Craftsman 5198. Who made these awesome vises!!

Smokeshow69 · May 2, 2017

drivesitfar said:
Shift: yep it does look like Balane's stump doesn't it? and that looks like the quality of his work he used to do too. i think we ran out of cheap vises in the PNW so he's probably doing other things now cause i haven't seen or talked to him in a while.

Yeah, what happened to that cat? He did the most amazing work and it seemed like he restored a different vise every day. I do remember when he painted the Wilton the snap on green and put the logo on it. Alot of people where very vocal about it and where unnecessarily hard on him. I think that may be why he does not post much here any more? I do think he did restore a few of these 519x series and would love to hear his opinion on the maker of these!

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drivesitfar · May 2, 2017

Smoke: i'm pretty sure Balane didn't disappear from GJ because of razzing cause he would paint his vises the color of whatever paint he picked up for $1 that week at garage sales. he did amazing work and my guess is that he just ran out of cheap vises or he's just too busy to post anymore cause he bought everything and magically made almost anything look like new.

if i hadn't brought him my huge vise to restore i bet i'd still be having him restore my vises. he restored this Rock Island 577 that is 150 pounds and told me his arms were sore for almost a month. also my 577 was too big for him to haul out to his rotting stump in his yard.

speaking of Rock Islands Balane weighed one of his 519x's and a similar Rock Island a couple years ago that weighed the same.

anybody have a rock island vise that looks sort of like their 519x to weigh and post the results? post up pictures and data if you do.

thanks in advance

Smokeshow69 · May 2, 2017

drivesitfar said:
Smoke: i'm pretty sure Balane didn't disappear from GJ because of razzing cause he would paint his vises the color of whatever paint he picked up for $1 that week at garage sales. he did amazing work and my guess is that he just ran out of cheap vises or he's just too busy to post anymore cause he bought everything and magically made almost anything look like new.

if i hadn't brought him my huge vise to restore i bet i'd still be having him restore my vises. he restored this Rock Island 577 that is 150 pounds and told me his arms were sore for almost a month. also my 577 was too big for him to haul out to his rotting stump in his yard.

speaking of Rock Islands Balane weighed one of his 519x's and a similar Rock Island a couple years ago that weighed the same.

anybody have a rock island vise that looks sort of like their 519x to weigh and post the results? post up pictures and data if you do.

thanks in advance

Haha I love the stump pictures! I told my wife about it and to this day she asks me , whenever I find something good if I am going to take a picture of it on a stump [emoji3] I do remember when he weighed the R.I. And said they weighed nearly identical! I don't have any proof but my vote is either rock island or columbian for manufacture of these works of art!

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scooternut · May 2, 2017

I found that Craftsman fixed base pic while doing a random google images search for some other vise.

Smokeshow69 · May 2, 2017

There is a fixed base for sale right now on eBay with original paint on it. It will not work in my garage so I am letting you know about it...item number below

282449677751

If some one gets it let us know. I am keeping an eye out for a swivel base one

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Shiftless · May 2, 2017

Yeah, I saw that a couple of days ago and wrote to the guy about shipping. Since it won't fit in 2 flat rate boxes, shipping to me in CA is almost a hundred bucks. That cools my enthusiasm.

Smokeshow69 · May 2, 2017

Yeah the shipping is a little high in my opinion !

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Smokeshow69 · May 5, 2017

Just found another 5191 on eBay but it is not a swivel model...priced way high in my opinion. What is the pricing on these vises these days ? I am keeping an eye out for one and have a good idea of vintage vise pricing but don't know the market rate on these ?

182543331557-item number

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drivesitfar · May 5, 2017

Smoke: that seller is definitely optimistic for it's size and condition, but if it was in better shape and maybe a 5197 that wouldn't be that far off.

they don't seem to pop up often or at all in the PNW and i thought i'd find more than the 4 I have in the last 10 years of searching a lot for any vise. have you seen one in person yet so you can get an idea what all the fuss is about?

good luck in your search.

Smokeshow69 · May 5, 2017

No sadly I have never seen one in person but I can tell they are well made! I would love to find one to restore and use! My thing is I have to find a swivel due to my work bench lay out and was wanting to get a good idea on market prices for when I do find one[emoji1]

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drivesitfar · May 5, 2017

ALL: we've made some progress on the Wilton date stamps and here's the link to it's thread to see how that research is coming along.

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=269079&highlight=wilton+date+stamp

maybe some of you that might have the time and the knowledge to find out more about Rock Island's relationship with Sears after WWII. we know Rock Island built Craftsman vises in the late 1920's and 1930's and then Reed built Craftsman's vises.

since the 519x's resemble Rock Island and Reed's features along with Starrett or Morgan's handle i wonder if any research on those companie's might get us an answer?

hope you are all having a great weekend and i'd like to find a 5198 to buy soon JUST BECAUSE.

cheers

jrobb316 · May 6, 2017

I have a craftsman 5197. The comparable rock island would be a 574, which I do not own. Side by side they even bear a resemblance. I can post up pics of the 5197 if someone has a 574.

drivesitfar · May 6, 2017

JRobb: sure post up pictures of your Craftsman 5197 when you have time and can you post a few pictures of the date stamp too?

JR & ALL: here's a rough picture of my Rock Island 574 so if anybody else has some nice Rock Island vises to post please do so maybe we can make the comparisons.

have a great weekend

CrotalusAtrox · May 6, 2017

Here is a 5191 I refinished/ restored. Date code is 3 of 49 I have a Rock Island and the similarities of the jaws and date stamp would have me believe that Rock island had something to do with these.

G20-Budo · May 10, 2017

CrotalusAtrox said:
Here is a 5191 I refinished/ restored. Date code is 3 of 49 I have a Rock Island and the similarities of the jaws and date stamp would have me believe that Rock island had something to do with these.

Great job on the restore (no surprise, I've seen your work in person.. top notch!). :thumbup:

drivesitfar · Jun 10, 2017

CA: it looks like you passed our 5191 along to Shiftless and i heard he's very happy with it. you've taken apart, stripped, and worked on a ton of old quality vises in the last year and just curious how you think the 519x's compare to other vises in quality and design?

also was your sleeve holding the main screw on to the dynamic threaded like mine have been?

ALL: anybody have a 519x vise to post pictures of and the date stamps on the slides to add to our data base please post them with your comments about how you like or dislike or compare these to other vises.

thanks

ckadams00 · Jun 10, 2017

drivesitfar here is my Craftsman/Rock Island 5152 - looks very similar to yours.

Shiftless · Jun 11, 2017

Drives:
You certainly pay close attention to all the vise related postings. You are correct. :beer:

That vise sits proudly on my display shelf.

drivesitfar · Jun 11, 2017

Shift: first off i like Vises in case you didn't already know. secondly it helps my memory and i don't want to get like my old relatives that remember 80 years ago better than yesterday. also i like paying attention to what other members like in case i might have something cool to send them some day. i had a lot more SENIOR MOMENTS before i joined GJ and i really think being involved on all the threads i am besides the vise threads really helps and i do have a lot more memory retention now. i bet GJ helps your memory too??

doesn't CA do a nice job spiffing up his old vises he finds?

ALL: we don't seem to have much new information on the maker of these 519x's, but as we've said it does lean to Rock Island making them with the date stamps, part #'s, quality and time frame of when Rock Island quit making vises and when the 519x's stopped being made.

thoughts?

Shiftless · Jun 11, 2017

Drives
Yes indeed on all counts.

notlob · Jun 16, 2017

Pretty, but out of my price range:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Craftsman-Vise-Swivel-Vise-Anvil-Bench-Vise-Model-5196-5197-Machinist-/182622899311

fullthrottle24 · Jun 16, 2017

So here is the vise with date stamp for the record.

skrap metal · Jun 17, 2017

neat vise

LesserSon · Jun 17, 2017

I like the vise, but I think the silver paint all over the jaws, anvil and handle is sort of a turn-off. Certainly not added value to the tune of $400.
2018 Easter Egg Hunt

mcmlvif100 · Jun 18, 2017

Not mine and no affiliation but perhaps a GJ'r who is closer might be interested. Looks pretty good in the pictures.

Craftsman 4" Swivel Vise - $140

https://detroit.craigslist.org/wyn/tls/6174496476.html

Craftsman 4" Swivel Vise Made in USA weighs 70 lbs. $140.00

mcmlvif100 · Jun 18, 2017

LesserSon said:
I like the vise, but I think the silver paint all over the jaws, anvil and handle is sort of a turn-off. Certainly not added value to the tune of $400.

Am not sure that it's paint. The textured look of the handles and swivel locks and the end of the main screw look (to me) like they may have been sandblasted. Similarly, the burnished look on the ends of the jaws might be from wire brushing, and the anvil looks like it might have been polished.

Paint or not, I am in agreement on the price with it being more than I would spend. I think that the vise in my previous post is the same model and size except for the CL vise has the Craftsman Heritage logo which I would prefer. If it was closer, I would have probably bought it at $140

CrotalusAtrox · Jun 18, 2017

drivesitfar said:
CA: it looks like you passed our 5191 along to Shiftless and i heard he's very happy with it. you've taken apart, stripped, and worked on a ton of old quality vises in the last year and just curious how you think the 519x's compare to other vises in quality and design?

also was your sleeve holding the main screw on to the dynamic threaded like mine have been?

ALL: anybody have a 519x vise to post pictures of and the date stamps on the slides to add to our data base please post them with your comments about how you like or dislike or compare these to other vises.

thanks

I believe the 519x series is as good as any production vise out there yes even Wiltons. They are over built and the tolerance are tight like Athol/Starrett. Yes is was threaded.

drivesitfar · Jun 18, 2017

NOTLOB: not sure what current values are for a 5197, but i bet it's better than any 4.5 inch vise produced today so what do they cost. of course you probably don't need that one so your value will always be different than a person's that NEEDS a vise. it might be a bit high, but these things are not growing on trees as you and i and others know that would still like to own one or two more.

MCM: the $140 vise you posted is smaller than the 5197 and it's in a vise rich area of Michigan. if that was close to me i'd probably buy it and i don't NEED A VISE. i like the HERITAGE badged ones better too.

CA: thanks for your 411 and happy to hear you agree with my thoughts cause you are taking apart these old vises almost daily and really get a hands on look at all the different vise's quality and mechanics.

ALL: anybody else have date stamps to post with their 519x's and or thoughts about their quality or who might have made them?

Smokeshow69 · Jul 23, 2017

Just to bump this great thread I picked up this 5196 yesterday! I had never seen one in person and they are very well built ! I am going to clean it up and put the girl to use! I will post some date pictures once it is cleaned up!

Here it is pictured next to my rock island craftsman 5161 and you can see how much bigger it is even though the jaw width is only 1/2"

After getting these side by side I would agree they are made by rock island! To many design characteristics not to be!

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drivesitfar · Sep 20, 2017

Smoke: better late than never. nice find and happy to see that you finally get to touch and own a 519x of your own. it's a beast for a fairly small vise isn't it?

just curious what the screws were used for that are not a factory option?

I am leaning a lot towards Rock Island, but would still like to see some more facts before we say for certain that Rock Island made these awesome vises.

cheers

Smokeshow69 · Sep 20, 2017

drivesitfar said:
Smoke: better late than never. nice find and happy to see that you finally get to touch and own a 519x of your own. it's a beast for a fairly small vise isn't it?

just curious what the screws were used for that are not a factory option?

I am leaning a lot towards Rock Island, but would still like to see some more facts before we say for certain that Rock Island made these awesome vises.

cheers

The screws are for smooth jaws but I already have a smooth jaw vise so when it gets restored the holes will get welded shut ! Getting this one makes me want more [emoji16] the search is on

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DadsTools · Sep 20, 2017

drivesitfar said:
HONZA: i'm not sure when the US started building factories in Taiwan or having Japan make stuff for us, but it wasn't long after WWII. if you have more information on that let us know.

Anybody know when the US started importing from Japan. or Taiwan? not certain this is where these vises were made, but since they have parts of several other vises unless Sears owned all the patents my thinking is the patents wouldn't have been worldwide back then so all these cool ideas could have been put into one vise.

According to my experience with other collectibles:
After the war, Japan was forbidden to export anything for two years. From 1947 to 1952, all exports BY LAW were required to bear the marks "Occupied Japan" or "Made in Occupied Japan." If an item could not be marked that way because of the material, it had to have a stamp or a sticker. In instances like mid-fifties Christmas lighting, the mark dcould be on the packaging. Even 1952 and after, they were still required to be marked Japan in some fashion. Exports of the 1950s to early 1960s comprised mostly five-and-dime items, some ceramics and even fishing tackle. One of the tools that were exported in the early 1950s was the Allenite brand--I have one of these early Allenite 1/2" drive pear-head ratchets, made as a knockoff to Proto/Penen. The selector cam is stamped metal and had to be re-adjusted and the original bolts were rotted and I replaced them with stainless (weird, but the threaded holes were SAE not metric!), but once refurbished is a killer ratchet with almost no backdrag. Hey...you figure they knew how to make formidable battleships and Zeros, so they had to have some idea how to build quality. Even so, the wrench is clearly marked Japan. If any vise was imported from them during that time, it would have had Japan marked in it.

As far as Sears, I know they started importing Japan tools (with the BF code) starting around 1962 when Japan began to concentrate on higher end products like electronics and moved away from the dime-store stuff, leaving that market more and more to Hong Kong and Taiwan (the early Taiwan imports are marked "Republic of China, Taiwan). I personally don't know of any Sears hand tools made in Japan prior to the early 60s.

Maui · Nov 2, 2017

I just purchased a Rock Island 591 vise yesterday. After unscrewing one of the jaws to clean it up with my wire wheel I noticed the design of the jaws on this vise look exactly like the jaws on my Craftsman 5195. So I unscrewed one of the jaws from the Craftsman and examined the screws that were used to secure it in place. They are identical. See below. The Craftsman screw appears on the right in the photo. Rock Island is the only vise manufacturer that I am aware of that used machine screws with that particular taper on the heads. Nobody else used them. They are unique to Rock Island as far as I know. I tried securing the screw from the Craftsman into the jaw of the Rock Island 591 and it was a perfect fit. And the screw from the Rock island fit perfectly in the Craftsman jaw.

In my opinion these Craftsman vises were manufactured for Sears by Rock Island.

Maui

Rileysan · Nov 2, 2017

Maui said:
I just purchased a Rock Island 5191 vise yesterday. After unscrewing one of the jaws to clean it up with my wire wheel I noticed the design of the jaws on this vise look exactly like the jaws on my Craftsman 5195. So I unscrewed one of the jaws from the Craftsman and examined the screws that were used to secure it in place. They are identical. See below. The Craftsman screw appears on the right in the photo. Rock Island is the only vise manufacturer that I am aware of that used machine screws with that particular taper on the heads. Nobody else used them. They are unique to Rock Island as far as I know. I tried securing the screw from the Craftsman into the jaw of the Rock Island 5191 and it was a perfect fit. And the screw from the Rock island fit perfectly in the Craftsman jaw.

In my opinion these Craftsman vises were manufactured for Sears by Rock Island.

Maui

Now that is an interesting find! Nice detective work!

Brian

Smokeshow69 · Nov 2, 2017

Rileysan said:
Now that is an interesting find! Nice detective work!

Brian

I thought about checking the thread pitch on my ri vise and my 5196 when I had them both... I never got around to doing it before I sold my ri...good detective work Maui !

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Hiatt1991 · Nov 2, 2017

Such awesome vises. The lead screw cap reminds me of a piston.

econotrk · Nov 3, 2017

Maui said:
I just purchased a Rock Island 5191 vise yesterday. After unscrewing one of the jaws to clean it up with my wire wheel I noticed the design of the jaws on this vise look exactly like the jaws on my Craftsman 5195. So I unscrewed one of the jaws from the Craftsman and examined the screws that were used to secure it in place. They are identical. See below. The Craftsman screw appears on the right in the photo. Rock Island is the only vise manufacturer that I am aware of that used machine screws with that particular taper on the heads. Nobody else used them. They are unique to Rock Island as far as I know. I tried securing the screw from the Craftsman into the jaw of the Rock Island 5191 and it was a perfect fit. And the screw from the Rock island fit perfectly in the Craftsman jaw.

In my opinion these Craftsman vises were manufactured for Sears by Rock Island.

Maui

This is a great clue Maui, thanks for digging that up.

The date stamp on top of the slide is another important clue.

As they add up it makes me lean into the Rock Island camp.

drivesitfar · Nov 3, 2017

MAUI: thanks for taking the time to figure that out and i'm still leaning towards Rock Island as the maker of all the 519x's. did the jaws fit too?

if you have two vises that are similar jaw width 4, 4.5 or 5 inch can you weigh them cause if i recall correctly Balane weighed his 519x and Rock island with same width jaw and they both weighed the same.

ALL: since Morgan might have similar jaws and maybe Starrett too if any of you might have a similar size one to test with your Craftsman 519x that might eliminate them from the mix. it's been a while since i took a Morgan or Starrett apart I can't recall if their screws were angled, but i thought they were and i no longer have a Starrett to try. i'm not sure exactly where my 5196 is either so if any of you have those sitting on a bench to do a quick test to let us know please do.

cheers and we'll figure this out yet.

EOC_Jason · Nov 4, 2017

Back in the day the tapers were different angles than what is common today. I remember I had an old Desmond that needed new screws, I had to hand-grind some modern screws to get a matching taper, what a PITA. But short of having a shop custom-machine them it's the only economical way as there is no source that I've found that stocks old-style screws with those no-longer-standard tapers.

Maui said:
I just purchased a Rock Island 5191 vise yesterday. After unscrewing one of the jaws to clean it up with my wire wheel I noticed the design of the jaws on this vise look exactly like the jaws on my Craftsman 5195. So I unscrewed one of the jaws from the Craftsman and examined the screws that were used to secure it in place. They are identical. See below. The Craftsman screw appears on the right in the photo. Rock Island is the only vise manufacturer that I am aware of that used machine screws with that particular taper on the heads. Nobody else used them. They are unique to Rock Island as far as I know. I tried securing the screw from the Craftsman into the jaw of the Rock Island 5191 and it was a perfect fit. And the screw from the Rock island fit perfectly in the Craftsman jaw.

Maui · Nov 4, 2017

Thanks Rileysan and Smokeshow69.

Drives, even though the jaws are different widths they do physically swap out. But the screw holes obviously don't line up. I've attached some photos of both vises.

Econotrk, the Craftsman 5195 was built in June 1949. The Rock Island 591 was built in November 1944. Note that both vises are stamped in the same place on the slide and the 4 in the both date stamps is the same. I don't see anything here that suggests Rock Island didn't build these.

Craftsman 5198. Who made these awesome vises!!

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