Am I crazy? Workshop Expansion Worth the $$$

[Fav Onefour]

I have a decent sized garage at home. 31.5' by 23.5' interior dimensions. One front corner 5' by 13' is lost to mud room/laundry and entry into the house. I've been using the third stall as a small workshop but it's tight when I have mowers or snowmobiles sitting on the floor.

Over the years I've also built up a workshop in the basement. That room is 40' long but only an average 12' width. It has full length workbenches along one wall. The space is used primarily for woodworking and small engine work. The basement shop is a nice setup but access is bad. I have an L shaped stair and three 32" doorways to get from the garage to the basement shop. I can get 4X8 sheets down there if I flex the sheet and tip it steeper than the stair. Even with the convoluted maneuvering, I'm still banging the walls and doorways. When I build cabinets or large furniture, I have to haul it upstairs before assembly. Another issue is that I'm going through the "nice" part of the house. The basement shop is getting to be a back breaker from trying to move sheet goods etc. I'm also getting tired of swapping shoes when going back and forth between the garage and basement shop.

The question about crazy is multi faceted. We have been shopping for houses and property but the wife wants something close by. Fine, but there aren't many houses around that have potential for easy access or large shop spaces. We've found a few but the price is nuts or the property is junk. We looked at properties that were good without a decent building. Most of those would be tear downs. (Open lot prices are really nuts.)
Would you buy the property and tear down or lay out the big bucks on a full package?

The other option is where it's real crazy. We fixed up the house to our tastes over the years. Lots of little things that add up. Geo multi zone heating, floor heat in the garage and snowmelt driveway. I did a lot of custom work inside and I have the basement shop space. It's in a great neighborhood.

I'm throwing around the idea of staying in the house and doing the maximum allowable addition possible. It's not a huge amount. I have 4' more room alongside my garage before hitting required property line setback. I also have room behind my full depth third stall to add about 13' by 22' of space. I'm tossing around the idea of bumping out the sidewall and adding on to the back. The addition would be smaller than my basement shop but it would be open into my third stall. Some of the disadvantages would be that I'd be covering a living room side window and struggling to make the addition look decent. I think I'm stuck with a different low slope roof line for that portion. Doing an addition also ties the woodworking shop into the garage and metal working area. I'd like to have it one open space and probably do a moveable barrier to isolate dust etc.

The addition would be over 100k even without getting too fancy. Probably at least $250 per sq. ft. It would technically be a 4th stall. On paper that would translate into maybe 1/4 the cost when it comes to selling the place. Overall, the project wouldn't be a simple check writing deal. I'd still be on the hook to do a pile of odds and ends. On the other hand, I can't see any chance of finding a property that would be turn key.

Am I crazy to think about doing the addition?

 

[PoorUB]

Am I crazy to think about doing the addition?

How long do you plan to live there? The cost of the project gets forgotten if you stay there for many years.
If you like the neighborhood and the house and you plan on living there for many more years I don't have an problem with spending the money.

 

[Sumboodie]

100k for 350ft is beyond crazy money.

Could tear down the garage and build it 40x30 or whatever your size is for under that.

 

[Sumboodie]

I just priced materials for a 30x30 addition, 14ft walls, and I'm at about 25k. Plus slab and truck door.

 

[Fav Onefour]

How long do you plan to live there? The cost of the project gets forgotten if you stay there for many years.
If you like the neighborhood and the house and you plan on living there for many more years I don't have an problem with spending the money.

I appreciate the perspective.
We have talked about the time frame extensively. We'd like to stay in the house until we can't handle the stairs and steep lot. We invested the dollars into snowmelt on the steep drive to make it easier to stay. The home does not have bedrooms on the main level. That's probably the biggest factor. Doing the workshop on the main level would help extend the time frame for me using the shop.

 

[PoorUB]

I appreciate the perspective.
We have talked about the time frame extensively. We'd like to stay in the house until we can't handle the stairs and steep lot. We invested the dollars into snowmelt on the steep drive to make it easier to stay. The home does not have bedrooms on the main level. That's probably the biggest factor. Doing the workshop on the main level would help extend the time frame for me using the shop.

It might not make sense dollar wise, but moving isn't cheap either.

We just about put a $100,000 addition on our home. Similar situation, did it make sense? Nope! But we have no desire to move. We had drawings done and were getting quotes and one day my wife tells me the whole idea is crazy and lets just improve what we have. Since then we have remodeled the main floor, the lower level had been done a few years earlier. Some of that would have been done with the addition, but done differently.

 

[BombShelter]

Car condos are popping up everwhere around here, that might be another option.

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[Skellyii]

I just priced materials for a 30x30 addition, 14ft walls, and I'm at about 25k. Plus slab and truck door.

Location, location, location.

Cost varies widely deepening on where you live. My cousin who lives about 80 miles from me can get things done for generally 30% less than I can.

 

[PoorUB]

Car condos are popping up everwhere around here, that might be another option.

Park Place Storage - Garage Condos & Storage

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For storage, it is fine, for shop space it needs to be handy. If I had to hop in the car and drive a few minutes to go to my shop it wold get old very fast.

 

[dukes909]

What will happen to your basement shop if you move the shop elsewhere? Can you cut the sheet goods down to smaller sizes first instead of trying to tote 4x8 sheets down there? Can you build a separate access to the basement besides the garage/3 door access? By the way I hope that access that you described to the basement is not the only way in or out....

 

[PoorUB]

I just priced materials for a 30x30 addition, 14ft walls, and I'm at about 25k. Plus slab and truck door.

Location, location, location.

Cost varies widely deepening on where you live. My cousin who lives about 80 miles from me can get things done for generally 30% less than I can.

$100K seems high to me too, but I would definitely get a 2-3 quotes.

 

[The Metric System]

We spent $400k on 1,300 sqft of high-spec shop space that is well-integrated into an existing house we love. The location is great and we intend to be here for decades.

No regerts, would build again.

If you can afford it I vote build what you want.

 

[Fav Onefour]

100k for 350ft is beyond crazy money.

Could tear down the garage and build it 40x30 or whatever your size is for under that.

I won't argue one bit about the crazy money statement. I hate living in the city for a lot of reasons and that falls right on top of the list.

Simply going bigger is tough because I'm constrained by lot line setbacks from simply going to a nice big shop. The specifics for a variance would be hard to overcome. First, I'd have to prove the property can't be reasonably used in the current configuration. We tried to get a variance years ago before installing the snow melt. The driveway is dang steep and we wanted to build a garage in front and cut into the hillside down one level. The city didn't go for the idea of building into the setback even with the argument of making the driveway flatter and safe for use.

If it wasn't for my wife, this topic wouldn't be happening. She has always been a city gal and can't break away. I've learned to live with that reality.
The strangely ironic part is that I move to the farm for two months doing planting and harvest. I go up north to play in the snow alternating weeks during winter. I have workshops available but they are not close and handy. The house in the city isn't a do or die workshop need but I do like having a nice setup to get stuff done. I do most of my woodworking stuff at the city house. In between snowmobile trips I work on the sleds at home. It's easier with nice floor heat, dry equipment, and staging space for tools, parts, etc.

 

[Fav Onefour]

$100K seems high to me too, but I would definitely get a 2-3 quotes.

We are just starting the process of getting bids. I have not seen firm numbers yet. I'm honestly concerned it may be higher than 100k.

 

[u2slow]

l feel like my shop build cost me a stupid amount of money. But property values skyrocketed well beyond expenditure so it didnt matter much.

In hindsight, it was money well spent. It would cost ferociously more today, and even more red tape.

 

[Skellyii]

I won't argue one bit about the crazy money statement. I hate living in the city for a lot of reasons and that falls right on top of the list.

Simply going bigger is tough because I'm constrained by lot line setbacks from simply going to a nice big shop. The specifics for a variance would be hard to overcome. First, I'd have to prove the property can't be reasonably used in the current configuration. We tried to get a variance years ago before installing the snow melt. The driveway is dang steep and we wanted to build a garage in front and cut into the hillside down one level. The city didn't go for the idea of building into the setback even with the argument of making the driveway flatter and safe for use.

If it wasn't for my wife, this topic wouldn't be happening. She has always been a city gal and can't break away. I've learned to live with that reality.
The strangely ironic part is that I move to the farm for two months doing planting and harvest. I go up north to play in the snow alternating weeks during winter. I have workshops available but they are not close and handy. The house in the city isn't a do or die workshop need but I do like having a nice setup to get stuff done. I do most of my woodworking stuff at the city house. In between snowmobile trips I work on the sleds at home. It's easier with nice floor heat, dry equipment, and staging space for tools, parts, etc.

A few years ago when I was planning on buying my retirement house, I floated the idea of moving back to the small town where I was raised. I could get a good piece of land, and a nicer house than what I could get for the same price where I live now.

My fiancée's response was "I'll miss you".

 

[Sumboodie]

We spent $400k on 1,300 sqft of high-spec shop space that is well-integrated into an existing house we love. The location is great and we intend to be here for decades.

No regerts, would build again.

If you can afford it I vote build what you want.

Better have gold plated floors for that $$!

 

[Sumboodie]

$100K seems high to me too, but I would definitely get a 2-3 quotes.

I neved considered having someone else do it, my price was with me doing it.

 

[Fav Onefour]

What will happen to your basement shop if you move the shop elsewhere? Can you cut the sheet goods down to smaller sizes first instead of trying to tote 4x8 sheets down there? Can you build a separate access to the basement besides the garage/3 door access? By the way I hope that access that you described to the basement is not the only way in or out....

Definitely some good points. The basement has one egress window but it's not large enough to fit sheets.
I have started sizing sheets before bringing them into the current shop. It makes it hauling them manageable. I thought about doing just a table saw in the addition to make sizing easy. I'd still be stuck with cabinet and large furniture assembly outside the basement shop.

Funny that you mention a separate access. Most of the homes built down in farm country have straight stairways from the garage into the basement. It makes a lot of sense and I dream about having that setup. We've looked a quite a few homes before thinking about doing a shop addition. Garage stairs or even a straight configuration is relatively rare around the city. I'm a practical farm guy at heart and all these fufu looking multi landing stairs drive me nuts.

I'm trying to figure out how I could incorporate a stairway into the design if I go ahead with the addition. I've thought about it quite a bit. The shared wall has a full depth fireplace footing right in the middle and some of my Geo lines run in along that wall. It would be a tight fit if I can get a stairway into that wall. I want to avoid giving up valuable floor in an addition. There is the alternate option of doing an outside stair but I'm not a big fan of the issues. Water management is a biggie. I'm not sure how I'd do drainage? We can't tie exterior into the house sewer. In our climate we need 42" of frost footing. If I went with an outside stair, it looks like I'd have to underpin the basement foundation to bring an unconditioned stairwell.

You guys are bringing up some great new perspectives. It helps a lot. I've wrangled with a head full of ideas on this whole dang subject. Cripes, I find myself waking up in the middle of the night with some crazy thing that hadn't occurred to me earlier.

 

[Fav Onefour]

A few years ago when I was planning on buying my retirement house, I floated the idea of moving back to the small town where I was raised. I could get a good piece of land, and a nicer house than what I could get for the same price where I live now.

My fiancée's response was "I'll miss you".

We have had very similar discussions. I've mentioned building near the farm or up in the woods. Available land, space, and material costs would make things easier. Her response was the same as your fiancee.
I'll give her credit though. She doesn't give me too much grief when I do those things. I invite her to come down to farm or go snowmobiling. It's just not her thing. I'm not much into some of the highfalutin stuff she does either. It pains the **** out of me if I have to put on a suit for "social" events. I'm not comfortable and it's not my thing. In other words, I need to get this shop nailed down so I can hang out in there more. It'll help me get over wearing a suit.

 

[Fav Onefour]

It might not make sense dollar wise, but moving isn't cheap either.

We just about put a $100,000 addition on our home. Similar situation, did it make sense? Nope! But we have no desire to move. We had drawings done and were getting quotes and one day my wife tells me the whole idea is crazy and lets just improve what we have. Since then we have remodeled the main floor, the lower level had been done a few years earlier. Some of that would have been done with the addition, but done differently.

The costs of buying and selling are a factor.

We got rid of a property last year doing FSBO just because. It was a bunch of work and still cost us over 24k for the buyer's agent. I look at those costs as something that has to have enough value to make the move. I can only imagine how much we'd have to recoup if we sold the house and bought another one we liked.

 

[finn]

Depends on your age, but sooner or later it’s probable that one or both of you won’t be able to deal with the stairs anymore, making an eventual move almost inevitable. It might be prudent to move.

Also, some of the features described on your current home aren’t so much desirable upgrades as they are remedies to inherent deficiencies with the property, eg the heated driveway.

I would intensify the search for a property that better suits your current, and especially future needs. I understand it’s hard to come to grips with that, though.

Alternatively, consider what I did: our property is on the lake, so the lots are relatively deep, but narrow. I outgrew my 32’x54’ building, so I found another a mile from the house that was 48’x75’ on an acre plus. Problem solved. Now if I can get the old lady next door to that building to sell me about ten acres, I’ll be set.

 

[APEowner]

Can you do the addition in such a way that you can convert it to a bedroom or other interior space when it's time to sell? That could make the long term financial aspect more reasonable.

 

[JuncleJohn]

Your age and finances needs to be considered before anything else. For most of us, as we age stairs tend to become more difficult. Upstairs bedrooms and a basement workshop may not be ideal in a few years.

Also, are you retired or still working? If retired, can you pay for this with savings that you won’t need in case of an emergency? If you’re still working, will you be able to get this paid off before retirement? That much cost with so little square feet gained has me concerned.

I think I’d keep looking for a property that will better suit your immediate and future needs.

Good luck.

John

 

[Fav Onefour]

Depends on your age, but sooner or later it’s probable that one or both of you won’t be able to deal with the stairs anymore, making an eventual move almost inevitable. It might be prudent to move.

Also, some of the features described on your current home aren’t so much desirable upgrades as they are remedies to inherent deficiencies with the property, eg the heated driveway.

I would intensify the search for a property that better suits your current, and especially future needs. I understand it’s hard to come to grips with that, though.

Alternatively, consider what I did: our property is on the lake, so the lots are relatively deep, but narrow. I outgrew my 32’x54’ building, so I found another a mile from the house that was 48’x75’ on an acre plus. Problem solved. Now if I can get the old lady next door to that building to sell me about ten acres, I’ll be set.

To your first paragraph. I completely agree. The fact that we will eventually want a place with less challenges got us started talking about and looking at places. I figured it's easier to move now and spend some years tuning up the new place while I'm in good shape. The initial search was pretty laid back until we started seeing availability and costs related to what we want and "need" in a space. Pricing in our market is pretty steep unless you are happy with a long drive. The driving thing is a big deal for my wife. She doesn't like driving so we're close to her office. Proximity has it's costs.

To the driveway thing. I have to admit that part of that was myself being a little selfish. The steep driveway scared the **** out of her when I was gone in winter. We had a plow guy that came by but he honestly just made a mess. It was getting to the point where my wife wanted me to stick around if it was going to snow. That isn't a great scenario for a guy that wants to leave and play in the snow.

Ultimately, it would be fantastic to find a property that fills in the checkmarks. The challenge is that I don't think we'd be happy with less than what we have. It's a tough call. We're still throwing out options.

 

[Fav Onefour]

Can you do the addition in such a way that you can convert it to a bedroom or other interior space when it's time to sell? That could make the long term financial aspect more reasonable.

Good idea. I think the basement shop would be easier.
The house already has a lot of clicks for buyers at 5B 4B. Oddly, there are quite a few in our category that have a second kitchen or super fancy bar in the basement. We have just one kitchen and I yanked out the cheap bar. With all my fancy workbenches in the workshop, all I need is a fancier sink to make the place into one heck of a bar.

 

[Viper98912]

If you have your current house setup the way you want to, I would figure out how to stay there and get what you want. That includes expanding your shop and making a bedroom downstairs if possible. Depending on your level of upgrades, moving into a new home could take you 5-10 years depending on what you want to do and how long it takes you to do it. That alone would make moving a big negative for me.

Now, spending $100k for a tiny addition is not logical either. I would say you need to rethink your plans; figure out how to move walls, figure out how to get better rooflines, figure out how to get the right spaces in the right places. I would pass on moving. Build an elevator if you need one

 

[Stuart in MN]

Is there a way to add a second basement access that comes up into the yard, perhaps with a Bilco door? That would probably be a lot cheaper than adding on to the garage, and would also be easier from a permitting standpoint. One of the things I like very much about my 110 year old house in south Mpls is having an outside door and stairs to the basement. Besides being easier to move stuff in and out of my wood shop, it makes life a lot easier for stuff like furnace work or replacing the water heater. Otherwise I'd have to go through the kitchen and several tight bends to use the inside stairs.

 

[MovingAlong]

Not sure what you enjoy doing in your shop or where you're at exactly, but typically there is a piece of commercial property somewhere with a landlord desperately looking for a tenant.

With what you're talking about investing, renting a commercial shop might not be as expensive as you think.

 

[finn]

Is there a way to add a second basement access that comes up into the yard, perhaps with a Bilco door? That would probably be a lot cheaper than adding on to the garage, and would also be easier from a permitting standpoint. One of the things I like very much about my 110 year old house in south Mpls is having an outside door and stairs to the basement. Besides being easier to move stuff in and out of my wood shop, it makes life a lot easier for stuff like furnace work or replacing the water heater. Otherwise I'd have to go through the kitchen and several tight bends to use the inside stairs.

I have a Biilco door and I hate it.

If an outside entrance is feasible, build a proper adtwith a conventional 36” or larger man door..

 

[Stuart in MN]

I have a Biilco door and I hate it.

If an outside entrance is feasible, build a proper adtwith a conventional 36” or larger man door..

Yes, a regular door is better - I have a 36" door so access is easy, but sometimes you have to go with what will work in a particular situation.

 

[Lassen Forge]

My thoughts - eg what I would do.... if moving is not really an option.
(1) reutilize your downstars shop into other stuff where stairs aren't a big deal - laundry room, guest room, gameroom, gun room, storage space, whatever. We had family friends who had a downstairs laundry - a chute went from the bottom of the bathroom closet to the basement, and an originally manual, then winch driven, dumbwaiter would lift clean stuff back up to the "first" floor.
(1a) use the dumbwaiter system to move stuff between floors for storage, etc. Kind of like how department stores move stock between sales and storage.
(2) Convert the "wasted" space in the shop now used as a laundry etc. into more shop space.
(3) Expand the shop to the limits allowable. Keep plugging for that varience, with supporting documentation if necessary.

 

[finn]

My thoughts - eg what I would do.... if moving is not really an option.
(1) reutilize your downstars shop into other stuff where stairs aren't a big deal - laundry room, guest room, gameroom, gun room, storage space, whatever. We had family friends who had a downstairs laundry - a chute went from the bottom of the bathroom closet to the basement, and an originally manual, then winch driven, dumbwaiter would lift clean stuff back up to the "first" floor.
(1a) use the dumbwaiter system to move stuff between floors for storage, etc. Kind of like how department stores move stock between sales and storage.
(2) Convert the "wasted" space in the shop now used as a laundry etc. into more shop space.
(3) Expand the shop to the limits allowable. Keep plugging for that varience, with supporting documentation if necessary.

A downstairs laundry works when you’re young and able, but is a terrible idea for the elderly

And eventually age catches up with us.

The current house sounds like it’s not his forever house.

 

[Lassen Forge]

A downstairs laundry works when you’re young and able, but is a terrible idea for the elderly

And eventually age catches up with us.

The current house sounds like it’s not his forever house.

Thats why I mentioned the winch operated dumbwaiter and the laundry chute hamper - no WAY I would haul laundry up and down stairs (and I'm not even THAT old... yet... um... never mind.... ) I'm already thinking about something like that for our current place (4 stories of stairs fun) - it's bad enough just running up and down, hauling stuff? Unh Unh!

 

[CraigStu]

Is there a space in the house to install an elevator to the 2nd floor bedrooms? Everything makes more sense the longer you can plan on staying there.

 

[Fav Onefour]

Is there a way to add a second basement access that comes up into the yard, perhaps with a Bilco door? That would probably be a lot cheaper than adding on to the garage, and would also be easier from a permitting standpoint. One of the things I like very much about my 110 year old house in south Mpls is having an outside door and stairs to the basement. Besides being easier to move stuff in and out of my wood shop, it makes life a lot easier for stuff like furnace work or replacing the water heater. Otherwise I'd have to go through the kitchen and several tight bends to use the inside stairs.

We considered doing an outside stair years ago when we put an egress window into a basement bedroom. I don't remember the numbers but we didn't go with the plan. It was a lot for a set of stairs.
Part of the decision was related to how little I used the basement shop at the time. I didn't have a dedicated shop area with good workbenches. The basement was one big room. My out feed table was an old chest freezer. Since that time I've finished out the basement. It now has the workshop, a 3/4 bath, bedroom, workout room, and I've run dedicated power. I added dust collection, and built up the space with good lighting. The basement is used a lot.
I do agree that an outside stair would address the access issues for big items. For some reason those doors seem like old school but I've only dealt with old versions. They were a bunch of work to keep clean and dry. I really don't much about new ground versions. I'd prefer the door to be something like a Hogans Heroes setup in the woods so I didn't have t see the thing. Admittedly I'm a little leery about dealing with mud and snow tracking into the shop during those seasons. My shop would do well with white glove testing.

I've thrown around the idea of doing a trapdoor setup in the addition with stairs going into the basement. I've never seen a modern version and I'm not sure of the challenges. I'm guessing those have a pile of regulations especially coming from a garage.
The irony is that I've dealt with outside stairs and trapdoors in older homes. I lived in a house that had a trapdoor in the kitchen. Some of those old buggers seemed like dungeon portals.

 

[NUTTSGT]

Sounds like you have tried the variance thing once. I still might try again with the variance since it would be adding to the side and not the front...that my be plausible for them.

My wife didn't really want rural life till we moved. Now she wouldn't want to go back to living in town...
Got space, got a yard, dog & grandkids have room to run outside and you're not looking right into a neighbor's window (vice versa).. think i might try to have another talk with her, a walk thru of a layout at the farm, if that's where you would build..

 

[Sumboodie]

Car condos are popping up everwhere around here, that might be another option.

Park Place Storage - Garage Condos & Storage

Park Place Storage provides secure garage condo & storage solutions that let you keep your vehicles secure in a quality garage condo close to home. With several locations north and south of the Twin Cities in Minnesota, as well as condos in Wisconsin and Ohio, you can have your car, RV or boat...

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Around here they are STUPUD money. Like 400k for an 800-1000 sq ft "garage". And you can't work in it

 

[JohnX14]

What will happen to your basement shop if you move the shop elsewhere? Can you cut the sheet goods down to smaller sizes first instead of trying to tote 4x8 sheets down there? Can you build a separate access to the basement besides the garage/3 door access? By the way I hope that access that you described to the basement is not the only way in or out....

That's what I was going to ask/ suggest. Direct entrance to basement, even if it is from outdoors, not from the garage. (assuming it is now from garage)

 

[Fav Onefour]

Not sure what you enjoy doing in your shop or where you're at exactly, but typically there is a piece of commercial property somewhere with a landlord desperately looking for a tenant.

With what you're talking about investing, renting a commercial shop might not be as expensive as you think.

I've considered that as an option. We own a couple of buildings already. One has a nice dry four stall garage that is used mainly for storage. I built a small bench area inside one stall but I bring tools over whenever I'm doing bigger projects. It's 12 miles from the house.

This is another one that is 8 miles away. I've partially outfitted the space with a workshop.

The space is great and fun to use but it's 8 miles of city driving every single time I want to cut a board over there. I've built a temporary paint booth in the space along with a basic tool setup. I use the space for staging bigger jobs and finishing.

Our house is the central location right between those two properties and my wife's main office is a couple miles away. We are also smack dab in between the two primary cities. We do business in both downtown areas.

My goal is to make things more efficient at home with less windshield time. I often work on stuff in bits and pieces or late into the night. Both options work better without the added driving.

There is one advantage that I do see with the remote shops. My wife doesn't come clomping into the shop at 2:00 am to say it's time for bed. Without that alarm, I lose track of time and keep on going. Long term, that might not be good. First part, for our marriage, second part, for my health.