J H Williams vintage hand tools

outofbounds · Feb 27, 2020

misterbill said:
I know Lugz has a much more complete set but I've been cobbling together some WWII-era Williams 3/8" bits, too. Aside from the harder to find speeder, adapters, sliding tee, deep sockets I'm just missing the B-140 universal joint and the 1/2" B-1216 and 11/16" (non-shiny) B-1222 sockets.

Bill

Looks like you're well on your way, Bill!

Oldtuleguy · Feb 27, 2020

Nice stuff mrbill!

Private Lugnutz · Feb 27, 2020

misterbill said:
I know Lugz has a much more complete set but I've been cobbling together some WWII-era Williams 3/8" bits, too. Aside from the harder to find speeder, adapters, sliding tee, deep sockets I'm just missing the B-140 universal joint and the 1/2" B-1216 and 11/16" (non-shiny) B-1222 sockets.

Thanks for the props, Billiam! You're making great progress on that Bantam set.

Do you need a box? As you may recall, I have an extra. I bought it on impulse (all Unaiu's fault!) without fully thinking it through. I saw that wartime 40's decal under the lid (if you recall, my 99% wartime 40's set is in a c.1947 to 50's box) and pulled the trigger in haste, because it's a No. 5 box, and way too small for my No. 7-A set, which is the largest Williams made. Let me know. As you can see, the outside is roached, and the bottom of the compartment is really rough, but the lid and decal are superb. I was going to do my "barn find" re-paint treatment to the outside and the bottom, but leave the lid alone.

misterbill · Mar 1, 2020

I picked up these two #37 "Superior" DOEs yesterday. While the milled openings (1-1/16" x 1-1/4") are identical, they illustrate the evolution between the USS and SAE sizing. The older (Brooklyn) version is stamped with 5/8" x 3/4" while the later "Forged in USA" has the 1-1/16" x 1-1/4".

Bill

leg17 · Mar 1, 2020

I think they are both USS.
The difference is the markings.
Used to mark the bolt size, today we mark the opening size.

David Jackson · Mar 1, 2020

Those short levers --- they are very frustrating in actual use I have found, inspite of their great provenance from across the sea!

David Jackson · Mar 1, 2020

I have some J.H. Williams pieces, some offset box are nice because they are old. I will get some photos up one of these days. Alloy Artifacts is a great help to me to see what to look for.

d42jeep · Mar 1, 2020

Here are a couple of Williams wrenches I found yesterday. The DBE is a GMTK correct 41-W-605.
-Don

David Jackson · Mar 2, 2020

That set is amazing!

lardy1 · Mar 3, 2020

I ran across this little ditty the other day. I saw Lutz Tool And File on the handle so I followed that and found they are still in business. I didn't see much history or product information and I thought I'd clean it up and show it here.

I very rarely touch a wire wheel to a tool but this thing seemed pretty unimportant so I wheeled it. Beneath the rust and crud there is a William's stamp on it. Owner modification, perhaps? A Williams/Lutz business connection?

I'm not sure it's a socket spinner. Whatever is left for retention on the shaft wasn't a ball detent, I don't think. I'm thinking it may be a dedicated quarter inch driver used on machinery.

Private Lugnutz · Mar 3, 2020

The WWII guys here collect Lutz and other (Parker-Kalon Shur-Grip, Disston, Link, etc) tool and file handles for the GMTK. Two each in two different sizes. In the GMTK they were used for a set of various files. But they are file and tool handles, used also for carbon scrapers, scribes, and just about anything else with a shank that will fit. I could be wrong, but I suspect that was an owner's contraption there, lardy, probably after the handle on that spinner broke, not a factory joint venture between Williams and Lutz. Either way, it's a very cool find.

d42jeep · Mar 3, 2020

I have a tool buddy in Tennessee that I send all the made up tools I find using Lutz handles. I have a few non-Lutz but similar handles. The last picture are of some his collection.
-Don

David Jackson · Mar 4, 2020

I have a few J. H. Williams duohex wrenches. I got interested in these as I had one I really liked in my toolbox for 40 or 50 years and wondered if there were other sizes and now I know that there are and I would like to expand my little collection in this small category. Photos are of what I have now. I don't see them posted for sale any more, wonder why.

David Jackson · Mar 4, 2020

I think the chrome with patent is the earliest, maybe black is wartime? Maybe gray paint just postwar? And maybe no paint the newest? The one with no paint is in the previous post, it is the one I have had the longest.

Oldtuleguy · Mar 6, 2020

An elusive volume socket set

outofbounds · Mar 6, 2020

Oldtuleguy said:
An elusive volume socket set

Elusive to most, but it seems that not a lot gets by you.......... :bowdown:

outofbounds · Mar 6, 2020

This little 310M "almost-set" turned up today for a peanut or two as part of a Facebook odd lot. Looks like the sockets are all there. Not sure what might be missing besides the ratchet....

Oldtuleguy · Mar 6, 2020

May not have had a ratchet. Maybe a crossbar.

outofbounds · Mar 6, 2020

Oldtuleguy said:
May not have had a ratchet. Maybe a crossbar.

Thanks! I'll cure myself of lazy habits and work the catalog circuit....someday!

Oldtuleguy · Mar 6, 2020

310m was basically just a nut spinner set. Here is an earlier 9/32 drive version

wrenchguy · Mar 9, 2020

Down to 4!
Oval logo part numbers wanted. thanks 4 any help.
1
7
35
994

David Jackson · Mar 13, 2020

I have two vintage Williams box wrenches which have numbers I do not find in the table of more or less universal socket size numbers presented by Alloy Artifacts. I wonder if anyone has any thoughts on that. I emailed AA but I don't know if they pay attention to this sort of input.
Snaps attached. As everyone knows, Chrome Alloy comes before the Alloy Steel in years produced.

GalaxyRat · Mar 13, 2020

Does anyone have any idea if this was from a set? Or a one-off for something specific?

Sent from my SM-G973U using The Garage Journal mobile app

3baygarage · Mar 14, 2020

GalaxyRat said:
Does anyone have any idea if this was from a set? Or a one-off for something specific?

Sent from my SM-G973U using The Garage Journal mobile app

Nice find. Being a special order, likely a one off and not part of a set. That opening looks something like a gas meter shutoff wrench.

Old Radar · Mar 15, 2020

I picked these three Williams sets up this week.

The Flaring/Pipe Cutting set (#165) is seemingly unused and complete except for the spare cutting wheel.

The two socket sets were missing a few things so I went back to the sale the next day and dug a little deeper--and came away with two more deep sockets and two more 6-pointers--one each 1/4" and 3/8" drives. Still no ratchets or drivers.

Here's where I get confused on what should be in the M-2, 1/4" set. Archive.org has a 1960 catalog with an M-2 set, but I think that is too early for a match for my set. The 1960 depicted box has only a single socket tray for the nine included sockets. My box has three separate sections, one of which is divided in two. But my box is clearly marked as M-2. This tells me they changed the composition of this set sometime after the 60's to possibly include the universal, two Phillips drivers, the 6" standard screwdriver, 2" extension, sliding T plus at least 6 each 6- and 12-point sockets. Whether they kept the spinner handle and/or the rib joint pliers, I have no idea.

However, I'm virtually certain the set shouldn't include any 3/8" drive sockets--yet three were in the box and I found a fourth the next day. No big deal--extras are always welcome, but I would like to know what actually came in this set.

The 1/4" sockets I have are:
6-point:
M-606; M-607; M-608, M-609; M-611; M-614--am I missing 10, 12, and 13 or do I have extras?
12-point:
M-1210; M-1211; M-1212; M-1214; M-1216; M-1218--again, do I have extras or am I missing some?

As for the deep socket set, the box has a sticker on the side "Metal Case TT-4" and I have sockets BD-1212; BD-1216; BD-1222; BD-1224, BD-1226, and BD-1228.
I figure I'm missing BD-1214; 1218; and 1220.

I think these boxes are no older than the '70s and possibly newer than that. Any help identifying the era and proper contents would be greatly appreciated!

d42jeep · Mar 15, 2020

As part of a partial S-K 1/4” drive set, eBay seller shamata threw in this 1/4” drive Williams socket as a freebie. As I cleaned it up I noticed some very unexpected markings, particularly since it is chrome plated. I threw it in my WW2 NAF toolbox although I believe it to be a postwar Navy socket.
-Don

Old Radar · Mar 15, 2020

Old Radar said:
Here's where I get confused on what should be in the M-2, 1/4" set. Archive.org has a 1960 catalog with an M-2 set, but I think that is too early for a match for my set. The 1960 depicted box has only a single socket tray for the nine included sockets. My box has three separate sections, one of which is divided in two. But my box is clearly marked as M-2. This tells me they changed the composition of this set sometime after the 60's to possibly include the universal, two Phillips drivers, the 6" standard screwdriver, 2" extension, sliding T plus at least 6 each 6- and 12-point sockets. Whether they kept the spinner handle and/or the rib joint pliers, I have no idea.

The 1/4" sockets I have are:
6-point:
M-606; M-607; M-608, M-609; M-611; M-614--am I missing 10, 12, and 13 or do I have extras?
12-point:
M-1210; M-1211; M-1212; M-1214; M-1216; M-1218--again, do I have extras or am I missing some?

I think these boxes are no older than the '70s and possibly newer than that. Any help identifying the era and proper contents would be greatly appreciated!

Upon further research on Alloy Artifacts, I found out the following (all quoted from AA with my underlining):

“Model numbers in the NM-series were used from late 1940 until about 1955, but then reverted back to the M-series for all 1/4-drive tools.”

“The 1/4-drive tools were using the "NM" prefix at that time, and the socket sets were listed as models NM-1 through NM-8. In the mid 1950s the 1/4-drive model numbers reverted to the "M" prefix, and the socket sets followed the change as well.”

“The NM-series sets from the late 1940s sometimes used the same style of metal case for several different collections. In particular, the case used for the NM-7 set also served for the NM-2, NM-5, and NM-6 sets…”

“In the late 1960s or early 1970s Williams updated its socket set model numbers again, this time giving them a "WS" prefix followed immediately by the drive size prefix. For example, 3/8-drive sets formed the "WSB" series, and 1/4-drive sets formed the "WSM" series. Our first reference for these sets is the Williams catalog No. 307, undated but from around 1970.”

“By this time Williams had also started giving model numbers to the tool boxes used for sets, and the boxes were listed separately so that they could be purchased empty if needed.”

I conclude therefore, my set may be older than I initially thought—NET 1955, but NLT 1970. If the practice of using a single box for multiple sets continued, then my Metal Case MC-3 could have been used for sets with more pieces.

Unless someone can come up with a catalog after 1960 and before 1970, I’ll have to assume my M-2 set came configured with the correct number and sizes of sockets as depicted on page 15 in the #504 catalog (1960).

It sure looks like a big box for a very sparse set. I'm missing all the big pieces--the ratchet, the spinner handle and the rib joint pliers.

I do happen to have a Japanese-made (Igarashi) rib-joint that I'll clean up and include until I can find a Williams.

misterbill · Mar 21, 2020

Through the very kind efforts of Lugz' (see Re: WWII Toolbox Refinishing - The "Barn Find" Look) I have a new home for my WWII-era Williams Bantam #5 set.

I’m missing the 1/2” (B-1216) socket and the 11/16” (B-1222) I have is a chrome placeholder. I also need the F-15/B-15 speeder, B-140 universal, B-30 offset (ell) and the B-20A tee handle.

Again, many thanks to Lugz for such a fine job.

Bill

Private Lugnutz · Mar 21, 2020

It already looks much better with some tools in it! :thumbup:

Let's fill that thing up when the plague simmers down.

Oldtuleguy · Mar 21, 2020

Looks good. Nice job on the decal.

Kev442 · Mar 21, 2020

I was in my 87 yo fathers basement this week when I noticed his Williams B1 set up on a shelf, not the workbench. I took it down to look it over as it has been around my whole life.

The ratchet was stuck, so I worked with it and it moved, but skipped pawls, then would stick again. My heart kinda jumped as I have always wanted to inherit this set.

I took it home with me to check things over. After soaking it with penetrating fluid, then lubing it with MM oil, it slowly flushed out the hardened grease and began to work better and better.

I put it to work on Wednesday on a couple things, then today I had the perfect job for it, removing transmission pan bolts. It got another bath in very black fluid, and completed the job. I'm not happy with the back drag yet, but this set, while looking very beat up has seen very little actual use, mainly repairing the lawn and garden equipment.

I'm pretty sure my dads rotten little kid stole the 6" Williams extension he had, but can anyone spot what else is wrong with this set?

The Williams 1960 catalog shows this exact set, which fits, as my parents bought their first house in 1962-3.

Oldtuleguy · Mar 21, 2020

Looks pretty complete other than extension

3baygarage · Mar 21, 2020

Looks like it may be complete as found.

Liking all the orange boxes.

Getting crafty there too Lugz

Kev442 · Mar 21, 2020

Take another look at the 4th socket from the left. Fooled me too.
It's a 7/16s snap on, no double lines. Well used, chrome almost gone, so the original one has been missing/broken for decades.

My Dad must have needed an extension and bought it. I know I've seen it in my stuff (yes, I'm the rotten little kid). It will show up later this Spring when I open up the pole building for the year and rejoin its siblings after 40 years.

HeelSpur · Mar 22, 2020

I'd like to thank Sqyards for the smallest wrench in the 700 series, S000.

DSCF2848 by wvwheaties, on Flickr

HeelSpur · Mar 22, 2020

Forgot the link for it, very first one;
http://www.wrenchingnews.com/industry-standard-wrenches/chart.html

David Jackson · Mar 27, 2020

What an interesting chart! I don't know much about such things but find it interesting that the numbers and opening sizes seem to fit my double box end Williams wrenches even though the category name is different. The numbers I could not find in AA seem to be here; will have to check more later. Many thanks!
DJ

Kev442 · Mar 27, 2020

Well, no need to return the set to Dads house. He went to hospice today.

I used the ratchet again to feel closer to him. It's getting a bit smoother.

3baygarage · Mar 29, 2020

Hey Kev. Prayers for you guys right now.

David Jackson · Mar 30, 2020

Dear Kev, Best wishes to you and your Dad.

J H Williams vintage hand tools

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