Torque number with Anti-seize

wxm · Nov 30, 2013

Long story short, I heard a noise from the front left wheel. Took the wheel off and this was what I found - missing a top sliding pin bolt. That was scary!

I always torque the bolts to the spec. The only thing I could think that might potentially cause this is that I applied anti-seize last time when I put the bolt on (replacing the front axle). So do you guys avoid using the anti-seize or you adjusting the torque spec accordingly when apply anti-seize, if so by how much?

jjjrmx5 · Nov 30, 2013

wxm said:
Long story short, I heard a noise from the front left wheel. Took the wheel off and this was what I found - missing a top sliding pin bolt. That was scary!

I always torque the bolts to the spec. The only thing I could think that might potentially cause this is that I applied anti-seize last time when I put the bolt on (replacing the front axle). So do you guys avoid using the anti-seize or you adjusting the torque spec accordingly when apply anti-seize, if so by how much?

Anti-sieze?

Looks like that bolt should have been held in by blue Loctite and not anti-seize. Look at the blue residue.

I use the correct slide lube for caliper slides and then torque the slide bolts to spec. Most slide bolts I see come with the blue Loctite already on them on the Euro cars. If not on the bolt I apply my own based upon the car and the specs.

And yes, anti-sieze or any lubricant causes the torque value to change on a fastener.
Anti-seize---not so much.

mrjaw14 · Nov 30, 2013

The torque spec is dry with no anti-seize, which acts as a lubricant. When used, all you need is a very little amount. Would be hard to guess what the torque spec should be with lube. I torque a lot, but those I just do the German goodentight...

y20dth · Nov 30, 2013

All the specs I have seen concerning these type of calipers state that you need to use new bolts, and those bolts just happen to have the dry loctite allready on them.
If you don't have new bolts, use normal strength loctite, torqued accordingly.

If used and applied correctly, the loctite will "act as an anti-seize", because it will prevent the threads from corroding.
(have a look at the Henkel website who produces or markets loctite, there is a ton of information regarding these products, usually a lot more accurate then on any internet-forum).

Oh, and anti-seize is NOT al lubricant....

basspro · Nov 30, 2013

Coefficient friction of a grade 8 bolt is 1.17. Multiply that by the coefficient of .8 for C5A antiseize. Then multiply that by your dry torque value, that is the torque required IF you use C5A. Neverseize has a coefficient of .45 or something very close btw.

basspro · Nov 30, 2013

BTW, antiseize is great stuff in general, but I wouldnt use it as slide lube, it will get gummy. It works well for things you dont intend on moving for a long time.

zkling · Nov 30, 2013

The problem with lubricated threads is there are so many factors that go into play, type of anti seize, amount applied, where applied, etc. IIRC there is a rough value of ~70% of dry torque value. Check the spec sheet on the specific anti seize you are using for directions on reduction in torque.

Agree with jjjrmx though, if anything I might use a drop or two of blue locktite on those.

y20dth said:
Oh, and anti-seize is NOT al lubricant....

The manufactures would disagree with you.

JonnFX · Nov 30, 2013

mrjaw14 · Nov 30, 2013

y20dth said:
Oh, and anti-seize is NOT al lubricant....

Um yes it is...not its primary function, but will function as a lubricant

y20dth · Nov 30, 2013

zkling said:
The problem with lubricated threads is there are so many factors that go into play, type of anti seize, amount applied, where applied, etc. IIRC there is a rough value of ~70% of dry torque value. Check the spec sheet on the specific anti seize you are using for directions on reduction in torque.

Agree with jjjrmx though, if anything I might use a drop or two of blue locktite on those.

The manufactures would disagree with you.

Ok, I'll bite.
I dare you to post an official information from ANY bearing manufacturer that says to lubricate their bearings with anti-seize.

zkling · Nov 30, 2013

y20dth said:
Ok, I'll bite.
I dare you to post an official information from ANY bearing manufacturer that says to lubricate their bearings with anti-seize.

That is a pretty ignorant statement. Just because it is not used in bearings does not mean it is not a lubricant.

You made the general comment stating that "Anti-seize is not a lubricant"; it indeed is, is it used in bearings, no not typically, but it still is classified as a lubricant. Heck, KY jelly is a lubricant. Would you use that in bearings?

jjjrmx5 · Nov 30, 2013

y20dth said:
Oh, and anti-seize is NOT al lubricant....

Yes it is.

Loctite, if allowed to dry to specs may not be but can vary torque specs.

Wet tube based anti-seize. Yep.

Sorry.
The truth hurts.

wafrederick · Nov 30, 2013

Anti-seize also helps out when removing a part,oxygen sensors are this way when reusing if in good shape.Comes apart easier for the next person.

wxm · Nov 30, 2013

wafrederick said:
Anti-seize also helps out when removing a part,oxygen sensors are this way when reusing if in good shape.Comes apart easier for the next person.

Yup, that was the reason for using the anti seize in the fist place. Though, I agree with you guys, I should have used the locktite in this caes

Coolguy83 · Nov 30, 2013

Use only 75 percent of the torque when using never seize. That's what I was taught.

rhuff86 · Nov 30, 2013

y20dth;3539665 Oh said:
So the large font that reads "lubricant" means what exactly?
http://www.walmart.com/ip/20056284?...43201356&wl4=&wl5=pla&wl6=50564658756&veh=sem

Skin · Nov 30, 2013

wxm said:
I always torque the bolts to the spec. The only thing I could think that might potentially cause this is that I applied anti-seize last time when I put the bolt on (replacing the front axle). So do you guys avoid using the anti-seize or you adjusting the torque spec accordingly when apply anti-seize, if so by how much?

Depends on the bolt and how bad it was to remove. Some are far worse than others. If the bolt comes out and the shank is relatively corrosion free it goes back in dry. To add to that if im adding it anywhere on the caliper fasteners im generally adding the anti-seize coating to the neck/unthreaded area above the threads where it is most likely to corrode and not to the actual threads themselves. Blue Loctite isn't a bad idea, as suggested, but is not required by everyone.

I would never under-torque caliper fasteners anti-seize or no anti-seize. Those caliper bolts in particular are usually only about 20-30 foot pounds.

neonnblack · Nov 30, 2013

Antiseize is a favorite lubricant amongst vise fanatics.

Nanashi · Nov 30, 2013

Its a brake caliper just make it tight and move on

nicksnothereman · Dec 1, 2013

jjjrmx5 said:
Anti-sieze?

Looks like that bolt should have been held in by blue Loctite and not anti-seize. Look at the blue residue.

I use the correct slide lube for caliper slides and then torque the slide bolts to spec. Most slide bolts I see come with the blue Loctite already on them on the Euro cars. If not on the bolt I apply my own based upon the car and the specs.

And yes, anti-sieze or any lubricant causes the torque value to change on a fastener.
Anti-seize---not so much.

Yeah, caliper bolts are held on with blue thread locker (or green). Technically you should torque them but it's low torque like 12 foot pounds or something similar. Hand tight would be acceptable with the thread locker.

OP you put caliper lube on the pins (sleeves) themselves and the boots not the bolt. You use thread locker (not red bro!).

I use pro seal blue btw. Super cheap works great...when I can find it.

CWP1616L · Dec 1, 2013

I use brake caliper grease on the caliper slide pins including the threaded portion. I don't use a torque wrench on anything unless it involves a gasket.

Lotek · Dec 1, 2013

CWP1616L said:
I use brake caliper grease on the caliper slide pins including the threaded portion. I don't use a torque wrench on anything unless it involves a gasket.

This is wrong on several levels...aside from the already settled (I hope) loctite issue, there are many places where proper torque is critical that don't involve a gasket.

Danglerb · Dec 1, 2013

Torquing to spec seems like a skill that is only slowly working its way through the food chain. Some stuff is fine either way, other stuff not.

fxgmech · Dec 1, 2013

JonnFX said:

Antiseize compound is a one-time lubricant for stationary parts. Get it? You only need it to move one time when you unscrew the threads, repair the part, and then reapply the antiseize when you reassemble. Great stuff, I use it every day :beer:

.
Thread locking compound works for keeping the bolt from falling out after it works loose from shear vibration (you shook me all night long :evil:

), heat, or metal fatigue (too many compression ignition cycles before somebody ran the engine out of oil).
BTW, the only thing that keeps any bolt tight is stretch, and then only until it fatigues and loses the ability to spring back to shape.

monkeyspanners · Dec 1, 2013

Just had new disks/rotors fitted on my work van, had genuine merc parts and the new caliper bolts came with blue loctite already on them. Also had a little sachet of grease for the sliders etc.

I would torque anything i didn't want to come undone or shear off while driving.

CJKaz · Dec 1, 2013

The torque required for a bolted joint design comes from a long string of calculations, but boils down to a simple linear equation.

T = Wp x K x dn
Where T=torque; Wp=fastener preload; K=torque coeff; dn=diameter

The factor that changes with dry vs lubricated fasteners is the "torque coefficient" and is published for a variety of cases. Various values exist, mine are taken from DuPont Engineering Specification (10 pages of calcs). Examples:

Dry steel fasteners: K=0.20
Lightly oiled steel: K=0.15
Cad Plated: K=0.14
Anti Seize on steel: K=0.13 (as published by Bostik for their Never Seez products)
Graphite & mineral oil: K=0.10

Using Never Seize versus dry uncoated steel, multiply the specified torque by 0.65.

A very light coating on the threads only to prevent corrosion and/or galling is all that's needed. As is the case with most Anti Seize applications, a little goes a long way.

beamrider · Dec 1, 2013

basspro said:
Coefficient friction of a grade 8 bolt is 1.17. Multiply that by the coefficient of .8 for C5A antiseize. Then multiply that by your dry torque value, that is the torque required IF you use C5A. Neverseize has a coefficient of .45 or something very close btw.

CJKaz said:
The torque required for a bolted joint design comes from a long string of calculations, but boils down to a simple linear equation.

T = Wp x K x dn
Where T=torque; Wp=fastener preload; K=torque coeff; dn=diameter

The factor that changes with dry vs lubricated fasteners is the "torque coefficient" and is published for a variety of cases. Various values exist, mine are taken from DuPont Engineering Specification (10 pages of calcs). Examples:

Dry steel fasteners: K=0.20
Lightly oiled steel: K=0.15
Cad Plated: K=0.14
Anti Seize on steel: K=0.13 (as published by Bostik for their Never Seez products)
Graphite & mineral oil: K=0.10

Using Never Seize versus dry uncoated steel, multiply the specified torque by 0.65.

A very light coating on the threads only to prevent corrosion and/or galling is all that's needed. As is the case with most Anti Seize applications, a little goes a long way.

Talk about learning something new every day! I have to admit, this is pretty damn impressive, and not something I ever really thought about.

wxm · Dec 1, 2013

beamrider said:
Talk about learning something new every day! I have to admit, this is pretty damn impressive, and not something I ever really thought about.

+1.

I thought I needed to increase the torque number when anit-seise is used.

JeffZ · Dec 1, 2013

To me reducing it (as in multiplying by 0.65) makes more sense because the threads are (slightly) more slippery / less friction, so a smaller amount of twist (torque) will produce the same amount of stretch.

Wakefield · Dec 1, 2013

Say two fasteners get torqued,everything the same except one has blue loctite, one has nothing. Is it possible that after several years in the weather and/or salt that the loctite fastener actually comes off easier than the other one because of a protective effect from corrosion and/or galling of the threads? Could the loctite act like an antiseize?
Is the new lower strength loctite (purple?) worth thinking about? Does it still fight vibrational loosening?

CWP1616L · Dec 1, 2013

Lotek said:
This is wrong on several levels...aside from the already settled (I hope) loctite issue, there are many places where proper torque is critical that don't involve a gasket.

Can you give an example?

yaidunno · Dec 1, 2013

CWP1616L said:
Can you give an example?

Lug nuts, for one.

JonnFX · Dec 1, 2013

Connecting rod bolts, crankshaft main cap bolts, crankshaft damper bolt,...................................................................................

kenburkholz · Dec 2, 2013

I have always been told that torque specs are for lubricated threads, On this application I would think Loctite or a lock nut would be the answer, Ken.

nicksnothereman · Dec 2, 2013

Lotek said:
This is wrong on several levels...aside from the already settled (I hope) loctite issue, there are many places where proper torque is critical that don't involve a gasket.

He might not do a lot of critical work. :dunno:

I can think of a couple of examples where it isn't really going to matter. Angular torque on plugs, throttle body, screw hose clamps, exhaust (to a degree (post cat), sensors, interior/panel work, some mounting bolts. Depends on who's doing it and how many times they want to re-do it. :lol:

I'll tell you what, if I don't use a torque wrench I will ALWAYS use a thread locker on that bolt. Last time I did this was a bottom radiator mount m14 head screw in type (no nut) on my own car. If you use thread locker on these type of bolts you can hand tighten without much of an issue. I wouldn't do it with 1/4" though, I use 3/8" and hammer past hand torque with a deadblow about 3 degrees. It's a good temporary solution if you don't have the right tool to properly torque a bolt on a non-rotational assembly; just torque it within a couple of days. :lol:

Sometimes I have those issues because I try to limit blind purchases.

Skin · Dec 2, 2013

yaidunno said:
Lug nuts, for one.

I've always anti-seized lug threads, and the area of the "hat" that the wheel contacts as well. You can reduce the torque to compensate or not, I've never had a problem. Most important thing with wheels is that the torque is uniform and at least in the ball park.

nicksnothereman · Dec 2, 2013

yaidunno said:
Lug nuts, for one.

Meh. Not at home. How many people you see breaking out the torque wrench when putting on a donut or rotating wheels?

I know I know, floating rotors, and all that jazz but people don't really do it. They just torque it "tight" with a lug wrench. Different strokes for different folks.

(I do use a torque wrench for lug nuts though I didn't always do it).

nicksnothereman · Dec 2, 2013

Skin said:
I've always anti-seized lug threads, and the area of the "hat" that the wheel contacts as well. You can reduce the torque to compensate or not, I've never had a problem. Most important thing with wheels is that the torque is uniform and at least in the ball park.

By the time they rust through (or just snap) in your area you're going to probably need a new hub anyway. If you're talking about a modern vehicle with non serviceable/replaceable bearings. :dunno:

Modern wheel bearing hubs last what 7 years/70k (if that) before the clickety clack maybe? (on gms at least). Fresh lugs. Boom!

Skin · Dec 2, 2013

nicksnothereman said:
By the time they rust through (or just snap) in your area you're going to probably need a new hub anyway. If you're talking about a modern vehicle with non serviceable/replaceable bearings.

Modern wheel bearing hubs last what 7 years/70k (if that) before the clickety clack maybe? (on gms at least). Fresh lugs. Boom!

Hub? Im talking about the hat of the rotor that the aluminum wheels sit against when they're tightened. Corrosion there and the wheel needs to be smacked off when you go to remove it again. That's the other area I anti-seize.

955point9cummins · Dec 2, 2013

Most people don't know how to properly use a torque wrench either. I was one of them up until about a year ago. I would always tighten a bolt down and then throw the torque wrench on it. If it clicked, it was good. Wrong wrong wrong. If it clicks without moving the bolt at all it could very well be over torqued. There are minimum and maximum torque specs.

Torque number with Anti-seize

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