3/4 drive Koken Metric set

superautobacs · Jul 21, 2009

UK Steve said:
Let's us geeks get our facts right.... "Over 40 years ago Ko-ken developed a new 12 point opening by reducing the angle of the conventional oppening (150 deg) to 148 Deg in order to improve the gripping zones of the socket teeth and their effectivness on nuts & bolts"

Everybody including Snap-on used and still use 150 deg Ko-ken developed the 148 deg angle.

In 1986 Ko-ken introduced Flat drive (Snap-on's Flank drive invented by Rolls Royce way back in the 20's) to all sockets, this in combination with 148 deg made Ko-ken 12 point sockets unbeatable.

I would be careful with those sockets on ebay.....they are less than wholesale prices.

I just realized that my #'s were reversed between the Ko-ken and Snap-on's, so I've corrected it. I apparently didn't read the title of my attachment too well.

I understand that the conventional designs out there are 150deg, but I've read the Snap-on's flank drive to be 144deg; not the 150deg you state. See attachment below.

And, a Japanese source says the patent for the Flat Drive was submitted in Dec. 1967; not the 1986 you mention.

Are you reading these from an old Ko-ken catalogue? If that's the case, it's understandibly hard to dispute it.

UK Steve · Jul 21, 2009

superautobacs said:
I just realized that my #'s were reversed between the Ko-ken and Snap-on's, so I've corrected it. I apparently didn't read the title of my attachment too well.

I understand that the conventional designs out there are 150deg, but I've read the Snap-on's flank drive to be 144deg; not the 150deg you state. See attachment below.

And, a Japanese source says the patent for the Flat Drive was submitted in Dec. 1967; not the 1986 you mention.

Are you reading these from an old Ko-ken catalogue? If that's the case, it's understandibly hard to dispute it.

This is very interesting, I like your attachment it's very informative.
I will hold my hand up to being wrong about Snap-on's 12 point angle, according to your drawing.

Your Japanese source is correct in saying the date was 1967 but that was for the 148 deg angle on the 12 point sockets and not Flat drive, two different things.

Flat drive was introduced in 1986 when Snap-on's flank drive patent ran out.

If you enlarge the photo's of the 3/4" drive sockets in this thread none have flat drive but all will have the 148 deg angle being 12 point.

This tells me that they are quite old sockets, having said that they should have a date stamp as all Ko-ken tools have year & month of manufacture.

48548 · Jul 21, 2009

Try this as you are into proto..

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Plumb-P...trkparms=65:12|66:2|39:1|72:1205|293:1|294:50

rhastings80 said:
Hi Everyone,

I got my Koken sockets today. Thought I would take some pictures for everyone. I think they look very nice. They were all just dumped in a box and rattling around but I’m not complaining as this was a great deal. Wondering what everybody else thinks? The 63mm socket is huge. It’s as big as my hand. At first glace I have all 27 sockets and no duplicates. Guess I will find out how well my Harbor Freight US General box drawers will holds these. They weight like 37 pounds in all. Now I also need to find a ¾ ratchet and breaker bar. Anybody have any suggestions?

<table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/mgXiM-acXDmINB7zXIBifA?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="http://lh5.ggpht.com/_gyA2MJjiLlg/SmUY0kcNVqI/AAAAAAAAAFM/8Y6MA7mJ8jc/s144/IMG_4091.jpg" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/mike.4324/Koken?feat=embedwebsite">Koken</a></td></tr></table>

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I also picked up that 3/8 Koken socket set on Ebay for $35.00. It is not nearly as nice as the ¾ inch. The 3/8inch MM set seems very cheap and the ratchet isn’t very smooth.

<table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Afr5xJ1SHys05NEXXCqqsA?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="http://lh6.ggpht.com/_gyA2MJjiLlg/SmUZfMfMLqI/AAAAAAAAAFk/_6CBvgb-bOM/s144/IMG_4101.jpg" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/mike.4324/Koken?feat=embedwebsite">Koken</a></td></tr></table>

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Later,
Rob

rhandwor · Jul 21, 2009

Where can Koken sockets be warrantied in the USA. Will they warranty a chrome socket used on an impact wrench. I imagine a few of these will be used on an impact wrench.

Paumanok · Jul 21, 2009

Can anyone recomend a quality 3/4" ratchet other than SO. All my snapon 3/4" gear has those locking pins in addition to the spring retainer ball on most normal ratchets. My Koken sockets don't want to go on the SO stuff, and I'm afraid if I force one of the Kokens on, I won't be able to get it off, 'cause I can't release the locking pin(no button on the Koken socket). Would anyone recomend a new proto 3/4" ratchet? Are they still made in USA? How about a long(at least 36") 3/4" breaker bar?(other than snapon - I have the snappy one and the head is not compatible with Koken sockets). Thanks guys :thumbup:

rhandwor · Jul 21, 2009

I have a long Wright that has held up well. A friend with a Semi Has one and he has used a six foot pipe on his.
Ask TRTOOLSUPPLY he's on the list and might give you a discount.

48548 · Jul 21, 2009

Proto, would be my recommendation, or if you want to save some bucks I bought 2 snap on 3/4 ratchet adapters to use with my breaker bars or I also have a couple plomb 5849 1" ratchets and a toptul impact reducer that should work just fine with the 3/4 sockets.

Kurt4440 · Jul 21, 2009

So how old are these Koken sockets?

rhandwor · Jul 21, 2009

http://www.ebay.com/ Search Armstrong and Proto ratchets 3/4 drive they have several used.

superautobacs · Jul 21, 2009

UK Steve said:
...
Your Japanese source is correct in saying the date was 1967 but that was for the 148 deg angle on the 12 point sockets and not Flat drive, two different things.

Flat drive was introduced in 1986 when Snap-on's flank drive patent ran out.
...

I get it now. The attached image that I put up of the Ko-ken....the top drawing shows the 148deg they started in 1967 and the bottom drawing depicts the sockets after 1986.

Thanks for the clarification.

Kurt4440 said:
So how old are these Koken sockets?

With the newer products, there are 3 digits. ie. 097 --the first two digits equate to the year and the last digit being the month. October would be 090; November 09J; December 09K

In your case, there's only two digits and I don't know how to decode it. Perhaps UKSteve might know.

superautobacs · Jul 21, 2009

Monte said:
There is a tremendous amount of different socket designs from "Flank-drive" to Unit-drive, AS-drive, Torqueplus, Energy-profil, Tractionsprofil, sure-grip, etc. but what are the advantages of the different 6 and 12 point styles compared to each other and what makes ko-ken superior ??
[/IMG]

Like UKSteve mentioned, after SO's patent term expired, many started to copy/mimic the design, and coming up with their own names. In essence they're all trying to acheive a socket/wrench pattern that does not bear any forces on hex points, but on the hex flats.

I think there's two major designs in the market when it come to fastener-friendly drive patterns:

1. Flank Drive pattern
2. Loc-Rite pattern

Many are familiar with the Flank-drive pattern as it's the most widely recognized design, but have probably never heard of the Loc-rite pattern. Loc-Rite drive was apparently patented even before Snap-on's Flank Drive, in March of 1964 by Utica-Bonney.

I think the primary difference between the two patterns is this:

Flank Drive styles, whether it be a genuine Snap-on 144deg angle or a more conventional 150deg or anywhere in between, the driving force is exerted on a single point on the hex flat during high torque situations.

On the other hand, the Loc-Rite, or any variation to it's wavey pattern, is exerting it's force on a slightly larger surface area of the hex flat during high torque situations.

48548 · Jul 21, 2009

It would appear the person still has 3 sets in case someone wanted to pick one up.

48548 · Jul 21, 2009

I just picked up another plomb 5668 breaker bar on ebay for 35, not great but when I add that to the proto 3/4 ratchet adapter I got for less than 20, that sure makes is a better deal. Also look at snap on ratchet adapters a new 3/4 can be had for 150 or a used one for about 50 or so, then get a breaker bar and you are good to go.

UK Steve · Jul 22, 2009

Kurt4440 said:
So how old are these Koken sockets?

After doing some detective work and asking the right people the right questions, the date of manufacture on the socket photographed is March 1985, now don't ask me why it's not March 1995 because I don't know the secret of the code.
But I'm going to find out,..... it's now a mission.

UK Steve · Jul 22, 2009

rhandwor said:
Where can Koken sockets be warrantied in the USA. Will they warranty a chrome socket used on an impact wrench. I imagine a few of these will be used on an impact wrench.

Stahlwille are the US distributors of Ko-ken, maybe try them, but don't hold your breath, impacted chrome sockets are a no no.

UK Steve · Jul 22, 2009

Paumanok said:
Can anyone recomend a quality 3/4" ratchet other than SO. All my snapon 3/4" gear has those locking pins in addition to the spring retainer ball on most normal ratchets. My Koken sockets don't want to go on the SO stuff, and I'm afraid if I force one of the Kokens on, I won't be able to get it off, 'cause I can't release the locking pin(no button on the Koken socket). Would anyone recomend a new proto 3/4" ratchet? Are they still made in USA? How about a long(at least 36") 3/4" breaker bar?(other than snapon - I have the snappy one and the head is not compatible with Koken sockets). Thanks guys

Why not try Ko-ken, they do a 1000mm breaker bar where the head can be exchanged for a ratchet head, cracking piece of kit.

rhandwor · Jul 22, 2009

I think she said she would put in two packages to drop postage to foreign countries.

Diesel-Mech · Jul 22, 2009

I received my missing sockets today, I'm both very happy with the sockets and the seller so if any of you are on the fence about buying a set for those reasons I give both a thumbs up from me.

48548 · Jul 22, 2009

2 more left for now... Pick them up while you can.

scottmlew · Jul 22, 2009

Yeah, you should all get in on this action...it's a great deal, and the seller is top-notch! Admittedly, most of us will use only the smaller sizes, but it's still a good deal!

48548 · Jul 23, 2009

Looks like they are down to one set left.

webscrounger · Jul 23, 2009

Hi, I'm Craig. Found you posts about the Koken stuff and just joined the forum. Good place for tool info.

The socket set sounded too good to be true if you add up what you'd pay retail for all those sockets so I jumped on it and bought one set on eBay. I don't really need some of those large sockets but for the price, what the heck.

The current add says there are two left.

Go get em!

48548 · Jul 23, 2009

Hmmmm The number keeps changing maybe she has more to sell.....

rhandwor · Jul 23, 2009

Has anyone used the sockets yet?

Diesel-Mech · Jul 23, 2009

The return address and box that my missing sockets came in is from a large rubber molding company so I'm guessing maybe they bought these large drive sets for in house maintenance and then never used them or something of that nature.

Turns out they also do this stuff.

Products Description:
Thermoplastic plastics, Rubber and elastomers, Natural rubber, Processed and synthetic rubber, Elastomers, Thermoset plastics, Tools and General machinery.

That explains the good customer service it is a real company selling this stuff.

loganp · Jul 23, 2009

I bought a set a few days ago... they will go nicely with my 3/4" jet ratchet and The seller is putting them in 2 separate boxes to save on shipping so I will let you all know how it works out when i get them.. Also The seller has extensions and ratchets listed now as well.

scottmlew · Jul 24, 2009

loganp said:
I bought a set a few days ago... they will go nicely with my 3/4" jet ratchet and The seller is putting them in 2 separate boxes to save on shipping so I will let you all know how it works out when i get them.. Also The seller has extensions and ratchets listed now as well.

Yeah I noticed that...but $100 for 2 extensions? Even $100 for a ratchet sounded steep. I know they're brand new, but still...

webscrounger · Jul 24, 2009

WOW! One fast shipment. Less than 24 hours and the sockets were at my door! Very nice set of 24 large sockets for $115 delivered even if they are a bit older and lacking the newest socket design. I did notice that the items listed in my auction were less 2 or 3 sockets from those the earlier auctions but it is still a bargain IMO. Happy camper here. :thumbup:

48548 · Aug 8, 2009

Well I was thinking of using the stuff this weekend, but couldn't find anything big enough that needed the stuff.... Oh well the thought that counts. At least I am prepaired. I have two snap on 3/4 ratchet adapters to use on my 3/4 breakers and an a toptul impact adapter to go from 1" to 3/4 to use on my plomb 1" ratchets and two more snap on 1" ratchet adapters and adapters to go to 3/4 to use on the breaker bars and back down to 3/4 for the sockets.

48548 · Oct 29, 2009

Has anyone actually used this set and what do they think? I don't have anything to use them on at this time.... So I was curious if anyone else has used them.

rhandwor · Oct 30, 2009

You never know when you will need them. I bought a set of Proto used and a little MG came in and they were needed.
It was the last place I ever thought they would be needed.

3/4 drive Koken Metric set

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