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Move over Snap-on have a viable competitor for ratchets

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ssdave

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The thread was hijacked entirely to something different; so I'm modifying my original post to match the thread. Here goes the new topic to match where the thread goes:

Okay, it's been a bit slow lately. I'll start another of the standard threads so that the trolls can have something to do.

Here's the questions to fit the thread:

Is it okay to warranty old snap-on tools that you buy at garage sales and ebay?

Craftsman does this, so they're a good competitor for those that want to do this. Does this make it right to do it to Snap-on?

What does the Snap-on warranty say, and do they really enforce it? Do you avail yourself of their lack of enforcement?

How do you all justify to yourself, behavior that you know isn't moral?

Can you tell the quality of a tool from a picture posted on an internet forum?

If good quality tools never break, then how come is generous warranty service the best feature to use to evaluate your tools?
 
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snooter

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Did you order repair kit?....when it breaks can you take to koken truck and get free replacement.....snap on is high dollar and there screwdrivers do ****...never did like them...but its 2 days for me for a repair kit and i just turned in a 25plus year old black hard handled screwdriver that was in pieces and they replaced free....i love hozan, vessel (screwdrives are my go too), eight tool...even have some japan off brand screwdrivers that took me 4 weeks to get, hero tool are fantastic terminal crimpers....but when it breaks they aint sending me free....and yes thst koken kit looks like nice stuff and i intend to buy a few for the kids
 
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Mr_B

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^
Self warranty, nothing better than that .
Do you really get value from snapons inbuilt warranty pricing .
In my 30+ years of using tools professionally I not broke enough basic hand tools find warranty a major concern .
A busted ratchet not going put my shop out of action and repair parts or replacements can be arranged as quick as need dictates .

Koken specialist socketry and few of the ratchets are outstanding tools and incredible value .
 
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Yarpo

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I've been meaning to buy some koken stuff for awhile I just keep forgetting. That's a great looking ratchet. :thumbup:

Do they make higher tooth count ratchets? As smooth as a ratchet may be 24 teeth just might not cut it for many applications
 
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Tallpilot

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Yarpo said:
I've been meaning to buy some koken stuff for awhile I just keep forgetting. That's a great looking ratchet. :thumbup:

Do they make higher tooth count ratchets? As smooth as a ratchet may be 24 teeth just might not cut it for many applications
Click to expand...

I know...enough people on here keep talking about these damn things I'm eventually going to have to try one.

I like the story about the Snap-on driver who doesn't even know Zephyr makes their bits. I know they teach you in sales school you are supposed to sell what you have not what the customer wants but wow.
 
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M6erfan

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Yarpo said:
I've been meaning to buy some koken stuff for awhile I just keep forgetting. That's a great looking ratchet. :thumbup:

Do they make higher tooth count ratchets? As smooth as a ratchet may be 24 teeth just might not cut it for many applications
Click to expand...


Their Zeal line has 36 teeth.
 
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shteii01

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ssdave said:
Only thing I don't like is bit holder isn't magnetic, it's snap-ring. Holds tighter, but harder to change out. Actually might be an advantage, sometimes the magnetic one loses the bit if it fits tight in the fastener.
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Illustrating that.

I work for company that builds factory conveyors. Whenever we do job for medical/food industry, everything is stainless: frames, brackets, bolts, nuts, etc. So magnetic tools would be worthless. I got Koken nut holder sockets (they have little ball detents on the inside) just in case.
 
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Samuel D

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Just eyeballing the hinge proportions, the Snap-on looks maybe three times stronger despite being built for smaller bits.

I guess you need a massively overbuilt hinge if you’re Snap-on and warrantied against not just manufacturing defects but unlimited abuse by gorillas. What if anything maintains hinge friction over the life of the tool in these two designs? Springs?
 
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shteii01

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Samuel D said:
Just eyeballing the hinge proportions, the Snap-on looks maybe three times stronger despite being built for smaller bits.

I guess you need a massively overbuilt hinge if you’re Snap-on and warrantied against not just manufacturing defects but unlimited abuse by gorillas. What if anything maintains hinge friction over the life of the tool in these two designs? Springs?
Click to expand...
They probably reusing hinge and head designs. So the outside dimensions are the same for variety of flex head products. Just in this case the head is a bit holder instead of square drive. Probably big economy in manufacturing since they only need different head.
 
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tym

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Samuel D said:
Just eyeballing the hinge proportions, the Snap-on looks maybe three times stronger despite being built for smaller bits.

I guess you need a massively overbuilt hinge if you’re Snap-on and warrantied against not just manufacturing defects but unlimited abuse by gorillas. What if anything maintains hinge friction over the life of the tool in these two designs? Springs?
Click to expand...
Yeah, the hinge on the Ko-Ken does look a little dainty, now that you mention it.
 
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impactims

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Move over snap-on?

Somehow I doubt that ko-ken is going to dethrone snap on as the industry leader any time soon. Just because you bought this ratchet on amazon Japan and like it doesn't mean snap on is going to be moving over...
 
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measuredtwice

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ssdave said:
No luck in US, but amazon Japan had one, and only wanted $14 for it, plus $7.30 postage. Got here in 6 days. After I bought the one in stock, the price went up to $90, and now has dropped to about $65. Amazon pricing is weird.
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You got a good deal. Probably was sitting in inventory forever. But now they are are out of stock with a long lead time.

shteii01 said:
Illustrating that.

I work for company that builds factory conveyors. Whenever we do job for medical/food industry, everything is stainless: frames, brackets, bolts, nuts, etc. So magnetic tools would be worthless. I got Koken nut holder sockets (they have little ball detents on the inside) just in case.
Click to expand...

Nice example. There are exceptions--some stainless is magnetic. For example, Wera sells stainless insert bits that are magnetic.

BarryWells said:
Franks tools has them I believe
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I was looking at his site earlier. Do you know if he keeps a stock or special orders the Koken stuff?
 
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Wamsutta

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Why did Ko-ken put just one single groove in the handle? I would have been more impressed if they left it groove-less.
 
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ex-x-fire

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I went another way, GearWrench bit set for ratcheting wrenches. 81602.
 

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Strouty

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The Koken is some very nice looking stuff, but I find the snap on easier to get and I agree the warranty is nice. My Snap On driver will warranty anything for just about any reason, he has taken used tools that I bought from yard sales and swapped them out because he thought the chrome looked awful.

Mr_B said:
In my 30+ years of using tools professionally I not broke enough basic hand tools find warranty a major concern.
Click to expand...

You aren't doing it right.......
 
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shteii01

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jgromada said:
my question is where on the page does it translate to English?
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On Amazon website scroll all the way down:


attachment.php
 

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rick carpenter

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Try Zephyr, Apex, and Wright for 5/16 bits. None are going to have probably all the selection you want from one mfr though. I got a Wright 3/8 drive 5/16 hex impact bit holder and hex bit from HD to test the waters for my 5/16 quest. The hex bit in it is thicker by a few thou over the Apex bits I bought and has a 'ridge' machined into it to make for a nice press-tight fit. It also has a set screw depression that the Apex bits don't. The Zephyrs don't look to have that either, but I can get those machined into them.
 
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JBH

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ssdave said:
It's every bit as good a ratchet as Snap-on makes.
Click to expand...

That's not really fair to the Koken. Comparing 1/4" drive (the only Snapon I have), Koken is a far more refined tool than Dual72-called-80, and Koken has considerably better unit-to-unit consistency.
 
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M6erfan

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Wamsutta said:
Why did Ko-ken put just one single groove in the handle? I would have been more impressed if they left it groove-less.
Click to expand...

I'd be even more impressed if Ko-ken made them with their awesome knurled handle.
 
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visionguru

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JBH said:
That's not really fair to the Koken. Comparing 1/4" drive (the only Snapon I have), Koken is a far more refined tool than Dual72-called-80, and Koken has considerably better unit-to-unit consistency.
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You are kidding, right?

In terms of workmanship, Nepros is obviously better than Snap On, But Snap On seems still a level above KTC and of course Koken.

For ratchets, I pay attention to the following details:
(1) sharpness/uniformness of engravings/stamping.
(2) the finish quality of the direction switch and the area under it.
(3) ratchet design ingenuity.

The Koken ratchet seems very old design. The stamping is crude, the direction selector is generic, the area under the selector is rough.

Just from the pictures, Koken is more like Gearwrench type of quality, not a match for Snap On. Frankly, I'm not sure if they can compete with S.K. or Proto.
From the company size, Snap On should have far superior equipments and R&D.
 
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M6erfan

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visionguru said:
You are kidding, right?

In terms of workmanship, Nepros is obviously better than Snap On, But Snap On seems still a level above KTC and of course Koken.

For ratchets, I pay attention to the following details:
(1) sharpness/uniformness of engravings/stamping.
(2) the finish quality of the direction switch and the area under it.
(3) ratchet design ingenuity.

The Koken ratchet seems very old design. The stamping is crude, the direction selector is generic, the area under the selector is rough.

Just from the pictures, Koken is more like Gearwrench type of quality, not a match for Snap On. Frankly, I'm not sure if they can compete with S.K. or Proto.
From the company size, Snap On should have far superior equipments and R&D.
Click to expand...

Wow, I don't even no where to begin on this one...

Do you even own a Koken ratchet? I do. And I have owned GW's (and SK, S-o, ProTo. All in my box currently)

-Engravings/stampings? Fine on mine. Deep and crisp. ???

-Finish quality of the direction switch? Is that a joke? It's a piece of steel lol. Unfinished area underneath the selector? So. I actually like the way it looks, it's chromed, just not polished. Purely a cosmetic feature.

-One of the best features of Ko-ken is the "lack of design ingenuity" as you put it. I fail to see where GW ratchet design has raised the bar in any way. Do you mean their big clunky high back drag 120XP's?

Company size and better R&D/Equipment? Pure conjecture. I'd bet you money that Koken has more ratchet and socket styles than S-o (and certainly GW) or any of the U.S manufacturers. Way more. Ko-ken has been innovating throughout there history as far as I can tell.

So if you like avg (at best) build quality and fully polished blingy chrome, by all means have fun with your GW.



As far as the OP goes, I don't think S-o is in any danger of Ko-ken putting them out of business.
 
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Rabid Badger

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visionguru said:
For ratchets, I pay attention to the following details:
(1) sharpness/uniformness of engravings/stamping.
(2) the finish quality of the direction switch and the area under it.
(3) ratchet design ingenuity.
Click to expand...

Wow. Functionality doesn't even make the top three, huh?
 
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M6erfan

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Rabid Badger said:
Wow. Functionality doesn't even make the top three, huh?
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Obviously GW/SK/S-o/ProTo wrenches are better than KTC/Stahlwille/Hazet/Gedore because the former are all fully polished and the others are satin finished. Come on man, smarten up!!!

:bounce:
 
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Mr_B

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Strouty said:
You aren't doing it right.......
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seems like i doing it right, still in business and still got full compliment of tools and equipment .
one of reasons i not big fan on snapon sockets and wrenches is due the plating .

I get Koken pretty easy, either online or via independent local tool truck 'captain tools' , he been going close to 40 years and i still using 1/4 and 3/8 socket rail sets i got from him good 25yrs ago .
 
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KnurledNut

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A locking option on any flex head bit ratchet would make it much better in my book.
 
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impactims

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visionguru said:
You are kidding, right?

For ratchets, I pay attention to the following details:
(1) sharpness/uniformness of engravings/stamping.
(2) the finish quality of the direction switch and the area under it.
(3) ratchet design ingenuity..
Click to expand...

Ingenuity, the finish of the direction switch and engravings taking the number 1 spot.

I can think of many things far more important than this, to me anyways.

To each his own. Good luck on your search for the ratchet with perfect engravings and stampings.
 
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mr.lemons

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impactims said:
Somehow I doubt that ko-ken is going to dethrone snap on as the industry leader any time soon. Just because you bought this ratchet on amazon Japan and like it doesn't mean snap on is going to be moving over...
Click to expand...

I think Stanley B&D is the industry leader unfortunately. :(
 
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visionguru

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impactims said:
Ingenuity, the finish of the direction switch and engravings taking the number 1 spot.

I can think of many things far more important than this, to me anyways.

To each his own. Good luck on your search for the ratchet with perfect engravings and stampings.
Click to expand...

I'm talking about workmanship only, and no need to go to functionality yet. I mentioned the 3 things, because those are quite obvious for everyone to see.

Crude stamping is a hall mark of cheap tools, the edges of lettering/log have obvious signs of metal deformation. High grade tools tend to have sharp stamping/engravings.

That Koken direction switch looks the same as that on many cheap ratchets. The rough finish under the switch will be grease/dirt magnet and harder to clean, obvious a corner cutting move. Koken is still making 36-teeth ratchets, some with ugly black disk on top. Yeah, that's ingenuity. Are Koken ratchets sealed like Snap On? That's an important feature for an auto mechanic.

I understand some people hate big corporations, such as Snap On and Gearwrench. IMHO, Snap On sets the bar for highend grade mechanical tools, Gearwrench is the standard for entry level pro tools. In the past 20 years, Gearwrench seems the one with more impressive innovations, ratcheting wrenches, and 3 degree swing arch ratchets.

I don't have a Koken tool, and do not plan to buy one. I'm already fully equipped with Snap On/Gearwrench ratchets, plus Carlyles and some no-names. From pictures I can already tell what Koken is: upper middle grade at best, with so so workmanship.
 
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Handyandy23

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visionguru said:
I don't have a Koken tool, and do not plan to buy one. I'm already fully equipped with Snap On/Gearwrench ratchets, plus Carlyles and some no-names. From pictures I can already tell what Koken is: upper middle grade at best, with so so workmanship.
Click to expand...

I don't own any Koken tools either, but this kind of invalidates your opinion completely. "From pictures" ??? They're tools you can't even buy in a store here so it's not like you can even put your hands on them to have an opinion.

One telling thing for me is that every person who owns a Koken ratchet loves it and says it's their favorite. I've never seen someone say they have a Koken and found it to be overhyped, or GW-level. That's worth way more than your opinion of the finish of a selector switch from a picture three feet away.
 
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Mr_B

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^^
Koken have inovation in socketry that no one else has yet to replicate .
While tooth count on ratchets and finish might not be snapon bling factor the ratchet smooth feel is pretty unique, can't say i used any other tooth ratchet with same feel and low drag.
would of liked seen them do 60 tooth with same principles.
They certainly a step above gearwrench and carlyle and even have socketry options that even snapon don't cover .
classic case of never use never know ...
 
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