Dented water main line on street side

[branimal]

It's not leaking…. yet. The repair sleeve was already there. This is in the areaway (the outside entrance to the basement). My main cutoff is inside the house.

I'm in an old brooklyn rowhouse and there is no street cutoff on the sidewalk or the street. The cutoff is a "tap" buried 4' under the street level.

I found a guy who has a freeze cuff machine. Plan is to freeze the line. Cut out the bad section. And replace with Type k malleable copper 1". Connections will be made with 2 Pack joint unions.

PAck joint union also know as dress couplings.

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Legend-Valve-313-215NL-1-Pack-Joint-CTS-Union-T-4301NL-No-Lead-Bronze

Anyone have experience fixing a main with a freeze machine?

 

[PCustoms]

If it's on the street side are you supposed to be fixing it, or should you call the utility?

 

[BobnCO]

I believe he simply means outside the house “toward” the street. Normally there would be a “curb stop” however and “the city” would be responsible on the “street side”of that. Yes I have watched a freeze machine work, it did!

 

[MovingAlong]

Had never heard of such a thing before but can see how it would be amazing! Be sure to share some action pics!!

 

[manwithtools]

Calling @metaldad

IIRC he has some very relative experience with this technology.

 

[mike93lx]

Are you adding an accessible shutoff while in there?

I see you mention a main cutoff, but should you add one where the pipe enters the house?

 

[Nobody-named-Olli]

Make sure “the guy” knows what he is doing. Shut-off valve inside building needs to be in off position, absolutely no flow during freezing. And these freeze plugs still can fail - so know where the nearest shut-off is, make sure it is accessible and functional! Pipe needs to be completely filled with water.

Unit with closed circuit for refrigerant is safest in a situation like yours.

If using CO2 for freezing, remember it is “heavier” than air and will replace air. Not recommended at all for your situation!

Kind regards,
Olli

 

[cgrutt]

Learn something new everyday that's pretty cool. Make sure "your guy" has liability insurance and its up to date. I'd also make sure he's licensed and has whatever permits may be required. Hopefully all goes smoothly but if it goes south can't imagine costs if NYC gets involved. Good luck.

 

[Codyboy]

Seems like there would be a shutoff at the meter.
And if the meter is in the basement and that's the shutoff you're talking about, then is that pipe your responsibility? Seems it wouldn't be but who knows?
If it wasn't leaking why even dig it up?

 

[mike93lx]

then is that pipe your responsibility

A lot of his posts are doing work under the radar. I'm guessing a call to the city is what he wants to avoid

 

[Bert_]

The line going out to the street is always customer responsibility, at least around here.

Make sure the pipe is supported well an both sides of the coupling. I have seen lines push out of them.

 

[larry4406]

I’m guessing the water service got damaged during demo of the basement slab he’s replacing.

Water authority here as a machine that literally pinches the copper line flat to pinch it off and allow downstream repair.

Then they put a different die in the machine which undoes the pinch and restores it to a hex shape restoring flow.

I don’t know the name of the machine but it’s impressive.

I’ve seen 2 types. One was hand pump hydraulic while other was battery pack type power.

They use this when they can’t easily isolate the water line.

 

[Codyboy]

I’m guessing the water service got damaged during demo of the basement slab he’s replacing.

Water authority here as a machine that literally pinches the copper line flat to pinch it off and allow downstream repair.

Then they put a different die in the machine which undoes the pinch and restores it to a hex shape restoring flow.

I don’t know the name of the machine but it’s impressive.

I’ve seen 2 types. One was hand pump hydraulic while other was battery pack type power.

They use this when they can’t easily isolate the water line.

I've seen poly pinched off, but not copper. How would that even work?

 

[larry4406]

I've seen poly pinched off, but not copper. How would that even work?

Black magic.

Honestly I have no idea how it works but it does!

Only seen it a few times at the day job and then only for emergency repairs when a water service lateral was hit between the main and the shutoff valve.

 

[branimal]

• Damage is on the street side of my house main cut off. Just a few feet outside my house
• Accessible shut off - Ordered one from supplyhouse. I'm might install it inside the house but before the meter. Initially I thought about putting it in an access box underneath the concrete of the basement landing. I think the freeze risk is too high. The access box will allow the cold ambient air to freeze the pipe i think.
• Good advice on not trying to use a CO2. I didn't ask the guy what type of machine he has. Just checked my local tool rental place. They have the Ridgid SF2500. Can handle up to 2 1/2" pipe.
• After pipe is repaired and insulated, I'm backfilling the trench with sand. Will have proper support.
• I've heard the Pinch machine is the industry standard for mains. No one I've reached out to has one.
• Prices i've been quoted:
  • $6200 replace entire copper line from street to house shutoff, with curb valve
  • replace small section $3500-5000

 

[Codyboy]

https://www.ferguson.com/product/wh...mHE7BIEPmLhDdecDCKSkUWbpFO2N7dBWbB1YXscJGrkPn

Pretty neat.
But before I bought that I'd call the water company and tell them I need a temporary disconnect to make repairs.

 

[johnre]

I've seen poly pinched off, but not copper. How would that even work?

The two halves of the copper tube essentially cold-weld into one, and the pipe separates. You do have to protect the sharp edge from hitting anything, as it will leak if damaged. Usually you put some heat shrink over it for this.

I've done this, but not for water pipes - it was to disconnect the vacuum pump attachment for a power traveling wave amplifier. It's impressive to see work and be vacuum tight.

 

[nicks78camaro]

Guessing the town will bill you for tear up/redo of the street asphalt to shut the water off/on?

 

[branimal]

Black magic.

Honestly I have no idea how it works but it does!

Only seen it a few times at the day job and then only for emergency repairs when a water service lateral was hit between the main and the shutoff valve.

Link to said black magic

Seems somewhat catastrophic to the pipe. Maybe malleable copper like my pipe would re-round a bit better.

 

[larry4406]

The two halves of the copper tube essentially cold-weld into one, and the pipe separates. You do have to protect the sharp edge from hitting anything, as it will leak if damaged. Usually you put some heat shrink over it for this.

I've done this, but not for water pipes - it was to disconnect the vacuum pump attachment for a power traveling wave amplifier. It's impressive to see work and be vacuum tight.

The pinch device I have seen in use do not weld nor separate.

It is literally collapsed flat over a pipe length of 1-2”. Then later via the hex die, the pinched flat section is converted to a hex cross section (not circular) and flow is restored.

Never a breach to the perimeter pressure boundary.

 

[branimal]

Guessing the town will bill you for tear up/redo of the street asphalt to shut the water off/on?

Of course. And that's if my tap is even functional. Many are corroded FWIR. Then they would use a pinch or freeze machine I guess.

 

[larry4406]

Link to said black magic

Seems somewhat catastrophic to the pipe. Maybe malleable copper like my pipe would re-round a bit better.

That’s not what our water authority has.

 

[johnre]

The pinch device I have seen in use do not weld nor separate.

I realized that after I posted. For the power traveling wave amplifier, there is no future need to reattach to the vacuum pump, and the two halves are parted, leaving a knife edge.

 

[mike93lx]

That’s not what our water authority has.

I'm not picturing how a die can reshape a crimped pipe back to a hex

 

[larry4406]

I'm not picturing how a die can reshape a crimped pipe back to a hex

Nor I Mike but their machine does it.

It’s a bad scene when water is gushing into the hole and the water authority is emergency dispatched. Labors, pumps, shovels, attitudes, etc. Then bam it’s shutoff, repaired (typically cut out damaged section, add couplings, sweat in place, then uncrimp). Backfill.

 

[PCustoms]

Nor I Mike but their machine does it.

It’s a bad scene when water is gushing into the hole and the water authority is emergency dispatched. Labors, pumps, shovels, attitudes, etc. Then bam it’s shutoff, repaired (typically cut out damaged section, add couplings, sweat in place, then uncrimp). Backfill.

Is it "hex" or just not perfectly round after trying to un-squash the crimped section?

 

[mm08822]

Have a back-up plan in-case Mr. Freeze gets foiled.

I.E. - water company on notice, emergency # / contacts, pump, minimal stuff in basement to get wet/ruined, etc.
(Basically, plan for the OH **** moment.)

 

[Codyboy]

Is it "hex" or just not perfectly round after trying to un-squash the crimped section?

Hex would be a very loose term for it. At least it would be with this Reed tool.
Skip to 1:45

eta for bad link

 

[PCustoms]

Hex would be a very loose term for it. At least it would be with this Reed tool.
Skip to 1:45

eta for bad link

Edit:

Question was directed at Larry....

 

[larry4406]

Is it "hex" or just not perfectly round after trying to un-squash the crimped section?

Edit:

Question was directed at Larry....

The ones I have seen done were a hex in final shape. Not that partially mangled “rebounding” as shown in that video.

 

[WildBill]

My brother has one of the CO2 freeze setups and we used it all over an apartment building remodel, was awesome. For some reason none of the plumbers around here have them, they were super jealous of it. We also did a couple of broken buried pipes in a trailer court, about six foot down. Was amazing for that as well. Super fast and easy to use, makes a cool ice donut around the pipe. I think this is the one he has, cost about $800 with a tank.

General Wire CST2 Cold-Shot Pipe Freeze Kit - Pipe Fittings - Amazon.com

General Wire CST2 Cold-Shot Pipe Freeze Kit - Pipe Fittings - Amazon.com

www.amazon.com

 

[mike93lx]

The ones I have seen done were a hex in final shape. Not that partially mangled “rebounding” as shown in that video.

We are going to need to have you mess up a water line and shoot video of the repair now.

You owe it to us

 

[Bert_]

I'd be tempted to have a dresser fitting with a valve attached sitting there ready to go.

On the off chance that the frozen section doesn't hold, you could slap on the valve and then be able to shut it off.

 

[larry4406]

We are going to need to have you mess up a water line and shoot video of the repair now.

You owe it to us

Got it!

Friday before a long weekend. Say 3:48 pm…..

 

[carlaisle]

Unless I was about to pour concrete over that I would leave it alone. You could get lucky and kick the bucket before that pipe springs a leak.

 

[WildBill]

replace small section $3500-5000

Thats crazy expensive for an easy to get to exposed pipe, I need to become a real plumber instead of just playing one on tv.

 

[PCustoms]

Got it!

Friday before a long weekend. Say 3:48 pm…..

Memorial Day is in a few weeks...

 

[mike93lx]

replace small section $3500-5000

Thats crazy expensive for an easy to get to exposed pipe, I need to become a real plumber instead of just playing one on tv.

I don't want to know what the insurance costs, especially after one **** up

 

[gizardlizard]

Can you use a jet sweat? I use one at work on 3/4” copper frequently and it holds back line pressure. I’ve cut copper under pressure, used the jet sweat and then added a full port valve.

 

[545_days]

That dent probably has less pressure drop that a valve. If you are not experiencing low water pressure I would bury it in sand and leave it alone.

I so l see no benefit to repairing it if it is not leaking.

FWIW, I spent my first 18 years in industry performing hydraulic calculations and sizing pipe and valves for chemical, refinery, and power plant projects. Disclaimer: I'm not your engineer, I am not a New York PE, and I have not inspected the damage to this particular pipe, so YMMV.