Dented water main line on street side

[Renegade1LI]

I have the Ridgid SF2500 superfreeze, as long as there’s no flow it works great. Takes a little practice to form the ice plugs but once formed they hold well. Just don’t shut it off till you’re done, i usually drill an 1/8” hole to verify no flow. The key is cleaning the pipe and securing the clamps. Keep spraying the connections with a water bottle to form the ice plug. I practiced on a straight piece of 1” copper connected to the hose before i did a line in service.

 

[metaldad]

Calling @metaldad

IIRC he has some very relative experience with this technology.

technology?
we used liqwid nitrogen to freeze lines. freeze guy biggest expense was insurance.
i have no experience with the ridgid freezer, the repair coupling in the op original post, looks like a lead line to me, kinking copper lines and reforming them., no city shutoff ..........
ahhhhhhhh, no comment

 

[The Cobbler]

The line going out to the street is always customer responsibility, at least around here.

here we are responsible to the curb stop, which is roughly at the property line . city is responsible for the curbstop & everything to the main

Water authority here as a machine that literally pinches the copper line flat to pinch it off and allow downstream repair.

never seen that nor can I believe it a widely used machine. even copper work hardens as it ages and this is would be a recipe for trouble.
Now I do know they can freeze the lines & work on them, but if there's a curbs stop, that's the best approach in my opinion

 

[Renegade1LI]

• Damage is on the street side of my house main cut off. Just a few feet outside my house
• Accessible shut off - Ordered one from supplyhouse. I'm might install it inside the house but before the meter. Initially I thought about putting it in an access box underneath the concrete of the basement landing. I think the freeze risk is too high. The access box will allow the cold ambient air to freeze the pipe i think.
• Good advice on not trying to use a CO2. I didn't ask the guy what type of machine he has. Just checked my local tool rental place. They have the Ridgid SF2500. Can handle up to 2 1/2" pipe.
• After pipe is repaired and insulated, I'm backfilling the trench with sand. Will have proper support.
• I've heard the Pinch machine is the industry standard for mains. No one I've reached out to has one.
• Prices i've been quoted:
  • $6200 replace entire copper line from street to house shutoff, with curb valve
  • replace small section $3500-5000

I've done hundreds of repairs with this machine, works great but you have to be patient. If you rent it I suggest doing some practice on a section of pipe attached to a hose with a valve on the end. When you think it's good open the valve to check, a clean tight connection is key & keep spraying water on it till it's about the size of a baseball.

 

[HoosierMark]

If this were me I would go out close to the street and install a shut off valve in the line there. Then I can repair the dent and anything else that happens easily in the future. In other words do an upgrade. The repair is almost all the same except you are digging one more hole.

 

[Renegade1LI]

If this were me I would go out close to the street and install a shut off valve in the line there. Then I can repair the dent and anything else that happens easily in the future. In other words do an upgrade. The repair is almost all the same except you are digging one more hole.

Not so easy to put a shovel in the ground in nyc.

 

[PCustoms]

Not so easy to put a shovel in the ground in nyc when you're doing everything without a permit

FIFY

 

[mike93lx]

If this were me I would go out close to the street and install a shut off valve in the line there. Then I can repair the dent and anything else that happens easily in the future. In other words do an upgrade. The repair is almost all the same except you are digging one more hole.

That will be a very expensive shutoff

 

[rlitman]

Why does anyone freeze anymore when these are on the market:

EasyFit Isolator USA

EasyFit Isolator is a unique and permanent solution for isolating live water lines without an existing shutoff valve. No more pipe freezing or pipe plugging needed!

easyfitisolator.us

 

[Renegade1LI]

FIFY

Yes i should've added that, I don't do any work without a permit. People don't realize a permit is a cya, i want it inspected and signed off, now i have proof of was done by code.

 

[WildBill]

Why does anyone freeze anymore when these are on the market:

EasyFit Isolator USA

EasyFit Isolator is a unique and permanent solution for isolating live water lines without an existing shutoff valve. No more pipe freezing or pipe plugging needed!

easyfitisolator.us

We freeze a lot during remodels where we are installing new fixtures, dozens of sightly changing pipe layouts and adding extensions to live pipes. Or often during emergency repairs. We don't usually need to add another valve/weak point, but if we do a normal one is easy to install with the pipe frozen. Freezing is super easy and cheap compared to these, which seem to be around $300 each.

 

[cgrutt]

Why does anyone freeze anymore when these are on the market:

EasyFit Isolator USA

EasyFit Isolator is a unique and permanent solution for isolating live water lines without an existing shutoff valve. No more pipe freezing or pipe plugging needed!

easyfitisolator.us

Those look pretty cool but don't think you would want to bury one of them on a water main. It also looks like its $560 per valve for 1".

 

[rlitman]

... Freezing is super easy and cheap compared to these, which seem to be around $300 each.

$560 for a 1". There's no way I'd be able to call a plumber to freeze a pipe (of any size) for $560 here. MAYBE if I triple that.

 

[branimal]

Plan of action…

• Freeze the line, house main shut off. Drill 1/8“ hole in section to be replaced. If it leaks I have a bandage repair clamp on hand. Then I need to come up with plan B.
• NO Leak - replace the entire line all the way to the meter.
• 8-10’ of type K ($16/ft - no brainer), sweat on a 90 el
• Full port ball valve on the vertical pipe heading to the meter. Will replace that section with Type L
• Everything will be insulated. R-value 7.2
• I tried to gently turn that last ball valve before the meter. Not budging. MaybE I leave that in place, maybe I remove it. Still deciding. See last pic.

Pics below. It’s a hot mess.

Good idea to have a dress coupling with a shutoff attached handy.

 

[Stuart in MN]

Guessing the town will bill you for tear up/redo of the street asphalt to shut the water off/on?

It may be different in other areas, but it's typical for the city to have an accessible shutoff valve at the street. It's commonly called a curb stop. There's a little round metal cover at ground level, they unscrew it, and then they have long metal T handle with a fitting at the end they can stick down a hole to open or close the underground valve. You just call to say you're doing maintenance or making repairs, and someone comes out to shut off the water. Call them again when you're done. No charge.

 

[nicks78camaro]

It may be different in other areas, but it's typical for the city to have an accessible shutoff valve at the street. It's commonly called a curb stop. There's a little round metal cover at ground level, they unscrew it, and then they have long metal T handle with a fitting at the end they can stick down a hole to open or close the underground valve. You just call to say you're doing maintenance or making repairs, and someone comes out to shut off the water. Call them again when you're done. No charge.

Yeah there's gotta be a reason that's not happening right? As in the shutoff is buried under pavement? I've heard of that happening in New Jersey, likely other areas.

 

[PCustoms]

Yeah there's gotta be a reason that's not happening right? As in the shutoff is buried under pavement? I've heard of that happening in New Jersey, likely other areas.

Right in the first post guys

I'm in an old brooklyn rowhouse and there is no street cutoff on the sidewalk or the street. The cutoff is a "tap" buried 4' under the street level.

 

[liliysdad]

It may be different in other areas, but it's typical for the city to have an accessible shutoff valve at the street. It's commonly called a curb stop. There's a little round metal cover at ground level, they unscrew it, and then they have long metal T handle with a fitting at the end they can stick down a hole to open or close the underground valve. You just call to say you're doing maintenance or making repairs, and someone comes out to shut off the water. Call them again when you're done. No charge.

I have a key and don’t have to call anyone to turn my own water off. The valve is on the city side of the meter.

Not having a shutoff is absolutely insane.

 

[egdede]

I have a key and don’t have to call anyone to turn my own water off. The valve is on the city side of the meter.

Not having a shutoff is absolutely insane.

The rumor around here (Southern CA) is that if you break an old valve on the city side of the meter, the city repair the broken valve and bill you. And their crews aren't cheap.

 

[liliysdad]

The rumor around here (Southern CA) is that if you break an old valve on the city side of the meter, the city repair the broken valve and bill you. And their crews aren't cheap.

I’d didn’t break anything. I wasn’t even home.

 

[Kylez]

I work for a water utility and we have the cold shot freeze machine. It works great. We usually hook it up, turn on the gas and have John rip a heater. By the time he puts that out the line has frozen. We then cut the line and slap the curbstop on it. We also run a blower that’s pumping fresh air into trench the whole time. I like it way better than crushing the copper tubing. If you do crush the copper make sure you put on a repair band over the reformed section. Those kinks that are left behind have a strong possibility of developing pinhole leaks over time. All that being said 90 percent of the time we do them live because if we are getting the call it means the service is leaking on the city side and the only way to stop the flow is shutting down water for entire streets. Compression fittings from AY McDonald, Mueller and Ford are your best friends. The vast majority of leaks in my town are due to failing flares. If it all goes south after cutting the copper and water is spraying everywhere, bend the tube over and kink it off to stop the water from flowing. Then you can take a breather and reassess the situation. You can also use two hammers to smash the end together. Make sure whoever is doing the actual work is ok with getting sprayed with water. A surprisingly high number of people seem to shut right down when getting sprayed with water.

 

[abfish]

Freeze machine- fascinating. We installed public utilities for 20 years, but I've never heard of that.

In the water systems we worked in, the service lateral "upstream" of the meter is the responsibility of the utility. The homeowner's responsibility is "downstream", from the meter to the house.

My OCD is sufficient that I would not cover up a pipe in that condition.

 

[Codyboy]

Plan of action…

I tried to gently turn that last ball valve before the meter. Not budging. MaybE I leave that in place, maybe I remove it. Still deciding.

 

[stickshift]

@Codyboy what's your point? The damaged pipe is before that valve.

 

[Codyboy]

@Codyboy what's your point? The damaged pipe is before that valve.

"branimal said:
I tried to gently turn that last ball valve before the meter. Not budging. MaybE I leave that in place, maybe I remove it. Still deciding."

A valve before the meter.

Any place I've had or ever dealt with, that would belong to the utility.
Whether its gas, water, electric...

How or why would you think about replacing or leaving a valve in place  before the meter?
Eta typo

 

[liliysdad]

"branimal said:
I tried to gently turn that last ball valve before the meter. Not budging. MaybE I leave that in place, maybe I remove it. Still deciding."

A valve before the meter.

Any place I've had or ever dealt with, that would belong to the utility.
Whether its gas, water, electric...

How or why would you think about replacing or leaving a valve in place  before the meter?
Eta typo

I believe he is describing the location looking from the house back to the water main….therefore the damage is “before” the meter.

 

[Codyboy]

I believe he is describing the location looking from the house back to the water main….therefore the damage is “before” the meter.

Well ok, I guess.

Before the meter is the line side and is owned by the utility.
After the meter is the load side and owned by the customer.

 

[liliysdad]

Well ok, I guess.

Before the meter is the line side and is owned by the utility.
After the meter is the load side and owned by the customer.

I understand what you’re saying, and agree it’s the commonly accepted vernacular…. Just trying to make sense of the way he’s describing it.

 

[BurtEggley]

stupid question but if you don't pay your bill, where does the city turn the water off? Is it upstream or downstream of the pipe dents?

 

[rlitman]

stupid question but if you don't pay your bill, where does the city turn the water off? ...

That's easy. They don't ever turn your water off. In fact, that property wouldn't have even had a meter before 1985.

 

[rust in the eye]

My brother has one of the CO2 freeze setups and we used it all over an apartment building remodel, was awesome. For some reason none of the plumbers around here have them, they were super jealous of it. We also did a couple of broken buried pipes in a trailer court, about six foot down. Was amazing for that as well. Super fast and easy to use, makes a cool ice donut around the pipe. I think this is the one he has, cost about $800 with a tank.

General Wire CST2 Cold-Shot Pipe Freeze Kit - Pipe Fittings - Amazon.com

General Wire CST2 Cold-Shot Pipe Freeze Kit - Pipe Fittings - Amazon.com

www.amazon.com

Not so sure I'd like to be in a six foot deep hole while venting a tank of CO2. Seems you survived though.
The OP's repair coupler looks complicated and failure prone to this amateur, why not a sweat connection?

 

[Bert_]

Well ok, I guess.

Before the meter is the line side and is owned by the utility.
After the meter is the load side and owned by the customer.

It's been said before, many places the customer owns the line all the way to the street.

 

[branimal]

A bit more digging, chipping and sanding.

• Ball Valve on the street side of the meter is working. Not sure why its there. I guess if the city needs to replace the meter, this makes it easy. No need to dig up the street to shutoff the tap to replace the meter. It's a pack joint style shutoff. (Pic 3)
• Cleaned up the copper directly below the street side valve. Definitely suitable sweat substrate. (Pic 4)
• Cleaned up the freeze zone. Should be able to get the freeze head in without issue. (Pic 2)

My initial plan was to replace the copper from the damaged area to meter. I'm not sure it's worth taking the risk that something goes wrong.

An alternative plan would be to just replace the damaged section. (Pic) 1 Two pack joints buried. Easy button and will likely hold for my lifetime. *** edit I think there is some lateral play on that meter. I'd need that play to make this work. **
** edit 2. No play needed. The pack joint acts like a repair coupling. There is not shoulder or stop on it. I can slide it all the way back.**

 

[BurtEggley]

Many states passed laws that mandated water meters. We had no meter either until that happened. They dug up right off the main on every house in the city and installed one. In fact that was over 20 years ago and they are getting ready to do it again due to their age. Here, there is a shut off at that meter, and the original one just before it.

 

[branimal]

Froze the line with the Ridgid, replaced 24" of damaged pipe. Practice run on a section of pipe connected to garden hose was a great idea.


Thanks for all the helpful insight.

 

[Renegade1LI]

Froze the line with the Ridgid, replaced 24" of damaged pipe. Practice run on a section of pipe connected to garden hose was a great idea.


Thanks for all the helpful insight.

Great job, good to hear the ridgid worked for you.

 

[tarbellb]

Nice work dude, bet it feels good to have that sorted out.

Dont tell the wife just yet, you can sit down there and slug beers for at least another day or two. Then come back up claiming victory!

 

[dscheidt]

Many states passed laws that mandated water meters. We had no meter either until that happened. They dug up right off the main on every house in the city and installed one. In fact that was over 20 years ago and they are getting ready to do it again due to their age. Here, there is a shut off at that meter, and the original one just before it.

Chicago didn’t have water meters in single family or two flats until 1984 or so. I got one installed when we bought our house— the bill is lower, but really I needed to fix the laundry sink faucet which had no shutoffs, and I didn’t want to mess with the basement shutoff. City came out to locate the curb shutoff, and discovered they had planted a tree on top of it 60 years ago. The guy who came out to install the meter was able to turn the basement valve, using a lot more force than I had been willing to risk. Got a nice full port valve on either side of the meter.

 

[mikedodge]

Many states passed laws that mandated water meters. We had no meter either until that happened. They dug up right off the main on every house in the city and installed one. In fact that was over 20 years ago and they are getting ready to do it again due to their age. Here, there is a shut off at that meter, and the original one just before it.

Our meters are in the house. At some point in the 90s they replaced the old meters with ones that have a socket outside they plugged into to read it. I think they replaced it again with something that's wireless now.