Clarification... are all outlets in shop required to be GFCI?

alfredeneuman · Jan 30, 2015

soob said:
I put four outlets (or at least four circuits, just two outlets) on the side of my shop to use for electric heat for my greenhouse. Am I really going to make that GFCI?

4 circuits and 2 outlets? You mean (2) 240V circuits?
If so, they don't need to be GFI protected.

_________________________________________
" Originally Posted by LifeLongWNYer View Post
You know guys, I have lived a long time working is a garage without GFI's and I am still alive. I "think" I am smart enough"

LOL :headshake

joe_padavano · Jan 30, 2015

LifeLongWNYer said:
Another fine example is printing "HOT CONTENTS" on a McDonald's coffee cup.

I'm certainly not a fan of government nanny-ism, but the "HOT CONTENTS" warning has nothing to do with the government and everything to do with the infamous McDonalds spilled coffee lawsuit. Part of the justification for the insane damages award in the trial was the fact that McDonalds did not warn the customer that the coffee was hot. :wtf:

Personally, I'm a big believer in personal responsibility (and evolution), but there are too many lawyers and stupid jurors in the world. FYI, that award was eventually dramatically reduced in the appeals, and I suspect most of it went to the lawyers, not the customer.

acer66 · Jan 30, 2015

joe_padavano said:
I'm certainly not a fan of government nanny-ism, but the "HOT CONTENTS" warning has nothing to do with the government and everything to do with the infamous McDonalds spilled coffee lawsuit. Part of the justification for the insane damages award in the trial was the fact that McDonalds did not warn the customer that the coffee was hot.

Personally, I'm a big believer in personal responsibility (and evolution), but there are too many lawyers and stupid jurors in the world. FYI, that award was eventually dramatically reduced in the appeals, and I suspect most of it went to the lawyers, not the customer.

Somewhat but the way I understand it the problem with the coffee was that it was way hotter than everywhere else for whatever reason and they had numerouse complains about that before the old lady burned herself.

Watch the documentry Hot Coffee if you have the time but I think we should save that coffee story for another thread and get back on the topic at hand.

Stuart in MN · Jan 30, 2015

I wonder if the forum software has a way to automatically block any reference to McDonald's and coffee...it seems like that old story has been brought up an awful lot lately.

acer66 · Jan 30, 2015

Stuart in MN said:
I wonder if the forum software has a way to automatically block any reference to McDonald's and coffee...it seems like that old story has been brought up an awful lot lately.

It would be nice if you could block posts with certain keywords.

But most likely I would block a lot of my own posts.

Speedy Petey · Jan 30, 2015

Fishplate said:
Don't they list wet locations, though? I recall there is an official definition of wet as opposed to damp...

The NEC lists locations, period.
Yes, most are potentially damp and wet locations, but only the location is mentioned. The poster I quoted mentioned them being required in "damp" locations, in quotes. This is simply not accurate.

If anyone is going to imply or state that something is required then they should be accurate about it.

soob · Jan 30, 2015

alfredeneuman said:
4 circuits and 2 outlets? You mean (2) 240V circuits?
If so, they don't need to be GFI protected.

Two duplex outlets with the connecting bars removed with each outlet connected to a different wire and breaker.

I don't know what to call that. But I am not about to risk my plants by depending on a GFCI in a greenhouse.

logical · Jan 30, 2015

soob said:
Two duplex outlets with the connecting bars removed with each outlet connected to a different wire and breaker.

I don't know what to call that. But I am not about to risk my plants by depending on a GFCI in a greenhouse.

I don't think anyone was suggesting you should. This thread is about garage outlets used for hand held power tools and such. Enjoy your "plants"...

James-W · Jan 30, 2015

soob said:
I don't know what to call that. But I am not about to risk my plants by depending on a GFCI in a greenhouse.

Gosh, I would have thought a greenhouse would be a place where you would want the protection a GFCI gives.

LifeLongWNYer · Jan 30, 2015

I brought up the hot coffee remark, and on reflection it guess it was not appropriate so I apologize for that.

BUT, I have heard many people argue both for, AND against, GFI's and still don't understand that problem could be caused by a reasonable man that they will prevent. The other side of the coin, is the guys that have them, and have had problems when they failed and needed to be replaced. Not only are they expensive, but replacing them adds to their cost.

I will be the only guy working in the garage, and BELIEVE ME, if I thought that my health, or life, was in danger of zapping myself I would use them. But, I've yet to see why I NEED them.

I'm a firefighter and draw a parallel the the NFPA and all the requirements that they force upon the industry. To cite one example, anyone ever see a fire truck any SOONER now that the lime green chevrons are mandated on their rear? If you can't see the truck, and the lights, the stripes won't help.

I'm trying to be realistic, I haven't bought old fashioned outlets yet, so if you can convince me, I'll get GFI's, but need a good reason, other than the "code says so." My trouble is that I only have just so much money, and unfortunately, I can only spend it once.

JBP

.

VictorBravo · Jan 30, 2015

LifeLongWNYer said:
I'm trying to be realistic, I haven't bought old fashioned outlets yet, so if you can convince me, I'll get GFI's, but need a good reason, other than the "code says so." My trouble is that I only have just so much money, and unfortunately, I can only spend it once.

Being tired and careless might make the point.

Like when I draped the extension cord to a trouble light over a hot exhaust manifold while leaning over the engine and standing in a puddle.

The shock only lasted a millisecond before the light went out. I shrugged, reset the GFI, and found another way to enlighten the work.

Made me think, though....

James-W · Jan 31, 2015

Another thing to consider is what happens if the wiring is not done according to code and there is a fire? Does the insurance company have to pay the claim if the fire was caused by improper wiring that the homeowner did? I don't know the answer to that question and I don't think I would want to have to find out the hard way either.

MushCreek · Jan 31, 2015

I've just been through all of this wiring an entire new house. Here, not only do you need a lot of GFI's, but all of the outlets that are 'reachable' have to be tamper-resistant. We hate those things! For some reason, certain plugs are almost impossible to plug in. I bought all of my stuff on ebay, as tamper-resistant GFI outlets are very spendy at HD or Lowes. I think I paid about $6 a piece for brand-name GFI-TR outlets.

I'm curious as to whether I'll have to have the TR outlets in my unattached barn when I wire it. I do know that the outlets will have to be GFI. I'm also not sure if they have to be AFI. I've heard that AFI circuits don't like electric motors, especially old ones that arc a lot.

VictorBravo · Jan 31, 2015

MushCreek said:
I'm curious as to whether I'll have to have the TR outlets in my unattached barn when I wire it. I do know that the outlets will have to be GFI.

In my state they are required in detached outbuildings. My electrical inspector was a nice guy, but he said there is no wiggle room for argument. "The folks back in Olympia" have interpreted the code and it is set in stone.

But why use all tamper resistant GFI? Get one for each circuit and wire regular TR receptacles downstream of it. The ones I got at HD a few years ago were only $2 a piece.

Speedy Petey · Jan 31, 2015

MushCreek said:
I'm curious as to whether I'll have to have the TR outlets in my unattached barn when I wire it. I do know that the outlets will have to be GFI. I'm also not sure if they have to be AFI. I've heard that AFI circuits don't like electric motors, especially old ones that arc a lot.

A detached barn DOES NOT need TR or AFCI. It does need GFI protection though for receptacles.

MushCreek · Jan 31, 2015

I'm on board with the GFI; I would use them even if they weren't required. I know I can daisy chain them, too. Our jurisdiction follows NEC 2008. I'll have to sift through it to see what the requirements are for an outbuilding. I could just ask the inspector, but they are hard to get a hold of, and they tend to hedge their answers, such as, "I would pass it, but that doesn't mean the guy that inspects it will." I actually have gotten that answer, several times. I'd rather not spend the money on TR or AFCI, but if I fail, and have to go back and retrofit, then I'm out even more money, especially if I buy my equipment on-line and can't return it.

South Carolina is generally really easy-going about inspections. I had one inspection for my basement footing, and the very next one was rough framing, rough electric, and rough plumbing combined, which meant I built an entire house between inspections. They were here a grand total of 3 minutes; they didn't even shut their truck off! But then, sometimes they get picky about one little area, and won't let it go.

TheEquineFencer · Jan 31, 2015

sberry · Jan 31, 2015

I cant understand why you wouldn't want them but for special circumstances.

TheEquineFencer · Jan 31, 2015

Sometimes with older equipment or even new equipment, you can get capacitor leakage that can cause nuisance trips. It's nothing that's going to kill or even "tingle" anyone, but the GFI sees it.

VictorBravo · Jan 31, 2015

Speedy Petey said:
A detached barn DOES NOT need TR or AFCI. It does need GFI protection though for receptacles.

So it goes. Might be true in NY--not true in State of Washington.

NEC 2008 in Washington pretty plainly says TR receptacles are needed in "each detached garage with electric power." (Reading together sections 406.11 and 210.52(G)).

Maybe there's an ag building vs. garage distinction in some jurisdictions.

MushCreek said:
I'm on board with the GFI; I would use them even if they weren't required. I know I can daisy chain them, too. Our jurisdiction follows NEC 2008. I'll have to sift through it to see what the requirements are for an outbuilding.

Here is the place to start in the NEC 2008:

210.8 Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for Personnel.

FPN: See 215.9 for ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection
for personnel on feeders.

(A) Dwelling Units. All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and
20-ampere receptacles installed in the locations specified in
(1) through (8) shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter
protection for personnel.

...

(2) Garages, and also accessory buildings that have a floor
located at or below grade level not intended as habitable
rooms and limited to storage areas, work areas,
and areas of similar use.

As near as I can tell, NEC 2008 does not require arc fault protection in outbuildings. Section 210.12 lists the places required, and I don't see garages or detached buildings on the list.

But all of us internet experts are pretty much worthless for guaranteeing anything

TheEquineFencer · Jan 31, 2015

FWIW:

http://www.mikeholt.com/videodisplaynew.php?pageid=3237

Major Woody · Jun 26, 2019

My jurisdiction, Portland OR, follows the 2008 NEC.
My shop is not in a garage and is attached, not detached. The more I read of this discussion, the harder it is for me to figure out if GFCI is required.

Stuart in MN · Jun 26, 2019

Major Woody said:
My jurisdiction, Portland OR, follows the 2008 NEC.
My shop is not in a garage and is attached, not detached. The more I read of this discussion, the harder it is for me to figure out if GFCI is required.

I have a copy of the 2008 NEC. Per article 210.8.A.2, GFCI protection is required in dwelling unit garages and accessory buildings. So attached or detached it doesn't matter, you need them either way.

BigGarage · Jun 27, 2019

Major Woody said:
My jurisdiction, Portland OR, follows the 2008 NEC.
My shop is not in a garage and is attached, not detached. The more I read of this discussion, the harder it is for me to figure out if GFCI is required.

Whether they are required or not it is a great idea to use them for safety. Running other outlets downstream from the GFCI protects them also for the cost of one GFCI. That's a great deal.

Dennis

sberry · Jun 27, 2019

They are one of the best things they ever invent.

dcg9381 · Jun 27, 2019

Stuart in MN said:
So attached or detached it doesn't matter, you need them either way.

Discussion:
I assume this applies to all "regular" 15A / 20A 120V circuits.
I would not assume that it applies to "dedicated" 20A circuits, IE those designed for a refrigerator.
I would not think this applies to circuits above 20A, such as a 30A 120V RV outlet, nor 240V circuits.

Correct?

Toomanytools? · Jun 27, 2019

Major Woody said:
My jurisdiction, Portland OR, follows the 2008 NEC.
My shop is not in a garage and is attached, not detached. The more I read of this discussion, the harder it is for me to figure out if GFCI is required.

Are you sure on this? NEC map shows Oregon follows the 2017 code. Only 3 states KS, IL and IN follow 2008.
Regardless this is a thread from 2015, it's older than the newest code.
I think GFCI required for 15a and 20a circuits, not for a dedicated circuit and not on the ceiling.

exranger06 · Jun 27, 2019

Toomanytools? said:
Are you sure on this? NEC map shows Oregon follows the 2017 code. Only 3 states KS, IL and IN follow 2008.
Regardless this is a thread from 2015, it's older than the newest code.
I think GFCI required for 15a and 20a circuits, not for a dedicated circuit and not on the ceiling.

dcg9381 said:
Discussion:
I assume this applies to all "regular" 15A / 20A 120V circuits.
I would not assume that it applies to "dedicated" 20A circuits, IE those designed for a refrigerator.
I would not think this applies to circuits above 20A, such as a 30A 120V RV outlet, nor 240V circuits.

Correct?

GFCI is required for ALL 15A and 20A 120V receptacles. This includes dedicated receptacles and receptacles on the ceiling. (Although the GFCI device needs to be readily accessible for testing and resetting, so you can't mount a GFCI recep. to the ceiling. The receps. on the ceiling need to be fed from a GFCI upstream that is accessible.)

GFCI is NOT required for 120V receptacles over 20A, such as your 30A RV example, and they're not required for 240V receptacles.

dcg9381 · Jun 27, 2019

Discussion - questions:

I believe in 2008 there was an exception for dedicated circuits:

GFCI protection is not required for receptacles that are not readily accessible, such as a ceiling-mounted receptacle for a garage door opener. Nor are they required for a receptacle on a dedicated branch circuit located and identified for a cord-and-plug-connected appliance, such as a refrigerator or freezer.

I believe from 210.8(A).

Perhaps this does not apply as these are rules for "Dwelling Units" - so no exception applies to garages or accessory buildings?

100% agreement that GFCI is a good idea.

Note, in my area, doesn't matter what the version of NEC the state follows. It matters what version of NEC the inspector (typically city jurisdiction) follows... If such inspection is required.

exranger06 · Jun 27, 2019

There used to be exceptions for those receptacles, but those exceptions went away and now all receptacles need GFCI protection. I don't remember which code cycle the exceptions went away.

dcg9381 · Jun 27, 2019

I've read that too (no cite), but OP is required to follow 2008 NEC, so the question seems to be what is the OP required to do.

It looks like 2017 expanded GFCI to include:

210.8(B) – GFCI protection of single-phase receptacles rated 150 volts (V) to ground or less expanded to include all 50 amperes (A) or less, instead of 20 A or less. Also, 3-phase receptacles 150 V to ground or less and 100 A or less.

210.8(B)(9) & (10) – GFCI protection of receptacles expanded from dwelling unit crawl spaces and unfinished basements to now include those same locations in non-dwelling units.

This electrical stuff is getting expensive..
Basically we are headed toward everything being arc-fault/ground-fault protected regardless..

Major Woody · Jun 27, 2019

You all are right. We do follow the 2017 NEC, not the 2008.

I was seeking to use only GFCI breakers instead of GFCI outlets. If I have to provide GFCI protection on these six circuits then I won't be able to use the tandem breakers I was hoping to use, and that will put me over capacity on the box.
I agree GFCI protection is very worthwhile and a good thing, just didn't want to run out of space in the panel. I'll go with GFCI outlets for those circuits call it good.

Thanks everyone for all the replies. I need to start a separate thread on my project.

Toomanytools? · Jun 28, 2019

Toomanytools? said:
Are you sure on this? NEC map shows Oregon follows the 2017 code. Only 3 states KS, IL and IN follow 2008.
Regardless this is a thread from 2015, it's older than the newest code.
I think GFCI required for 15a and 20a circuits, not for a dedicated circuit and not on the ceiling.

Sorry I stated this wrong, no GFCI outlet on the ceiling but fed from an accessible GFCI outlet. I for some reason keep thinking a refrigerator doesn't need one, that is not correct, because what is keeping someone from removing the refer and plugging in a Skilsaw? So thanks exranger for clearing that up.

inphx · Jul 1, 2019

GFCI Prices here are seem good. but they are not the childproof kind.
https://www.fruitridgetools.com/ele...RcmgmjD2840lvF5pU-pseOPISvr9amfAaAuhwEALw_wcB

dcg9381 · Jul 2, 2019

Thanks for the reference. Better than Amazon (hadn't factored in the shipping).
Like others, I'm wiring a subpanel that will have outlets in a "wet area" - was able to get Siemens breakers down to the $30 range or so (120V @20A), I'd just rather do them that way...

Appreciate all the discussion on this topic.

Clarification... are *all* outlets in shop required to be GFCI?

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Clarification... are all outlets in shop required to be GFCI?