dealership I can promise you I put more money on the streets every month in car loans then the cost of your SO tools. This is also coming from the guy who buys used SO tools.

 

[mngundog]

I love this place; we have a guy attempting to flex wealth over a drawer of ratchets, while another guy posting in the same thread literally drives to Harbor Freight in his Ferrari!

That drawer full of ratchets that's only use is from the guy "exercising" them? It's truly hilarious, reminds me of a Pez dispenser collection.

 

[CoThG]

That drawer full of ratchets that's only use is from the guy "exercising" them? It's truly hilarious, reminds me of a Pez dispenser collection.

I do more than "exercise" them. I put them "in harms way" I used my FHLLX80O to change the oil in my wife's car. The extra long handle length came in handy to loosen that drain plug and the extra long length made sure the drain plug was nice and tight.

 

[T45]

I used my FHLLX80O to change the oil...

not "o" but ...

Snap-on Store

shop.snapon.com

 

[1Bad55Chevy]

I love this place; we have a guy attempting to flex wealth over a drawer of ratchets, while another guy posting in the same thread literally drives to Harbor Freight in his Ferrari!

Naw man, I am broke right now. My kid has a ton of medical bills monthly that are absolutely devastating. I am hoping next year his diagnosis verbiage changes and I can get insurance to cover it.

I do buy HF and GW because the SO rep wont stop at my shop. The tool reps in my area wont stop unless I have 3 techs. You buy those tools for convenience and service no reason to biy them if you are not receiving any of it.

 

[CoThG]

not "o" but ...

Snap-on Store

shop.snapon.com

Toyota drain plugs on all of my vehicles are 14mm. And the ratchet part number is correct. It's a Zero-Oh.

 

[CoThG]

Naw man, I am broke right now. My kid has a ton of medical bills monthly that are absolutely devastating. I am hoping next year his diagnosis verbiage changes and I can get insurance to cover it.

I do buy HF and GW because the SO rep wont stop at my shop. The tool reps in my area wont stop unless I have 3 techs. You buy those tools for convenience and service no reason to biy them if you are not receiving any of it.

Not true at all. I buy them for the quality, the prestige and pride of ownership knowing you have the best. It's an added bonus that my SO dealer is terrific.

 

[liliysdad]

Naw man, I am broke right now. My kid has a ton of medical bills monthly that are absolutely devastating. I am hoping next year his diagnosis verbiage changes and I can get insurance to cover it.

I do buy HF and GW because the SO rep wont stop at my shop. The tool reps in my area wont stop unless I have 3 techs. You buy those tools for convenience and service no reason to biy them if you are not receiving any of it.

Not true at all. I buy them for the quality, the prestige and pride of ownership knowing you have the best. It's an added bonus that my SO dealer is terrific.

I buy em used because I like em. I don’t want import tools if I can keep from it, an I don’t want to pay truck prices if I can keep from it.

I cannot quantity how little I give a **** about “prestige.” I like what I like and I’m willing to work my *** off to get what I want at the price I want to pay.